Another Shrub "Whoops!"

The New York Times. The United States version of Al-Jezeera. Wonderful.

The book comes out in 10 days. What a coincidence.

What will be accomplished and come from this. Let's see. We can't spy anymore and we can't torture if we do catch you.

Looks like we are giving the terrorists a free pass. Let them go ahead and destroy us and get it over with.

The NYT. A traitorist organization if I ever saw one.
 
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110007692

BY JAMES TARANTO
Friday, December 16, 2005 12:20 p.m. EST

'Unilateral Disarmament'
President Bush has apparently capitulated on the "torture" issue, agreeing to accept, with only slight modifications, Sen. John McCain's amendment that would ban "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" of terrorists in U.S. custody. CNN quotes McCain: "I think that this will help us enormously in winning the war for the hearts and minds of people throughout the world in the war on terror."

This is fatuous. In September 1999 Norman Podhoretz wrote in The Wall Street Journal about an Israeli Supreme Court decision "to ban certain forms of interrogating suspected terrorists (like forceful shaking)":

It was only a matter of time before that court, being part of the same intellectual and political culture pervading the Israeli left as a whole (some have likened it to the Warren court), would enforce its point of view on the security services. . . . The Supreme Court's decision can be interpreted as a form of unilateral disarmament by Israel in the face of a still intransigent enemy.

More than six years later, one would be hard-pressed to produce evidence that the Israeli Supreme Court decision has helped the Jewish state win "hearts and minds." The Arab world still treats Israel as a pariah; Iran's ruler openly calls for its destruction; and the U.N. actively demonizes it, with at least the complicity of much of the free world. Inasmuch as Israel's position in international politics has improved, it is only because, since Sept. 11, the U.S. has become fully engaged in its own war against Islamist terrorists.

Podhoretz's phrase--"a form of unilateral disarmament . . . in the face of a still intransigent enemy"--is an apt description of the McCain amendment, which will certainly not prompt any reciprocal moves by terrorists to abjure tactics like beheading civilians or flying planes into buildings.

The McCain amendment, along with U.S. Supreme Court decisions in favor of terrorists' rights and the threatened Democratic filibuster of the Patriot Act's renewal, represents, in part, an overcompensation for the excesses of previous wars. In the past, the Supreme Court has upheld genuine outrages against civil liberties during wartime, such as restrictions on free speech during World War I (Schenck v. U.S.) and the internment of innocent Japanese-Americans during World War II (Korematsu v. U.S.)

But nothing remotely like these abuses has occurred during our current conflict. It seems that politicians and judges, like generals, have a tendency to fight the last war. One can only hope their efforts will not prove too damaging to American intelligence-gathering and terror-prevention efforts.
 
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/012571.php

Let's Send These Guys to Jail

The Valerie Plame case has established that any leak of classified information from an intelligence agency is a serious matter, regardless of how trivial the information may be, and must result in criminal investigation and prosecution. Fine. Here's another one that's not trivial, from today's New York Times:

Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.
Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the intelligence agency has monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants over the past three years in an effort to track possible "dirty numbers" linked to Al Qaeda, the officials said. The agency, they said, still seeks warrants to monitor entirely domestic communications.


How does the Times know this? Because intelligence officials who are hostile to the Bush administration, and disagree with its policies, leaked the information:

Nearly a dozen current and former officials, who were granted anonymity because of the classified nature of the program, discussed it with reporters for The New York Times because of their concerns about the operation's legality and oversight.
The administration vigorously defends both the legality and the effectiveness of the policy:

The Bush administration views the operation as necessary so that the agency can move quickly to monitor communications that may disclose threats to the United States, the officials said. Defenders of the program say it has been a critical tool in helping disrupt terrorist plots and prevent attacks inside the United States.
Administration officials are confident that existing safeguards are sufficient to protect the privacy and civil liberties of Americans, the officials say. In some cases, they said, the Justice Department eventually seeks warrants if it wants to expand the eavesdropping to include communications confined within the United States. The officials said the administration had briefed Congressional leaders about the program and notified the judge in charge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the secret Washington court that deals with national security issues.


