Bad ball joints, or something else?

[JMC]

I am having issues diagnosing the noise I am hearing from my LS. I have a 2000 V8 Sport that we have owned since new. I am beginning to suspect the ball joints are the issue since they have not been replaced since 2005.

I am hearing a rubbing/clunking noise from the front end when turning at low speeds. Specifically when turning out of my driveway or a parking spot.

I have brought the car in for service at my local dealer twice now. I have concluded that they simply must not be putting in any real effort to find the issue. Both times they claim to have fixed the problem, but it never is. The first visit, they told me to change the front sway bar end links. They were virtually new, plastic was not torn on either and probably had less than 2,000 miles on them as I rarely drive this car. Of course, that was not the issue.

The second visit, the told me that there was an aftermarket HID ballast hanging down causing the noise. The issue I have with this explanation is that I knew immediately that this was a bogus line as the weekend before bringing it back in, I had reinstalled the oem intake and put the ballast down on the side until I had time to spend moving it into a better location. The noise has been going on for 3 months.

By this point, I am done with them. I am being charged each time and it is obvious that they are collecting money without inspecting the car.

I have multiple lifts at my home in which I was able to put the car up in the air to inspect. There are no torn boots/plastic and everything, yes, everything has been replaced in the past 5 years or so (less than 5,000 miles) with the exception of the knuckles/ball-joints.

The ball joints physically look fine, no torn plastic. Is it still likely that the rubbing noise at low speeds when turning is the ball-joints? There is no plastic under trays or anything else that is rubbing. I will be taking it to a different dealer this next time.

Thanks for your suggestions and help.

 

[HRLNKN]

Have you done the bushings at all in the recent past?

 

[LunaEros]

I'm having similar issues but have not found the problem yet. The sway bar end links and control arms/ball joints/bushings have been replaced already.
But mine is making a noise very similar to this....

 

[milehighmikey]

It is the ball joint(s). That is exactly how they fail, they turn dry internally. Eventually, they get so bad that they can actually break the 110 lb ft of torque that the nuts are put on to. A quick fix is to use a hypodermic style grease needle injector and plunge it through the seal of your old failed ball joints, pump in a lot of grease, and the noise and friction that causes it will be reduced. Your alignment could be sketchy, depending on the wear level internally of the ball joint(s). You'll need a new pair of steering knuckles if you can find them, OEM works best if still available. Ball joints are individually available from Moog, but installation is very difficult and can result in a cracked knuckle due to the ball joint starting into the hole but being slightly misaligned with true center axis. If you get the whole knuckles, you can do the job yourself, fairly quickly. If you have never changed your hub bearing assemblies, they could present issues in being transferred to the new knuckles. I am from the north with road salt, so I am always going to hit this issue with the hubs being very hard to remove, not sure how the Florida cars do with these parts being assembled for a long time, as far as separation. Having a press and setting up to press the 4 bolts out after loosening them a few turns is probably the easiest way. I think that I once even used a saw to cut the knuckle to create a break around the hub bearing, thus allowing the aluminum to be parted with a wedge slightly to let it out worked. My own preference would be to replace both hub bearings along with the knuckles, because those things also go bad out of the blue.

One additional point: The noise only presents itself with the weight of the car on the (lower) ball joint. If you have the car off the ground and steer it through its range by grasping the wheels and cycling the steering geometry, you will most likely never hear anything. Again, a temp fix is to inject grease while you await parts for the permanent repair.

 

[jerryg2112]

In regards to pressing in new ball joints. It is possible that the breaking of the knuckle when pressing in the new ball joint could be attributed to the new ball joints diameter being too large and the press fit being too much. I recently pressed in the rear moog control arm bushing and that is what I found. It was .007 too large so I had to turn it to the correct diameter on my old lathe. Measure the old and the new to verify the diameter.

 

[tireman]

My clunking came from the sway bar bushings, then as time went on the steering end links and the sway bar end links, then the upper ball joints. all fairly easy jobs. I bought the entire upper arms instead of replacing the ball joints themselves, they are easy to replace, saves time, ebay.
No more noise or clunking.

