An Agnostic Manifesto

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An Agnostic Manifesto

At least we know what we don't know.

By Ron Rosenbaum
Posted Monday, June 28, 2010, at 2:03 PM ET


http://www.slate.com/id/2258484/pagenum/all/#p2


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Let's get one thing straight:

Agnosticism is not some kind of weak-tea atheism. Agnosticism is not atheism or theism. It is radical skepticism, doubt in the possibility of certainty, opposition to the unwarranted certainties that atheism and theism offer.

Agnostics have mostly been depicted as doubters of religious belief, but recently, with the rise of the "New Atheism"—the high-profile denunciations of religion in best-sellers from scientists such as Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, and polemicists, such as my colleague Christopher Hitchens—I believe it's important to define a distinct identity for agnosticism, to hold it apart from the certitudes of both theism and atheism.
I would not go so far as to argue that there's a "new agnosticism" on the rise. But I think it's time for a new agnosticism, one that takes on the New Atheists. Indeed agnostics see atheism as "a theism"—as much a faith-based creed as the most orthodox of the religious variety.

Faith-based atheism? Yes, alas. Atheists display a credulous and childlike faith, worship a certainty as yet unsupported by evidence—the certainty that they can or will be able to explain how and why the universe came into existence. (And some of them can behave as intolerantly to heretics who deviate from their unproven orthodoxy as the most unbending religious Inquisitor.)

Faced with the fundamental question: "Why is there something rather than nothing?" atheists have faith that science will tell us eventually. Most seem never to consider that it may well be a philosophic, logical impossibility for something to create itself from nothing. But the question presents a fundamental mystery that has bedeviled (so to speak) philosophers and theologians from Aristotle to Aquinas. Recently scientists have tried to answer it with theories of "multiverses" and "vacuums filled with quantum potentialities," none of which strikes me as persuasive. (For a review of the centrality, and insolubility so far, of the something-from-nothing question, I recommend this podcast interview with Jim Holt, who is writing a book on the subject.)

Having recently spent two weeks in Cambridge (the one in the United Kingdom) on a Templeton-Cambridge Fellowship, being lectured to by believers and nonbelievers, I found myself feeling more than anything unconvinced by certainties on either side. And feeling the need for solidarity and identity with other doubters. Thus my call for a revivified agnosticism. Our T-shirt will read: I just don't know. (I should probably say here that I still consider myself Jewish in everything but the believing in God part, which, I'll admit, others may take exception to.)

Let me make clear that I accept most of the New Atheist's criticism of religious bad behavior over the centuries, and of theology itself. I just don't accept turning science into a new religion until it can show it has all the answers, which it hasn't, and probably never will.
Atheists have no evidence—and certainly no proof!—that science will ever solve the question of why there is something rather than nothing. Just because other difficult-seeming problems have been solved does not mean all difficult problems will always be solved.

And so atheists really exist on the same superstitious plane as Thomas Aquinas, who tried to prove by logic the possibility of creation "ex nihilo" (from nothing). His eventual explanation entailed a Supreme Being standing outside of time and space somehow endowing it with existence (and interfering once in a while) without explaining what caused this source of "uncaused causation" to be created in the first place.
This is—or should be—grade-school stuff, but many of the New Atheists seemed to have stopped thinking since their early grade-school science-fair triumphs. I'm thinking in particular here of the ones who like to call themselves "the brights." (Or have they given up on that comically unfortunate term?) The "brights" seem like rather dim bulbs when it comes to this question. It's amazing how the New Atheists boastfully stride over this pons asinorum as if it weren't there.

You know about the pons asinorum, right? The so-called "bridge of asses" described by medieval scholars? Initially it referred to Euclid's Fifth Theorem, the one in which geometry really gets difficult and the sheep are separated from the asses among students, and the asses can't get across the bridge at all. Since then the phrase has been applied to any difficult theorem that the asses can't comprehend. And when it comes to the question of why is there something rather than nothing, the "New Atheists" still can't get their asses over the bridge, although many of them are too ignorant to realize that. This sort of ignorance, a condition called "anosognosia," which my friend Errol Morris is exploring in depth on his New York Times blog, means you don't know what you don't know. Or you don't know how stupid you are.

In fact, I challenge any atheist, New or old, to send me their answer to the question: "Why is there something rather than nothing?" I can't wait for the evasions to pour forth. Or even the evidence that this question ever could be answered by science and logic.

Alas, agnostics still suffer from association with atheists by theists, and with theists by atheists. So let us be more precise about what agnostics are and aren't. They aren't disguised creationists. In fact, the term agnostic was coined in 1869 by one of Darwin's most fervent followers, Thomas Henry Huxley, famously known as "Darwin's bulldog" for his defense of evolutionary theory. Here's how he defined his agnosticism:
This principle may be stated in various ways but they all amount to this: that it is wrong for a man to say that he is certain of the objective truth of any proposition unless he can produce evidence which logically justifies that certainty.
Huxley originally defined his agnosticism against the claims of religion, but it also applies to the claims of science in its know-it-all mode. I should point out that I accept all that science has proven with evidence and falsifiable hypotheses but don't believe there is evidence or falsifiable certitude that science can prove or disprove everything. Agnosticism doesn't contend there are no certainties; it simply resists unwarranted untested or untestable certainties.