Not only that: the administration specifically asked the Times not to publish this article, on the ground that such publication would damage the country's security:

The White House asked The New York Times not to publish this article, arguing that it could jeopardize continuing investigations and alert would-be terrorists that they might be under scrutiny. After meeting with senior administration officials to hear their concerns, the newspaper delayed publication for a year to conduct additional reporting. Some information that administration officials argued could be useful to terrorists has been omitted.
The Times believes that it should be the arbiter of what will and will not help the terrorists and thus impair our national security. I don't agree. Under the Plame precedent, this case is a no-brainer. The intelligence officials who leaked to the Times should be identified, criminally prosecuted, and sent to prison. Under the Pentagon Papers case, the reporters and editors at the Times who published the leaked story can't be criminally prosecuted. Perhaps the Supreme Court should revisit that precedent when the opportunity arises.
 
http://drudgereport.com/flash9nyt.htm

NYT 'SPYING' SPLASH TIED TO BOOK RELEASE
Fri Dec 16 200 11:27:16 ET

**Exclusive**

Newspaper fails to inform readers "news break" is tied to book publication

On the front page of today's NEW YORK TIMES, national security reporter James Risen claims that "months after the September 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States... without the court approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials."

Risen claims the White House asked the paper not to publish the article, saying that it could jeopardize continuing investigations and alert would-be terrorists that they might be under scrutiny.

Risen claims the TIMES delayed publication of the article for a year to conduct additional reporting.

But now comes word James Risen's article is only one of many "explosive newsbreaking" stories that can be found -- in his upcoming book -- which he turned in 3 months ago!

The paper failed to reveal the urgent story was tied to a book release and sale.

"STATE OF WAR: The Secret History of the CIA and the Bush Administration" is to be published by FREE PRESS in the coming weeks, sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

Carisa Hays, VP, Director of Publicity FREE PRESS, confirms the book is being published.

The book editor of Bush critic Richard Clarke [AGAINST ALL ENEMIES] signed Risen to FREE PRESS.
 
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/white_house/july-dec05/bush_12-16-05.html

JIM LEHRER: Mr. President, welcome.

PRESIDENT BUSH: Thank you, sir.

JIM LEHRER: First, the New York Times story this morning that says that you authorized secret wiretaps by the National Security Agency of thousands of Americans. Is that true?

PRESIDENT BUSH: Jim, we do not discuss ongoing intelligence operations to protect the country, and the reason why is that there's an enemy that lurks, that would like to know exactly what we're trying to do to stop them.


I will make this point. That whatever I do to protect the American people, and I have an obligation to do so, that we will uphold the law, and decisions made are made understanding we have an obligation to protect the civil liberties of the American people.

JIM LEHRER: So if, in fact, these things did occur, they were done legally and properly?

PRESIDENT BUSH: So you're trying to get me to talk about a program--

JIM LEHRER: Yeah.

PRESIDENT BUSH: --that's important not to talk about, and the reason why is that we're at a war with an enemy that still wants to attack.

I-- after 9/11, I told the American people I would do everything in my power to protect the country, within the law, and that's exactly how I conduct my presidency.

JIM LEHRER: Mr. President, in all due respect, don't you believe that answer is going to lead people to believe that you're confirming that in fact you did this?

PRESIDENT BUSH: We don't talk about sources and methods. Don't talk about ongoing intelligence operations. I know there's speculation. But it's important for the American people to understand that we will do-- or I will use my powers to protect us, and I will do so under the law, and that's important for our citizens to understand.

JIM LEHRER: I don't want to "beat a dead horse" here, Mr. President--

PRESIDENT BUSH: Okay.

JIM LEHRER: --but the story is now all over the world.

PRESIDENT BUSH: Yeah.

JIM LEHRER: I mean, it's on the front page of the New York Times, the Washington Post, every newspaper in America today, and it's going--it's the main story of the day. So--

PRESIDENT BUSH: It's not the main story of the day.