 

[milehighmikey]

In regards to pressing in new ball joints. It is possible that the breaking of the knuckle when pressing in the new ball joint could be attributed to the new ball joints diameter being too large and the press fit being too much. I recently pressed in the rear moog control arm bushing and that is what I found. It was .007 too large so I had to turn it to the correct diameter on my old lathe. Measure the old and the new to verify the diameter.

In my case, it was poorly oriented going in. I picked up a used knuckle and was more careful with the same ball joint the next day and it went in. The ball joint tool I was using was also a pos, which contributed to the poor orientation. I had to have a buddy who owns a lathe actually cut down one of the pressing cups for me due to the strange positional setups required for these knuckles, otherwise, the tool could not fit the situation even when fully opened. The length of the target exceeded the opening of the C clamp. But yeah, a no BS approach is to just get OEM knuckles and get the whole job done in under an hour and be back on the road.

 

[LunaEros]

Well, I had mine looked at today. Apparently the rattle I'm hearing only on rough roads is coming from the strut plates.
Makes sense since pretty much everything was already replaced EXCEPT for the strut assemblies.

Hopefully JMCs front end problem won't need to many parts to fix.

 

[JMC]

For some reason I am unable to play the above video.

I stopped daily driving this car back in 2010 and have probably put on less than 10,000 miles since. With that being said, I have had everything replaced over the years since then except for the knuckles. All bushings have been as well. If I remember correctly, I had replaced the front sway bar with a new, revised oem unit in which the bushings were molded on to the bar. Is this the case with any of you? Could this still be an issue?

Also, by mistake, I had ordered and installed new front shocks 7-8 years ago with the wrong, European ride shocks. I hate them as the car has been floaty ever since. Could having the European shocks opposed to the correct shocks that came on Sport packaged equipped LS’s contribute to an issue? I would love to get correct, firmer shocks meant for my car, but oem and aftermarket stiffer, Sport shocks seem unavailable.

I think I will order a set of front knuckles to start since they are the oldest suspension/steering parts left on the car. I’ll bring it to a different dealer as well.

 

[milehighmikey]

Some people claimed that the molded bushings were failing on the new style front sway bar, but mine had been on for 240K and has never made a peep. When you remove the ball joints from the LCAs, you should be able to feel the damage inside, but no guarantees. One slight chance you may have at proving they are "done" is to put the car on ramps so the weight of the car is on the lower ball joints and insert a very staunch pry bar between the LCA and the knuckle and try to pry the gap open between the LCA and the knuckle, as that wear should result in an internally developing gap. One other thing you could do would be to accurately measure the gap that I recommended prying into while it is supporting the car, then lift the wheels and re-measure that gap. It should be wider off the ground by some degree from the socket of the ball being dried up and worn.

 

[04_Sport_LS]

In regards to pressing in new ball joints. It is possible that the breaking of the knuckle when pressing in the new ball joint could be attributed to the new ball joints diameter being too large and the press fit being too much. I recently pressed in the rear moog control arm bushing and that is what I found. It was .007 too large so I had to turn it to the correct diameter on my old lathe. Measure the old and the new to verify the diameter.

So you own a lathe... but don't understand the idea of an "interference fit" ???

.007 is just enough to keep the bushing from rotating in the control arm when under load.

 

[04_Sport_LS]

Some people claimed that the molded bushings were failing on the new style front sway bar, but mine had been on for 240K and has never made a peep. When you remove the ball joints from the LCAs, you should be able to feel the damage inside, but no guarantees. One slight chance you may have at proving they are "done" is to put the car on ramps so the weight of the car is on the lower ball joints and insert a very staunch pry bar between the LCA and the knuckle and try to pry the gap open between the LCA and the knuckle, as that wear should result in an internally developing gap. One other thing you could do would be to accurately measure the gap that I recommended prying into while it is supporting the car, then lift the wheels and re-measure that gap. It should be wider off the ground by some degree from the socket of the ball being dried up and worn.

That is definitely NOT the way to check a ball joint... especially on the LS.

If you look at the design... the shock/spring is already putting tension on the lower control arm.