Agnosticism doesn't fear uncertainty. It doesn't cling like a child in the dark to the dogmas of orthodox religion or atheism. Agnosticism respects and celebrates uncertainty and has been doing so since before quantum physics revealed the uncertainty that lies at the very groundwork of being.
The circumstances in which I found the quotes from Huxley are worth noting since they point up the undeserving misapprehension of agnosticism as some subcomponent of atheism.

I came upon the Huxley essay in a book called The Agnostic Reader, a lone nod to agnosticism in an entire yardlong shelf of smug New Atheist polemics at a local Borders. The book's latest essay dates back to 1949. Time for an agnosticism revival, I say.
Why has agnosticism fallen out of favor? New Atheism offers the glamour of fraudulent rebelliousness, while agnosticism has only the less eye-catching attractions of humility. The willingness to say "I don't know" is less attention-getting than "I know, I know. I know it all."

Humility in the face of mystery has been a recurrent theme of mine. I wrote most recently about the problem of consciousness and found myself allied with the agnostic group of philosophers known as the Mysterians, who argue that we are epistemically, flat-out unable to know the nature of consciousness while being within consciousness. I'm reluctant to call agnostics Mysterians, much as I like the proto-punk ballad "96 Tears" by ? and the Mysterians. But I do like that agnosticism, which in fact can be more combative than its image, does have a sort of punk, disruptive, troublemaker side.

I was once called a "troublemaker" by no less than Terry Eagleton, once the wunderkind neo-Marxist post-modernist guru who ruined the minds of several generations of comp lit students and who has now turned into a promoter of a New Religiosity, with books such as Reason, Faith, and Revolution and On Evil.
We had an exchange over a dinner at the Harvard Club after he had given a talk there promoting his new religiosity, which seemed to me just a more mystified version of Aquinas' uncaused causation, the Supreme Being standing outside of time and space somehow bringing them into being. I asked him over dinner what it meant to stand outside time and space and how such a Supreme Being got there, and he sought refuge in evasive mysticism by asking loftily, "What is time?" To which I replied, "You go first."
"Troublemaker," he muttered to the woman sitting next to him. Yes, agnostics are troublemakers!

But I was troubled by the lack of intellectual ferment in the agnostic world. It's true the works of David Berlinski, most recently The Devil's Delusion,take on the new atheist science from an agnostic point of view. And recently there was a stir occasioned by Paul Kurtz, the much-admired former editor of the agnostic/atheist publication The Skeptical Inquirer who had taken to the pages of the secular humanist magazine Free Inquiry to attack the "true believer atheists," whom he called "true unbelievers" for behaving just like religious zealots:
We need to ask: are there fundamentalist "true unbelievers"? Many secular-atheists in twentieth-century totalitarian societies were indeed fundamentalists in the sense that they sought to impose a strict ideological code and willingly used state power and brutal violence against anyone who dissented. Stalinism is the best example of the readiness to punish deviation in the name of "the holy secular doctrine," which the commissars in the gulags used to enforce obedience. Fortunately, the extremes of this form of doctrinal terror have declined with the end of the cold war.
Nonetheless, there still lingers among some true unbelievers an unflinching conviction toward atheism—God does not exist, period; they are convinced of that! This kind of dogmatic attitude holds that this and only this is true and that anyone who deviates from it is a fool. This insults a great number of reflective believers.
John Dewey, the noted American philosopher, observed that "The aggressive atheist seems to have something in common with traditional superstition. … The exclusive preoccupation of both militant atheism and supernaturalism is with man in isolation from nature." [A Common Faith]
This argument that some atheists had become "true unbelievers" provoked a war of words (both online and in print) between atheists and agnostics that was valuable in distinguishing the two.
Then the writer John Farrell referred me to the agnosticism blog of John Wilkins, an Australian scientist, which introduced me to the fact there is an ongoing debate between the New Atheists and the Newer Agnostics. When I e-mailed Wilkins about what the most important points of contention in these debates were, he sent me back this provocative five-point response, which I'll reprint below with my own annotations:
"For now my objections to the "New" Atheists (who are a vocal subset of the Old Atheists, and who I call Affirmative Atheists) are the same as my objections to organized religion:
1. Too much of the rhetoric and sociality is tribal: Us and Them."
So true. The verbal vitriol and vituperation that self-proclaimed New Atheists indulge in in the comments section of crusading atheist and Selfish Gene author Richard Dawkins' blog recently caused Dawkins himself, horrified by the not excessively "bright" mob he'd created, to shut down his comments section. (The concern was attacks on my fellow Templeton Cambridge fellow Chris Mooney who is a pro-science atheist but not an "incompatibilist," a nonsense term I don't have the patience to explain but for which they wanted his blood.)
2. [The New Atheism] presumes to know what it cannot. More on this below.
3. As a consequence of 1 and 2, it tries to co-opt Agnosticism as a form of "weak" Atheism. I think people have the right to self-identify as they choose, and I am neither an atheist nor a faith-booster, both charges having been made by atheists (sometimes the same atheists).
Cue James Brown chords: Say it loud! We're agnostic and proud!
4. Knowability: We are all atheist about some things: Christians are Vishnu-atheists, I am a Thor-atheist, and so on. [Which is why the "are you agnostic about fairies?" rejoinder is just dumb.] But it is a long step from making existence claims about one thing (fairies, Thor) to a general denial of the existence of all possible deities. I do not think the god of, say John Paul II exists. But I cannot speak to the God of Leibniz. No evidence decides that.
Fascinating. He dismisses Catholicism, but he won't deny outright the arguments of a philosophical believer such as Liebniz. I have been following with interest the argument of neo-Leibniz logical positivist defenders of the existence of God, such as Alvin Plantinga, and his critics, such as John Hick.
5. But does that mean no *possible* evidence could decide it [existence or nonexistence of God]? That's a much harder argument to make. Huxley thought it was in principle Unknowable, but that's a side effect of too much German Romanticism in his tea. I can conceive of logically possible states of affairs in which a God is knowable, and I can conceive of cases in which it is certain that no God exists.
Wilkins' suggestion is that there are really two claims agnosticism is concerned with is important: Whether God exists or not is one. Whether we can know the answer is another. Agnosticism is not for the simple-minded and is not as congenial as atheism and theism are.
The courage to admit we don't know and may never know what we don't know is more difficult than saying, sure, we know.
As Errol Morris put it in the conclusion of one his epic multipart New York Times examination of anosognosia—not knowing what we don't know:
We have "the desire but not the wherewithal to make sense of experience. One might easily forsee that this would lead to unending unmitigated frustration and suffering. But here's where self-deception [and] anosognosia ... step in. We wouldn't be able to make sense of anything, but we would never be aware of that fact."
Like I said, it's complicated. But the world has suffered enough from oversimplifications. The agnostic moment has come.