JIM LEHRER: Well, but I mean in terms of the way it's being covered--

PRESIDENT BUSH: The main story of the day is the Iraqi election.

JIM LEHRER: Right, and I'm going to get to that.

PRESIDENT BUSH: Okay.

JIM LEHRER: But I mean, is it correct to say that the National Security Agency is normally told to do surveillance only on international calls rather than domestic calls, without reference to this specific thing?

PRESIDENT BUSH: I-- Jim, I know that people are anxious to know the details of operations, they-- people want me to comment about the veracity of the story. It's the policy of this government, just not going do it, and the reason why is is that because it would compromise our ability to protect the people.

I think the point that Americans really want to know is twofold. One, are we doing everything we can to protect the people? And two, are we protecting civil liberties as we do so?

And my answer to both is yes, we are.
 
http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2103

December 16, 2005
Bush Apologizes for Phone Taps After 9/11
by Scott Ott

(2005-12-16) — President George Bush today apologized to the American people for signing an order in 2002 that allowed the National Security Agency (NSA) to secretly listen in on international phone calls in the wake of the 9/11 terror attacks.

The New York Times today broke the story that after 9/11 the NSA tapped phonelines of hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of Americans without court orders in an effort to trace communication networks discovered on computers and cellphones confiscated from terror suspects.

“I want to apologize for allowing the NSA to do these wiretaps after 9/11,” the president said. “I’m sorry that I violated the privacy of some of these folks after terrorists launched attacks from our soil that killed 3,000 people, destroyed two skyscrapers and four jumbo jets, and punched a gaping hole in our military headquarters.”

“My biggest regret,” the president added, “is that the NSA didn’t secretly tap these lines before 9/11. I hope my fellow Americans can forgive me.”
 
This is what the uproar is all about. Put everyone from the NYT in jail and throw away the key. Of course you won't hear about this "special collection program" in the mainstream media. If the people knew the truth about this, everyone, even you nutcases on the left would support the President's actions. And btw, all the taps and such were revealed by the administration at some point

What the agency calls a “special collection program” began soon after the Sept. 11 attacks, as it looked for new tools to attack terrorism. The program accelerated in early 2002 after the Central Intelligence Agency started capturing top Qaeda operatives overseas, including Abu Zubaydah, who was arrested in Pakistan in March 2002. The C.I.A. seized the terrorists’ computers, cellphones and personal phone directories, said the officials familiar with the program. The N.S.A. surveillance was intended to exploit those numbers and addresses as quickly as possible, the officials said.
 
More from the Times story...

In mid-2004, concerns about the program expressed by national security officials, government lawyers and a judge prompted the Bush administration to suspend elements of the program and revamp it.

For the first time, the Justice Department audited the N.S.A. program, several officials said. And to provide more guidance, the Justice Department and the agency expanded and refined a checklist to follow in deciding whether probable cause existed to start monitoring someone's communications, several officials said.

A complaint from Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly, the federal judge who oversees the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Court, helped spur the suspension, officials said. The judge questioned whether information obtained under the N.S.A. program was being improperly used as the basis for F.I.S.A. wiretap warrant requests from the Justice Department, according to senior government officials. While not knowing all the details of the exchange, several government lawyers said there appeared to be concerns that the Justice Department, by trying to shield the existence of the N.S.A. program, was in danger of misleading the court about the origins of the information cited to justify the warrants.

One official familiar with the episode said the judge insisted to Justice Department lawyers at one point that any material gathered under the special N.S.A. program not be used in seeking wiretap warrants from her court. Judge Kollar-Kotelly did not return calls for comment.

A related issue arose in a case in which the F.B.I. was monitoring the communications of a terrorist suspect under a F.I.S.A.-approved warrant, even though the National Security Agency was already conducting warrantless eavesdropping. According to officials, F.B.I. surveillance of Mr. Faris, the Brooklyn Bridge plotter, was dropped for a short time because of technical problems. At the time, senior Justice Department officials worried what would happen if the N.S.A. picked up information that needed to be presented in court. The government would then either have to disclose the N.S.A. program or mislead a criminal court about how it had gotten the information.
 