Everything above that is unsprung weight. No mammoth pry bar at the ball joint needed to check for play... and with the tire on the ground, (or on ramps), the the ball joint is already going to be pulled up as high as it will go... so a pry bar isn't going to do much in the method mentioned.

 

[04_Sport_LS]

Some people are correct. The grease dries out... and causes a squeaking when turning the steering wheel. While that will, (and indicates potential), wear on the ball joint... injecting grease or penetrating oil through the boot... can soften the grease and prolong the life of the ball joint.

Primary indicators of a worn ball joint... is "bump steer" on rough roads... or a shimmy/shake in the steering wheel at 65-70 Mph.

 

[jerryg2112]

So you own a lathe... but don't understand the idea of an "interference fit" ???

.007 is just enough to keep the bushing from rotating in the control arm when under load.

Yes I own a lathe. I also understand an interference fit. It should only be .002
The original removed bushing was .002 The moog replacement was .007 larger than the original.

 

[04_Sport_LS]

Since you don't say how that was measured... I'll assume across the diameter... which is then .0035 ... unless you are talking overall outside wall thickness of the bushing.

They are designed to be a tight press fit... so they don't rotate... but you probably know that.

So with what you say above... the actual O.D. of the Moog bushing was .009 larger than the hole in the control arm?

 

[jerryg2112]

Yes the actual overall outside diameter of the Moog bushing was .009 larger than the hole in the control arm. I removed .007 so it was the same diameter as the original bushing which was .002 larger than the hole in the control arm. I just wanted to point this out so anyone who was trying to press in a Moog ball joint into the knuckle should compare the diameters of the old and new ball joints and make sure they are the same.

 

[04_Sport_LS]

Yeah... well you're not going to want to turn down the O.D. on a ball joint.

The only good way to get the old ball joint out... is to heat the knuckle hot enough to expand the ring that holds the ball joint... and tap it out with appropriate tools... on a bench vise.

The trick is to put the new ball joint in the freezer overnight. It will pretty much fall right in the hole.

Then you slowly pour extremely hot tap water on the knuckle and ball joint every 30 seconds... about a pint at a time. You will hear a "tink tink tink" sound as the knuckle cools... and the ball joint warms up. Don't rush it... or you could crack the knuckle at the ball joint ring.

This slowly cools the knuckle... and warms the ball joint at the same time... while preventing the grease from cooking in the ball joint. The dust boot will survive if done properly.

This is a 2 person job... and NOT for the inexperienced. At the temp required to tap the ball joint out of the knuckle... the temp of the ring will be around 450+ degrees... and the heat will walk up the knuckle... with a temp around 700 degrees where the hub bolts in.

You only get one shot at this... without cooking the new ball joint... and you want an all metal ball joint. Nothing with plastic around the ball socket. AFAIK... Moog is the only ball joint that is all metal, (except for the dust boot).

DISCLAIMER:

The above technique is a brief description of a process that was successful for ME... based on my experience and skill level.

Please do not attempt to sue me when/if something goes terribly wrong.

(thanks for that disclaimer Joe)

 

[04_Sport_LS]

And the above process is for the factory OEM knuckle that was original equipment on the LS.

If you have already replaced the factory knuckle with an aftermarket knuckle... and THAT ball joint has failed... do NOT attempt the above mentioned process!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[04_Sport_LS]

My clunking came from the sway bar bushings, then as time went on the steering end links and the sway bar end links, then the upper ball joints. all fairly easy jobs. I bought the entire upper arms instead of replacing the ball joints themselves, they are easy to replace, saves time, ebay.
No more noise or clunking.

If you found a source for the upper control arm ball joint... I'd like to know where... because the upper ball joints aren't rebuildable by the end user.

The only part I've found for the upper control arms is the rubber bushing... and I think I found the other hydro bushing... but since the ball joint socket isn't rebuildable... it was a moot point.

 

[04_Sport_LS]

I'm sorry... I had that backwards. I actually found the hydro bushing. It was the rubber bushing that I sourced but never acquired.

Still a moot point since the ball joint socket is non-rebuildable.