_______________________________________________________________

Life is a mystery and some questions can never be answered.
Live with it :)
 
This principle may be stated in various ways but they all amount to this: that it is wrong for a man to say that he is certain of the objective truth of any proposition unless he can produce evidence which logically justifies that certainty.

Faith is a part of human nature (often called the faith instinct). Weather or not that faith is displayed in the area of metaphysics (as with Atheism or Theism) or in some other area, everyone applies faith in a multitude of ways.

Man is homo religiosus, by ‘nature’ religious: as much as he needs food to eat or air to breathe, he needs a faith for living
-Will Herberg
 
I enjoy Rosenbaum, I have read a lot of his stuff– along with this piece today (thanks '04)… And well, too much Slate in general…

(anyone who can write ‘the awfulness of Billy Joel' is OK in my book – another great Slate article)

I thought this passage was exceptionally interesting… It sort of takes the difference between agnostic and atheists do down to a couple of simple thoughts….

I just don't accept turning science into a new religion until it can show it has all the answers, which it hasn't, and probably never will. Atheists have no evidence—and certainly no proof!—that science will ever solve the question of why there is something rather than nothing. Just because other difficult-seeming problems have been solved does not mean all difficult problems will always be solved.

However, doesn’t this also imply ‘leap of faith’ as far as expecting science not to have the answer to why there is something rather than nothing?

Imagine how the world looked to someone from the middle ages – now plop them here, in the 21st century. Suddenly science has the answers to incredible questions – questions they thought would never be answered – in fact science has answers to questions they didn’t even have at that time.

To believe that science will never, ever have the answer to ‘why’ I think places you within Morris’ group of ‘you don't know how stupid you are’ along with the ‘New Atheists’ that Rosenbaum labels as dim bulbs.

If you go by history – this is just another problem. Difficult, yes, but scientists have answered difficult problems in the past, seemingly unanswerable ones. To basically discount that this won’t be answered in time, is a type of faith in itself. The faith that there is something that science won’t be able to answer.

Rosenbaum's claim...
Just because other difficult-seeming problems have been solved does not mean all difficult problems will always be solved.​
has an equally strong argument on the other side -
Because a larger and larger percentage of difficult-seeming problems, or 'impossible' ones, have been solved in the past, it should be allowed that this seeming difficult problem will be solved in the future.​

Why is he choosing option A over option B?

Could it be 'faith'?
 
Some things are inherently beyond the scope of science. Unfortunately, science has become a secular faith to some.
 
Some things are inherently beyond the scope of science. Unfortunately, science has become a secular faith to some.