From Bob Owens of the Confederate Yankee...

In a time of extraordinary circumstances, while the remains of murdered Americans were still being recovered from Ground Zero, the Pentagon, and a field outside Shanksville, the President decided that stopping terrorists from killing more Americans was more important than entertaining the delicate sensibilities of the ACLU.
Thank God we have you, James Risen and Eric Lichtblau of the New York Times to guard our civil liberties! I just wish that you had been able to get this information when it was fresh and still of use to al Qaeda. Oh wait, it still might be, and you don't care...


More from Bob
His post got me thinking about what the cost of freedom really is. After hearing Cindy Sheehan announce yet again this morning that her son "died for nothing," I thought I'd crunch some numbers to see what Casey Sheehan's mortal sacrifice, his most precious resource, really bought.

More than he wound have dared imagine.
War..........................# US Soldiers Killed.....Population Freed..# Freed/U.S. Killed
World War I(France)..............115,000............39 million................339
World War II(France, Belgium)..116,991...........48 million................410
1991 Gulf War(Kuwait)..................472...........2 million................8968
GWOT(Afghanistan)......................223*........30 million...........134,529*
GWOT(Iraq)..............................1,865*........26 million.............13,941*
GWOT(Combined)......................2,088*.........56 million............26,819*
* On-going
 
MonsterMark said:
From Bob Owens of the Confederate Yankee...

In a time of extraordinary circumstances, while the remains of murdered Americans were still being recovered from Ground Zero, the Pentagon, and a field outside Shanksville, the President decided that stopping terrorists from killing more Americans was more important than entertaining the delicate sensibilities of the ACLU.

You forgot the "zeig heil".
 
http://corner.nationalreview.com/05_12_11_corner-archive.asp#084896

EAVESDROPPING INS AND OUTS [Mark R. Levin]
Some brief background: The Foreign Intelligence Security Act permits the government to monitor foreign communications, even if they are with U.S. citizens -- 50 USC 1801, et seq. A FISA warrant is only needed if the subject communications are wholly contained in the United States and involve a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power.

The reason the President probably had to sign an executive order is that the Justice Department office that processes FISA requests, the Office of Intelligence Policy and Review (OIPR), can take over 6 months to get a standard FISA request approved. It can become extremely bureaucratic, depending on who is handling the request. His executive order is not contrary to FISA if he believed, as he clearly did, that he needed to act quickly. The president has constitutional powers, too.

It's also clear from the Times piece that Rockefeller knew about the government's eavesdropping, as did the FISA court. By the time this story is fully fleshed out, we'll learn that many others knew about it, too. To the best of my knowledge, Rockefeller didn't take any steps to stop the eavesdropping. And he's no friend of this administration. Nor is he above using intelligence for political purposes, as his now infamous memorandum demonstrates.

But these leaks -- about secret prisons in Europe, CIA front companies, and now secret wiretaps, are egregious violations of law and extremely detrimental to our national security. They are far worse than any aspect of the Plame matter. The question is whether our government is capable of tracking down these perpetrators and punishing them, or will we continue to allow the Times and Washington Post determine national security policy. And if these wiretaps are violative of our civil liberties, it's curious that the Times would wait a year to report about it. I cannot remember the last time, or first time, this newspaper reported a leak that was helpful to our war effort.
 
http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200512160710.asp

December 16, 2005, 7:10 a.m.
Lancing the Boil

We quietly keep on killing terrorists, promoting elections in Iraq, pressuring Arab autocracies to democratize, and growing the economy.



For some time, a large number of Americans have lived in an alternate universe where everything is supposedly going to hell. If you get up in the morning to read the New York Times or Washington Post, watch John Murtha or Howard Dean on the morning talk shows, listen to National Public Radio at noon, and go to bed reading Newsweek it surely seems that the administration is incommunicado (cf. “the bubble”), the war is lost (“unwinnable”), the Great Depression is back (“jobless recovery”), and America about as popular as Nazi Germany abroad (“alone and isolated”). [snip]
 
America suffers a defeat for freedom and the left rejoices...