Why are some things 'inherently' beyond the scope of science? History has shown that many things that we thought were 'unanswerable' have been answered by science. We thought them beyond science. Why chose this particular question as 'unanswerable'?

Could it be if this is answered by science - then agnostics have to make a choice - and not be fence sitters? Diety or no...

You can still believe in God if the question of how something came from nothing is answered by science. Or you can continue to deny 'higher power'. However, it becomes more difficult to sit on the fence.
 
Why are some things 'inherently' beyond the scope of science?

Because of the massive scale, huge time requirements or other factors inherent in some phenomenon that make them impossible to empirically verify. If something cannot be empirically verified, it is not science. Unfortunately, the trend is to turn to computer models, but computer models are no substitute for empirical verification. Empirical verification is necessary, under any conception of science, for the findings to be scientific.

You cannot empirically verify Darwinian evolution because of the extreme amount of time necessary for the phenomenon to occur (centuries).

You cannot empirically verify the Big Bang because of the extreme distance in time from the even occurring and the massive scale of the thing.

Quantum mechanics is speculation justified with computer models.

There are inherent limits to science and it is foolish to ignore them. Anecdotal arguments don't negate those limitations. When science starts being viewed as infallible, it becomes a matter of faith and leads to dangerous policy.
 
Man is homo religiosus, by ‘nature’ religious: as much as he needs food to eat or air to breathe, he needs a faith for living
-Will Herberg


Animals need food and air and water to live but not faith.

Faith is not nessesary for life but provides some comfort in the face of mortality.
 
Because of the massive scale, huge time requirements or other factors inherent in some phenomenon that make them impossible to empirically verify. If something cannot be empirically verified, it is not science. Unfortunately, the trend is to turn to computer models, but computer models are no substitute for empirical verification. Empirical verification is necessary, under any conception of science, for the findings to be scientific.

When I was in highschool I wrote a paper on quantum physics demonstrating the possibility of the existence of God. Scientifically speaking, if we had the physical and scientific capabilities, anything could be verified empirically. For the time being, until scientific capability catches up, computer models and the like demonstrate theories based upon things that are known and can be proven using empirical evidence. For instance, a Bose-Einstein condensate was first proposed in 1924, but none could be produced until 1938. It was proposed given the physics as observable given the scientific capabilities of the day. It met all the laws of physics and was verifiable on the merit of these other related discoveries and laws, much like computer or scientific models are today. No real scientist asks you to accept anything on "faith".

You cannot empirically verify Darwinian evolution because of the extreme amount of time necessary for the phenomenon to occur (centuries).

We can observe evolution in micro-organisms on a short time scale, and we can find evidence of evolution among fossils and recorded history. Even in the past few thousand years, homo sapiens have evolved, as have many animals.

You cannot empirically verify the Big Bang because of the extreme distance in time from the even occurring and the massive scale of the thing.

If you view light and radiation at the edge of the known universe, you know that that light is 14 billion years old since it is 14 billion light years away. Comparing that to what is visible at closer and closer intervals gives us an accurate history of the universe. We can only see 14 billion light years away because nothing existed prior to that time, therefore for anything further away than 14 billion light years, the light has not had a chance to reach us yet.

Quantum mechanics is speculation justified with computer models.

I could point you to a lot of very promising research on quantum manipulation of atoms, including quantum computing. Extreme states of matter justify most of the theories in quantum mechanics. If you like, I could dig up a bunch of stuff.

There are inherent limits to science and it is foolish to ignore them. Anecdotal arguments don't negate those limitations. When science starts being viewed as infallible, it becomes a matter of faith and leads to dangerous policy.

There are limits to science, though those limits shrink daily. It is foolish to ignore science on the basis that it is not infallible.
 
Man is homo religiosus, by ‘nature’ religious: as much as he needs food to eat or air to breathe, he needs a faith for living
-Will Herberg


Animals need food and air and water to live but not faith.

Faith is not nessesary for life but provides some comfort in the face of mortality.

It was an analogy. You are not supposed to take it literally.

And weather or not animals need faith is irrelevant. Herberg was talking about MAN.
 
Because of the massive scale, huge time requirements or other factors inherent in some phenomenon that make them impossible to empirically verify. If something cannot be empirically verified, it is not science. Unfortunately, the trend is to turn to computer models, but computer models are no substitute for empirical verification. Empirical verification is necessary, under any conception of science, for the findings to be scientific.

You cannot empirically verify Darwinian evolution because of the extreme amount of time necessary for the phenomenon to occur (centuries).

You cannot empirically verify the Big Bang because of the extreme distance in time from the even occurring and the massive scale of the thing.

Quantum mechanics is speculation justified with computer models.

However, couldn't it be we just don't have the correct 'tools'. In your example, science couldn't 'prove' sub atomic particles until they had the 'tool' of the collider to show them. A piece of science fiction - if you would view it from the time of Galileo.

Time travel will just be another 'tool' in the scientist's arsenal when it comes to be. (Currently science fiction - certainly easily could be science fact in the future). Evolution will be a piece of cake to prove then, since some don't believe the current 'In any system where there is hereditary information, slight alterations of that information, and a selection pressure for the best system of hereditary information, evolution will occur'. Basically - DNA changes over time - therefore - evolution occurs. Scientific fact, unless of course, you are of the same ilk that told science in the case of sub atomic particles - "I know, I know, you can 'prove' that they exist because of the actions and reactions of them, but that doesn't prove anything until I see one." Evolution is proven to occur - but, until what - you see it happening, you won't believe it? That is fine - time travel and speeded up video will take care of that.

Will we be able to travel back to beyond the 'big bang' - why not?

There are inherent limits to science and it is foolish to ignore them. Anecdotal arguments don't negate those limitations. When science starts being viewed as infallible, it becomes a matter of faith and leads to dangerous policy.
Science is often proved to be infallible - how many 'cures for cancer' have there been, that fall by the wayside? That won't be going away if science proves how something can come from nothing.

However, haven't we run the course on the other side - that 'faith' is infallible?

Don't you think that Rosenbaum is also basing his 'agnostic' belief on a type of faith?
 
Hey, 04, now tell us what YOU believe.

Are you of the ilk of those who say, "I don't know, and I don't wanna know" or are you searching for 'the truth'.

KS
 
Time travel will just be another 'tool' in the scientist's arsenal when it comes to be. (Currently science fiction - certainly easily could be science fact in the future). Evolution will be a piece of cake to prove then, since some don't believe the current 'In any system where there is hereditary information, slight alterations of that information, and a selection pressure for the best system of hereditary information, evolution will occur'. Basically - DNA changes over time - therefore - evolution occurs. Scientific fact, unless of course, you are of the same ilk that told science in the case of sub atomic particles - "I know, I know, you can 'prove' that they exist because of the actions and reactions of them, but that doesn't prove anything until I see one."
So, your position on evolution is that if only we had a time machine, we could prove it? :bowrofl: Talk about dealing a blow to the current faith-based 'scientific' community. Remember, these are the same people who said the Global Warming Hoax was 'settled science.'

Oh man, I can't stop laughing at you today. :lol:
 
So, your position on evolution is that if only we had a time machine, we could prove it? :bowrofl: Talk about dealing a blow to the current faith-based 'scientific' community. Remember, these are the same people who said the Global Warming Hoax was 'settled science.'

Oh man, I can't stop laughing at you today. :lol:

I am glad that I can provide a little bit of humor into your otherwise mundane world Foss...

That pager/cellphone/green lantern ring idea fits right in. 1967 - Star Trek - communicator - science fiction. Today - iPhone4 - cellular video calls - fact.

You never know... think outside the box, it is a lot more interesting foss. And who knows - time travel may show that evolution is just bunk. Think of the consequences... Or maybe we will stumble upon God as a kindly old man, sitting in the clouds, deciding that Adam needs a helpmate, and watching Him rip one of Adam's ribs out to create Eve.

What Rosenbaum is doing is denying possibilities - he is placing 'faith' that certain things won't happen, like science being able to show, or re-create, how something can come from nothing. I am just stating that in the past, science has been pretty good as showing us 'how' and 'why', I wouldn't discount them so 'out of hand' in this case.
 
"True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing"
-Socrates
 
Hey, 04, now tell us what YOU believe.

Are you of the ilk of those who say, "I don't know, and I don't wanna know" or are you searching for 'the truth'.

KS

I'm an agnostic.
Nothing is absolute.

I don't deny the possibility of the existence of a creator, in fact the whole universe is it's own creator, the universe is God.
It's hard to comprehend in human terms the tie in to a sentient being as that creator and what he would need us tiny microscopics for while contending with the vastness and size of space that is the rest of his creation.

Einstein's famous quote about God not playing dice with the universe belies the fact that he did not believe in a personal god of salvation that looks over and listens to the prayers of his followers, in fact he regarded it as "childish" and though noble, wishful thinking at best.

However there are unexplained phenomena regarding ghosts and spirits as well as "miracles" that can't readily be explained or dismissed.

Therefore I'm of the I don't know opinion and will just have to wait and see (or not see for that matter) when my time comes.

As a further unknown, in the afterlife what would you do and why.

Since it is impossible to know the truth I won't get too worked up about trying to find it and will continue to focus on enjoying the ride that is my life.
 
'In any system where there is hereditary information, slight alterations of that information, and a selection pressure for the best system of hereditary information, evolution will occur'. Basically - DNA changes over time - therefore - evolution occurs. Scientific fact, unless of course, you are of the same ilk that told science in the case of sub atomic particles - "I know, I know, you can 'prove' that they exist because of the actions and reactions of them, but that doesn't prove anything until I see one." Evolution is proven to occur
It's amazing that somebody of your age and 'experience' would be capable of such sophomoric statements.