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20051216/D8EHFRVO9.html
By JESSE J. HOLLAND

(AP) U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff speaks, Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2005, in New York. ...
Full Image



WASHINGTON (AP) - The Senate on Friday rejected attempts to reauthorize several provisions of the USA Patriot Act as infringing too much on Americans' privacy and liberty, dealing a huge defeat to the Bush administration and Republican leaders.[snip]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And wait till they try to pin the next attack on the Administration. The Democrats are responsible for making this Country less secure today. Be sure to thank them.
 
Just putting the truth out there for those less fortunate that only get their information (or should I call it disinformation) from the mainstream press.

I have noticed a distinct pattern in your postings that you have nothing to offer the discussion except snide remarks.

What do you think of what BIG BAD BUSH has done?

I know I sleep better knowing that we have a guy in office who is not only fighting the enemy overseas, but also the enemy within (NYT, WAPO, Democrats, Liberals).

I truly hope conservatives and republicans lose the legislative and administrative branches in '08. I also hope that Bush lets our enemy know that the timetable to attack is the day after he leaves office. He might as well send them some choice targets as a going away present.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
MonsterMark said:
I have noticed a distinct pattern in your postings that you have nothing to offer the discussion except snide remarks.

That is hilarious coming for the "King of Cheap Shots".
 
So your lack of response indicates that you are in favor of what Bush has done and will continue to do as long as he is President. Here you go, here's a glass of water as you choke that thought down.:yuck:
 
barry2952 said:
Now you've taken to answering your own posts like Vitas.

That's funny, Barry, I don't see Phil answering his posts. In fact, all I see is Bryan KICKING PHIL'S A$$ ALL OVER THIS THREAD.

Where are you, Phil? Are you out of FACTS? Where are YOUR FACTS, barry? Don't you have anything else to offer except little one-liners?

You guys are getting *owned*

There's just no other way to describe it.

Nice going Bryan. Keep it up, they're on the run.
 
I want one Democrat/Liberal here on the LVC to answer to this.

Come on guys. Let's make this an honest and constructive thread. Everybody says Bush lied us into war. It has been stated again and again. Therefore, for that to be true. there must be evidence of that. Please post it here. Feel free to post articles in defense of your theory. No snide remarks please. Just (what you consider to be) facts.


If Bush lied us into war, please refute this. Take your time and take your best shot.


COMMENTARY

December 2005

Who Is Lying About Iraq?

Norman Podhoretz

Among the many distortions, misrepresentations, and outright falsifications that have emerged from the debate over Iraq, one in particular stands out above all others. This is the charge that George W. Bush misled us into an immoral and/or unnecessary war in Iraq by telling a series of lies that have now been definitively exposed.

What makes this charge so special is the amazing success it has enjoyed in getting itself established as a self-evident truth even though it has been refuted and discredited over and over again by evidence and argument alike. In this it resembles nothing so much as those animated cartoon characters who, after being flattened, blown up, or pushed over a cliff, always spring back to life with their bodies perfectly intact. Perhaps, like those cartoon characters, this allegation simply cannot be killed off, no matter what.

Nevertheless, I want to take one more shot at exposing it for the lie that it itself really is. Although doing so will require going over ground that I and many others have covered before, I hope that revisiting this well-trodden terrain may also serve to refresh memories that have grown dim, to clarify thoughts that have grown confused, and to revive outrage that has grown commensurately dulled.




The main “lie” that George W. Bush is accused of telling us is that Saddam Hussein possessed an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, or WMD as they have invariably come to be called. From this followed the subsidiary “lie” that Iraq under Saddam’s regime posed a two-edged mortal threat. On the one hand, we were informed, there was a distinct (or even “imminent”) possibility that Saddam himself would use these weapons against us and/or our allies; and on the other hand, there was the still more dangerous possibility that he would supply them to terrorists like those who had already attacked us on 9/11 and to whom he was linked.