I see I have to point out not only your lack of correctness, but your embarrassingly rudimentary grasp on what evolution even means. Evolution has not been proven to occur, and in fact, cannot occur because evolution has no way to write new information, i.e. DNA, despite your implied assertion that it does.

You say "DNA changes over time" but that's a scientifically broad and incorrect statement because you mean it to imply that new information is being written all the time - which is actually what evolution claims. So, in actuality, you're juxtaposing one unrelated 'fact' and making a logical leap to a completely different area in the hope that nobody will notice.

In fact, DNA mutations only result in loss of information, and NEVER a gain of information. The trend is ever downward, not upward. Nice try.

In short, evolution says "assume _______" at the start of every premise. There isn't anything about evolution that is true, yet you believe it with a level of faith that might even be superior to my own faith in my God. :rolleyes:
 
I'm less interested in whether someone has faith than that all people realize that the Judeo-Christian philosophies, whether the spiritual or supernatural elements are based in truth or not, has help shape the society that enables them to right to chose their own belief system.

The morals, values, and philosophy of the Judeo-Christian society aren't universally accepted, nor should they be taken for granted. If I remember my history right, though I can't recall the quote, I think Thomas Paine recognized this in the 1800s. That the judeo-christian philosophy and morals that are at the bedrock of Americanism are what protect atheists, agnostics, and all other religions.

And don't agnostics like Dawkin's get tired of arguing that they believe in nothing, constantly and so defensively? And I say that as someone with a degree of respect for Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. Both are honest brokers of what they have come to believe.

It is true, God fills in the details. When we don't understand something, people historically just insert God into the void to make it make sense. But our expanded knowledge of the universe has done nothing to undermine the concept of religion, nor will it.
 
It's amazing that somebody of your age and 'experience' would be capable of such sophomoric statements.

I see I have to point out not only your lack of correctness, but your embarrassingly rudimentary grasp on what evolution even means. Evolution has not been proven to occur, and in fact, cannot occur because evolution has no way to write new information, i.e. DNA, despite your implied assertion that it does.

You say "DNA changes over time" but that's a scientifically broad and incorrect statement because you mean it to imply that new information is being written all the time - which is actually what evolution claims. So, in actuality, you're juxtaposing one unrelated 'fact' and making a logical leap to a completely different area in the hope that nobody will notice.

In fact, DNA mutations only result in loss of information, and NEVER a gain of information. The trend is ever downward, not upward. Nice try.

In short, evolution says "assume _______" at the start of every premise. There isn't anything about evolution that is true, yet you believe it with a level of faith that might even be superior to my own faith in my God. :rolleyes:

This is not true at all.

Take the following example. Europeans first began journeying to the Americas and the natives had no immunity to European diseases. Therefore, even some of the more minor diseases could cause death. Today, those people have these immunities passed down from their parents. This is an example of evolution. Natural selection is also a good example of evolution. I don't really know where I want to begin on the statement that genetic mutation and change always results in a loss of information, and never a gain.... perhaps later. Micro-organisms and germs, as I said before, are an excellent example of evolution that one can see over a period of just a few years, instead of the millenia it takes more complex organisms, where we only have fossil data and other such hints to go on. Either way, to say DNA changes over time does not imply only a gain of information. It only states the information changes. Whether it is lost, gained or subject to random mutation, these are all examples of change, and examples of evolution. Evolution does not imply a positive change in DNA information even, it just implies change.

Honestly, I was going to google some copy-paste stuff, but the top 20 websites that came up were creationism sites denouncing evolution, so I decided not to bother with that. Instead, you can enjoy a short essay by an Ian Johnson in lieu of scientific proof, and later, when I am done with some of my work, I will try and provide further scientific justification for evolution if you would like.

We live, we are constantly told, in a scientific age. We look to science to help us achieve the good life, to solve our problems (especially our medical aches and pains), and to tell us about the world. A great deal of our education system, particularly the post-secondary curriculum, is organized as science or social science. And yet, curiously enough, there is one major scientific truth which vast numbers of people refuse to accept (by some news accounts a majority of people in North America)--the fact of evolution. Yet it is as plain as plain can be that the scientific truth of evolution is so overwhelmingly established, that it is virtually impossible to refute within the bounds of reason. No major scientific truth, in fact, is easier to present, explain, and defend.

Before demonstrating this claim, let me make it clear what I mean by evolution, since there often is some confusion about the term. By evolution I mean, very simply, the development of animal and plant species out of other species not at all like them, for example, the process by which, say, a species of fish gets transformed (or evolves) through various stages into a cow, a kangaroo, or an eagle. This definition, it should be noted, makes no claims about how the process might occur, and thus it certainly does not equate the concept of evolution with Darwinian Natural Selection, as so many people seem to do. It simply defines the term by its effects (not by how those effects are produced, which could well be the subject of another argument).