This entire scenario of purported deceit has been given a new lease on life by the indictment in late October of I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, then chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. Libby stands accused of making false statements to the FBI and of committing perjury in testifying before a grand jury that had been convened to find out who in the Bush administration had “outed” Valerie Plame, a CIA agent married to the retired ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, IV. The supposed purpose of leaking this classified information to the press was to retaliate against Wilson for having “debunked” (in his words) “the lies that led to war.”

Now, as it happens, Libby was not charged with having outed Plame but only with having lied about when and from whom he first learned that she worked for the CIA. Moreover, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor who brought the indictment against him, made a point of emphasizing that

[t]his indictment is not about the war. This indictment is not about the propriety of the war. And people who believe fervently in the war effort, people who oppose it, people who have mixed feelings about it should not look to this indictment for any resolution of how they feel or any vindication of how they feel.

This is simply an indictment that says, in a national-security investigation about the compromise of a CIA officer’s identity that may have taken place in the context of a very heated debate over the war, whether some person—a person, Mr. Libby—lied or not.

No matter. Harry Reid, the Democratic leader in the Senate, spoke for a host of other opponents of the war in insisting that

[t]his case is bigger than the leak of classified information. It is about how the Bush White House manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to bolster its case for the war in Iraq and to discredit anyone who dared to challenge the President.

Yet even stipulating—which I do only for the sake of argument—that no weapons of mass destruction existed in Iraq in the period leading up to the invasion, it defies all reason to think that Bush was lying when he asserted that they did. To lie means to say something one knows to be false. But it is as close to certainty as we can get that Bush believed in the truth of what he was saying about WMD in Iraq.

How indeed could it have been otherwise? George Tenet, his own CIA director, assured him that the case was “a slam dunk.” This phrase would later become notorious, but in using it, Tenet had the backing of all fifteen agencies involved in gathering intelligence for the United States. In the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) of 2002, where their collective views were summarized, one of the conclusions offered with “high confidence” was that

Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions.

The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and—yes—France all agreed with this judgment. And even Hans Blix—who headed the UN team of inspectors trying to determine whether Saddam had complied with the demands of the Security Council that he get rid of the weapons of mass destruction he was known to have had in the past—lent further credibility to the case in a report he issued only a few months before the invasion:

The discovery of a number of 122-mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker at a storage depot 170 km southwest of Baghdad was much publicized. This was a relatively new bunker, and therefore the rockets must have been moved there in the past few years, at a time when Iraq should not have had such munitions. . . . They could also be the tip of a submerged iceberg. The discovery of a few rockets does not resolve but rather points to the issue of several thousands of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for.

Blix now claims that he was only being “cautious” here, but if, as he now also adds, the Bush administration “misled itself” in interpreting the evidence before it, he at the very least lent it a helping hand.




So, once again, did the British, the French, and the Germans, all of whom signed on in advance to Secretary of State Colin Powell’s reading of the satellite photos he presented to the UN in the period leading up to the invasion. Powell himself and his chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, now feel that this speech was the low point of his tenure as Secretary of State. But Wilkerson (in the process of a vicious attack on the President, the Vice President, and the Secretary of Defense for getting us into Iraq) is forced to acknowledge that the Bush administration did not lack for company in interpreting the available evidence as it did:

I can’t tell you why the French, the Germans, the Brits, and us thought that most of the material, if not all of it, that we presented at the UN on 5 February 2003 was the truth. I can’t. I’ve wrestled with it. [But] when you see a satellite photograph of all the signs of the chemical-weapons ASP—Ammunition Supply Point—with chemical weapons, and you match all those signs with your matrix on what should show a chemical ASP, and they’re there, you have to conclude that it’s a chemical ASP, especially when you see the next satellite photograph which shows the UN inspectors wheeling in their white vehicles with black markings on them to that same ASP, and everything is changed, everything is clean. . . . But George [Tenet] was convinced, John McLaughlin [Tenet’s deputy] was convinced, that what we were presented [for Powell’s UN speech] was accurate.

Going on to shoot down a widespread impression, Wilkerson informs us that even the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) was convinced:

People say, well, INR dissented. That’s a bunch of bull. INR dissented that the nuclear program was up and running. That’s all INR dissented on. They were right there with the chems and the bios.

In explaining its dissent on Iraq’s nuclear program, the INR had, as stated in the NIE of 2002, expressed doubt about

Iraq’s efforts to acquire aluminum tubes [which are] central to the argument that Baghdad is reconstituting its nuclear-weapons program. . . . INR is not persuaded that the tubes in question are intended for use as centrifuge rotors . . . in Iraq’s nuclear-weapons program.

But, according to Wilkerson,

The French came in in the middle of my deliberations at the CIA and said, we have just spun aluminum tubes, and by God, we did it to this RPM, et cetera, et cetera, and it was all, you know, proof positive that the aluminum tubes were not for mortar casings or artillery casings, they were for centrifuges. Otherwise, why would you have such exquisite instruments?

In short, and whether or not it included the secret heart of Hans Blix, “the consensus of the intelligence community,” as Wilkerson puts it, “was overwhelming” in the period leading up to the invasion of Iraq that Saddam definitely had an arsenal of chemical and biological weapons, and that he was also in all probability well on the way to rebuilding the nuclear capability that the Israelis had damaged by bombing the Osirak reactor in 1981.

Additional confirmation of this latter point comes from Kenneth Pollack, who served in the National Security Council under Clinton. “In the late spring of 2002,” Pollack has written,

I participated in a Washington meeting about Iraqi WMD. Those present included nearly twenty former inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), the force established in 1991 to oversee the elimination of WMD in Iraq. One of the senior people put a question to the group: did anyone in the room doubt that Iraq was currently operating a secret centrifuge plant? No one did. Three people added that they believed Iraq was also operating a secret calutron plant (a facility for separating uranium isotopes).

No wonder, then, that another conclusion the NIE of 2002 reached with “high confidence” was that

Iraq could make a nuclear weapon in months to a year once it acquires sufficient weapons-grade fissile material.1




But the consensus on which Bush relied was not born in his own administration. In fact, it was first fully formed in the Clinton administration. Here is Clinton himself, speaking in 1998:

If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons-of-mass-destruction program.

Here is his Secretary of State Madeline Albright, also speaking in 1998:

Iraq is a long way from [the USA], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.

Here is Sandy Berger, Clinton’s National Security Adviser, who chimed in at the same time with this flat-out assertion about Saddam:

He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.

Finally, Clinton’s Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, was so sure Saddam had stockpiles of WMD that he remained “absolutely convinced” of it even after our failure to find them in the wake of the invasion in March 2003.

Nor did leading Democrats in Congress entertain any doubts on this score. A few months after Clinton and his people made the statements I have just quoted, a group of Democratic Senators, including such liberals as Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, and John Kerry, urged the President

to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons-of-mass-destruction programs.

Nancy Pelosi, the future leader of the Democrats in the House, and then a member of the House Intelligence Committee, added her voice to the chorus:

Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons-of-mass-destruction technology, which is a threat to countries in the region, and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.

This Democratic drumbeat continued and even intensified when Bush succeeded Clinton in 2001, and it featured many who would later pretend to have been deceived by the Bush White House. In a letter to the new President, a number of Senators led by Bob Graham declared:

There is no doubt that . . . Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical, and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf war status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.

Senator Carl Levin also reaffirmed for Bush’s benefit what he had told Clinton some years earlier:

Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations, and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton agreed, speaking in October 2002:

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical- and biological-weapons stock, his missile-delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al-Qaeda members.

Senator Jay Rockefeller, vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, agreed as well:

There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. . . . We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.

Even more striking were the sentiments of Bush’s opponents in his two campaigns for the presidency. Thus Al Gore in September 2002:

We know that [Saddam] has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.

And here is Gore again, in that same year:

Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter, and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.

Now to John Kerry, also speaking in 2002:

I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force—if necessary—to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.




Perhaps most startling of all, given the rhetoric that they would later employ against Bush after the invasion of Iraq, are statements made by Senators Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd, also in 2002:

Kennedy: We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.