The first step in demonstrating the truth of evolution is to make the claim that all living creatures must have a living parent. This point has been overwhelmingly established in the past century and a half, ever since the French scientist Louis Pasteur demonstrated how fermentation took place and thus laid to rest centuries of stories about beetles arising spontaneously out of dung or gut worms being miraculously produced from non-living material. There is absolutely no evidence for this ancient belief. Living creatures must come from other living creatures. It does no damage to this point to claim that life must have had some origin way back in time, perhaps in a chemical reaction of inorganic materials (in some primordial soup) or in some invasion from outer space. That may well be true. But what is clear is that any such origin for living things or living material must result in a very simple organism. There is no evidence whatsoever (except in science fiction like Frankenstein) that inorganic chemical processes can produce complex, multi-cellular living creatures (the recent experiments cloning sheep, of course, are based on living tissue from other sheep).

The second important point in the case for evolution is that some living creatures are very different from some others. This, I take it, is self-evident. Let me cite a common example: many animals have what we call an internal skeletal structure featuring a backbone and skull. We call these animals vertebrates. Most animals do not have these features (we call them invertebrates). The distinction between vertebrates and invertebrates is something no one who cares to look at samples of both can reasonably deny, and, so far as I am aware, no one hostile to evolution has ever denied a fact so apparent to anyone who observes the world for a few moments.

The final point in the case for evolution is this: simple animals and plants existed on earth long before more complex ones (invertebrate animals, for example, were around for a very long time before there were any vertebrates). Here again, the evidence from fossils is overwhelming. In the deepest rock layers, there are no signs of life. The first fossil remains are of very simple living things. As the strata get more recent, the variety and complexity of life increase (although not at a uniform rate). And no human fossils have ever been found except in the most superficial layers of the earth (e.g., battlefields, graveyards, flood deposits, and so on). In all the countless geological excavations and inspections (for example, of the Grand Canyon), no one has ever come up with a genuine fossil remnant which goes against this general principle (and it would only take one genuine find to overturn this principle).

Well, if we put these three points together, the rational case for evolution is air tight. If all living creatures must have a living parent, if living creatures are different, and if simpler forms were around before the more complex forms, then the more complex forms must have come from the simpler forms (e.g., vertebrates from invertebrates). There is simply no other way of dealing reasonably with the evidence we have. Of course, one might deny (as some do) that the layers of the earth represent a succession of very lengthy epochs and claim, for example, that the Grand Canyon was created in a matter of days, but this surely violates scientific observation and all known scientific processes as much as does the claim that, say, vertebrates just, well, appeared one day out of a spontaneous combination of chemicals.

To make the claim for the scientific truth of evolution in this way is to assert nothing about how it might occur. Darwin provides one answer (through natural selection), but others have been suggested, too (including some which see a divine agency at work in the transforming process). The above argument is intended, however, to demonstrate that the general principle of evolution is, given the scientific evidence, logically unassailable and that, thus, the concept is a law of nature as truly established as is, say, gravitation. That scientific certainty makes the widespread rejection of evolution in our modern age something of a puzzle (but that's a subject for another essay). In a modern liberal democracy, of course, one is perfectly free to reject that conclusion, but one is not legitimately able to claim that such a rejection is a reasonable scientific stance.
 
It's amazing that somebody of your age and 'experience' would be capable of such sophomoric statements.

I see I have to point out not only your lack of correctness, but your embarrassingly rudimentary grasp on what evolution even means. Evolution has not been proven to occur, and in fact, cannot occur because evolution has no way to write new information, i.e. DNA, despite your implied assertion that it does.

You say "DNA changes over time" but that's a scientifically broad and incorrect statement because you mean it to imply that new information is being written all the time - which is actually what evolution claims. So, in actuality, you're juxtaposing one unrelated 'fact' and making a logical leap to a completely different area in the hope that nobody will notice.

In fact, DNA mutations only result in loss of information, and NEVER a gain of information. The trend is ever downward, not upward. Nice try.

In short, evolution says "assume _______" at the start of every premise. There isn't anything about evolution that is true, yet you believe it with a level of faith that might even be superior to my own faith in my God. :rolleyes:

I didn't say DNA got 'better' it just got 'different,' it changed. That poor ape whose DNA was 'different' (or mutated as you said Foss) and ended up with opposed thumbs was probably laughed at by the rest of the troop, until he picked up a stick and hit them with it. He was just different, not 'better' - until it was shown that 'wow' this opposed thumb idea works great. He gets all the girls, trait is passed down (mutant DNA succeeds). Not because his DNA was improved, just because it lined up differently in his case. Then natural selection took over.

Heck - lots of mutated genes don't work so good - we see that with birth defects all the time. But, when we become taller and taller, because taller people are more apt to 'win the mating game' our DNA reflects that. When it was no longer a benefit to have dark skin, as homo sapiens moved north, lighter skin babies suddenly started to survive into adulthood and pass that trait down. Eventually it may have become a 'preferred' trait, and we got lighter and lighter, just because a sequence in our DNA started to mutate.

It isn't a downward spiral foss - it is an altered spiral, and then it is left to natural selection.

However, I don't see where my age and 'experience' come into play here foss. This was all pretty apparent in high school science...

Isn't the fact that we are able to make children genetically composed of two people proof enough of evolution?
 
@Foxy; speculation justified by anecdote only serves to abstract yourself from reality. When someone focuses so much on what could be that they lose sight of what is, only foolishness results. When that foolishness is given power through government, people suffer.

@Find; computer models are not empirical verification in and of themselves and are not a substitute for empirical verification. The faulty track record of computer models in this area verifies that truth; specifically in the areas of overpopulation, scarcity of resources and global warming. In fact, they have been shown to be tools for manipulation and promotion of a political agenda in the area of global warming (agan, a topic that has been discussed ad nausseum on this forum).

As to the evolution thing, most of us on this forum are tired of that discussion; it has been discussed ad nausseum on here and tends to get quickly get exceedingly contentious. If you are going to focus on that, please familiarize yourself with what has come before on this forum and please don't make us retread old ground in that area.
 
Foxy, speculation justified by anecdote only serves to abstract yourself from reality. When someone focuses so much on what could be that they lose sight of what is, only foolishness results. When that foolishness is given power through government, people suffer.

You can't really believe this shag -

What could be....

Without that simple statement, we would be no better than the most recent evolutionary form of ape.

Just to start
What could be - fire
What could be - the wheel
What could be - agriculture (can you imagine putting your faith that when you planted a little seed, gave it enough water, sun, time, that food could not be your number one worry)

What could be -

Every scientist, mathematician, physicist worth anything, hopes that they can answer - what could be.

Engineers, architects, inventors, builders everyday wish that they can find that next - what could be.

Jefferson, Adams, Paine, Lee, Franklin, Sherman - they certainly asked, and answered - what could be.

I wouldn't want to live in your world that would lack - what could be.
 
@Find; computer models are not empirical verification in and of themselves and are not a substitute for empirical verification. The faulty track record of computer models in this area verifies that truth; specifically in the areas of overpopulation, scarcity of resources and global warming. In fact, they have been shown to be tools for manipulation and promotion of a political agenda in the area of global warming (agan, a topic that has been discussed ad nausseum on this forum).

Global warming?:confused:

Computer models can of course predict things that are wrong. One needs to verify the science behind the model, however, one person using the model to predict something as wrong, does not invalidate their use. Of course, nothing beats empirical verification, but given proper scientific data, a computer model is usually just as good or the next best thing.

As far as the things you have cited, there have been numerous models based upon numerous different predictions using different information and evidence. They frequently come up differently from reality, though some mirror reality. Overpopulation and scarcity of resources are a particularly difficult area to model on a computer, as human behavior is unpredictable and they rely on soft sciences..... What does this have to do with computer models dealing with hard physics? Was that a straw man?

I'm going to stay away from these claims that they are being used to promote a political agenda, as that is obviously your belief, and I doubt I could present any facts that would change your mind. Not that cycles of global warming and cooling aren't part of nature or anything....

Either way, I am not discussing things of this scientific nature with people who are only interested in proving or disproving them based upon political agenda. I don't care if they agree or disagree with me. Though.... I do have some kind of morbid interest in finding out what else you are stating computer models are incorrect about, and your reasons for stating that the models you listed were incorrect.
 
As to the evolution thing, most of us on this forum are tired of that discussion; it has been discussed ad nausseum on here and tends to get quickly get exceedingly contentious. If you are going to focus on that, please familiarize yourself with what has come before on this forum and please don't make us retread old ground in that area.

To the subject of evolution. I am not the one who brought it up, you were. I am not going to NOT say anything just because you have all come to your own conclusions prior to now. If you do not want to discuss it, do not mention it. This is not some private clubhouse where old members are entitled to never hear that they are wrong and are the only ones who can discuss things that have come before. I'm really getting tired of these, "we have already discussed this so now it is fact forever more" responses. If you say something I believe to be wrong, I am going to say so. If you do not want me to say so, then I would recommend not saying anything.
 
To the subject of evolution. I am not the one who brought it up, you were. I am not going to NOT say anything just because you have all come to your own conclusions prior to now. If you do not want to discuss it, do not mention it. This is not some private clubhouse where old members are entitled to never hear that they are wrong and are the only ones who can discuss things that have come before. I'm really getting tired of these, "we have already discussed this so now it is fact forever more" responses. If you say something I believe to be wrong, I am going to say so. If you do not want me to say so, then I would recommend not saying anything.

I am simply expecting you to show consideration and decency to everyone else in not making us rehash things because you are too lazy to do some research. Unfortunately civility and decency don't seem to be your strong suits. However, excessive pride is something else entirely...
 

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