Byrd: The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical- and biological-warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons.2

Liberal politicians like these were seconded by the mainstream media, in whose columns a very different tune would later be sung. For example, throughout the last two years of the Clinton administration, editorials in the New York Times repeatedly insisted that

without further outside intervention, Iraq should be able to rebuild weapons and missile plants within a year [and] future military attacks may be required to diminish the arsenal again.

The Times was also skeptical of negotiations, pointing out that it was

hard to negotiate with a tyrant who has no intention of honoring his commitments and who sees nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons as his country’s salvation.

So, too, the Washington Post, which greeted the inauguration of George W. Bush in January 2001 with the admonition that

[o]f all the booby traps left behind by the Clinton administration, none is more dangerous—or more urgent—than the situation in Iraq. Over the last year, Mr. Clinton and his team quietly avoided dealing with, or calling attention to, the almost complete unraveling of a decade’s efforts to isolate the regime of Saddam Hussein and prevent it from rebuilding its weapons of mass destruction. That leaves President Bush to confront a dismaying panorama in the Persian Gulf [where] intelligence photos . . . show the reconstruction of factories long suspected of producing chemical and biological weapons.3
 
An excellent summation. I will save this link and use it anytime any of you Fibs (like Phil) try to use the old "Bush lied" baloney.

Where are you Fibs? Hmmm? Nothing to say? Cat got your tongue? Can't argue with the truth?

Let's rename this thread:

Another Phil "WHOOPS!"
 
fossten said:
That's funny, Barry, I don't see Phil answering his posts. In fact, all I see is Bryan KICKING PHIL'S A$$ ALL OVER THIS THREAD.

Where are you, Phil? Are you out of FACTS? Where are YOUR FACTS, barry? Don't you have anything else to offer except little one-liners?

You guys are getting *owned*

There's just no other way to describe it.

Nice going Bryan. Keep it up, they're on the run.

No matter what the source of articles I post, you, bryan and calabrio will dismiss them because of that source. You all respond with articles from your own sources and view them as gospel. What is the point in discussing anything with a group who think that they have "won" the discussion by repeating over and over that my posts are invalid because of the source? I post articles of interest and op-eds that I agree with. I see no point in discussing with you the merits of those posts because you think that saying the source is invalid or verbally "bullying" posters creates a "win" for you. The way I see it, this administration has done great damage to this country. You can't or won't. I will continue to post articles and op-eds I find interesting as I know there are others who find them of interest as well. Don't like it? Don't read them and don't respond to them.
 
barry2952 said:
Now you've taken to answering your own posts like Vitas.

Everytime, Barry, that I have responded to your cheap shots at me, you go RUNNING FOR COVER.

You complain, to Joey, and Mark, asking them to protect you from me. That is a fact, isn't it?

If you can't stand the heat in the kitchen, Barry, stay out of the kitchen. It is as simple as that.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
97silverlsc said:
No matter what the source of articles I post, you, bryan and calabrio will dismiss them because of that source. You all respond with articles from your own sources and view them as gospel. What is the point in discussing anything with a group who think that they have "won" the discussion by repeating over and over that my posts are invalid because of the source? I post articles of interest and op-eds that I agree with. I see no point in discussing with you the merits of those posts because you think that saying the source is invalid or verbally "bullying" posters creates a "win" for you. The way I see it, this administration has done great damage to this country. You can't or won't. I will continue to post articles and op-eds I find interesting as I know there are others who find them of interest as well. Don't like it? Don't read them and don't respond to them.

Sorry, Phil, you can't continue to hide behind that flimsy excuse. Your problem is that you are SO EAGER to say anything bad about Bush that you latch onto the first article you see on GOOGLE without even checking its credibility. I had already heard about that article, and I can tell you that its information is phony.

Find for me the last time I needed to discredit your source in order to discredit the lousy article you posted. I submit you won't find anything recent. Bryan hasn't bothered even to address your article in this thread, but is instead posting rebuttal articles which are obliterating your article's credibility. Obviously that upsets you, so maybe you should try posting the truth in the future. Otherwise your false articles will continue to be exposed.
 

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