Bailouts and Bonuses

shagdrum

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Bailouts and Bonuses
By Jonah Goldberg

Hats off to Larry Summers. The president’s chief economic adviser told ABC News’s George Stephanopoulos on Sunday that there’s nothing to be done about the fact that American International Group is contractually obliged to pay millions of dollars in bonuses to thousands of employees, some of whom helped ruin their company — and, to some extent, the national economy. “We are a country of law; there are contracts. The government cannot just abrogate contracts.”

From what I can tell, the bonuses do stink — although some are as small as $1,000 and presumably go to people who had no significant part in the credit-default-swap-derivative mania of recent years. But let’s assume that they’re all gratuitous. Summers was still right.

When the federal government, on behalf of taxpayers, opted to essentially nationalize AIG — we now own 80 percent of the company — we made a choice to keep it alive. If the firm had gone out of business through bankruptcy — what the gods wanted in the first place — there would be no bonuses. But we chose not to do that. Which means those bonuses are just one more toxic debt for which we are on the hook. For good or ill, we chose to defy the natural order. And now we own this monstrous white elephant.

Here’s a good rule of thumb: When you buy an elephant, you can’t refuse to buy the manure that comes with it. You can try, but, soon enough, you’ll be knee-deep in problems anyway. And they’ll continue to pile up no matter how loudly you complain, “This isn’t what I paid for.”

Unfortunately, it looks like Summers is fighting a losing battle.

New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo is getting set to churn out subpoenas to investigate the bonuses. Rep. Elijah Cummings (D., Md.) demanded that AIG Chief Executive Edward Liddy, who came aboard after these contracts were signed and the company imploded, resign. Somehow I doubt that would make hiring a new caretaker any easier.

Meanwhile, Rep. Barney Frank (D., Mass.) wants to fire anyone who takes the bonuses. “These people may have a right to their bonuses. They don’t have a right to their jobs forever,” Frank said on NBC’s Today show Monday. “Forget about the legal matter here for a second. These bonuses are going to people who screwed this thing up enormously, who made terrible decisions.”

One wonders, given that logic, why Frank is accepting a congressional pay raise considering his role in the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac debacle.

Later on Monday, President Obama caved to the populist chorus. He said he asked Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, who also helped oversee the mess we’re in, to “pursue every single legal avenue to block these bonuses and make the American taxpayers whole.” Obama said all Americans ask “is that everyone, from Main Street to Wall Street to Washington, play by the same rules. That is an ethic that we have to demand.”

Again, an interesting standard given how many tax cheats Obama has invited into his administration, starting with our supposedly indispensable Treasury secretary.

Still, hypocrisy aside, Obama is right that everyone should play by the same rules, and that’s called the rule of law, as Summers suggested.

We should have learned from the government takeover of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac what dangers lie ahead: The rule of law and political manipulation of the economy don’t mix well (Indeed, AIG’s toxic loans were made with considerable regulatory and political oversight). Liddy — the front-line sweeper behind the AIG elephant — has already warned the administration that letting politics dictate salaries and bonuses will make it difficult for the firm to retain talented staff.

But the unintended consequences surely won’t end there. What signal does it send when the president and Congress make it clear that they will revisit legal contracts that run afoul of populist outrage? Already, many banks that have received bailout money are returning it — or trying to — because the political strings attached hinder them against competitors. Worse, the highly politicized climate requires financial firms to become dependent on the whims of Washington, which can’t help thaw out frozen credit markets, particularly when Geithner has yet to explain what his actual policy will be.

Wells Fargo Chairman Richard Kovacevich, who was forced against his better judgment to take TARP funds, is livid with the Treasury secretary. “Is this America,” he asks, “when you do what your government asks you to do and then retroactively you also have additional conditions?”

The New York Times reports that the administration is worried about a coming “populist backlash.” It is right to be worried. But further blurring the lines between politics and the market isn’t the answer. That’s how we got in this mess in the first place.
 
Didn't Paulson buy this particular elephant?

Didn't Senator Obama in a Democrat controlled Congress and Senate vote to buy that elephant? Doesn't President Obama now oversee TARP and how those funds are distributed? Didn't Obama know about these bonuses months before yet saw fit to give AIG $30 billion, as this article points out? Aren't Congress' pensions with AIG? Doesn't it seem that Obama, being a good socialist propagandist, is merely looking to disingenuously gin up populist anger toward big business?
 
Didn't Senator Obama in a Democrat controlled Congress and Senate vote to buy that elephant? Doesn't President Obama now oversee TARP and how those funds are distributed? Didn't Obama know about these bonuses months before yet saw fit to give AIG $30 billion, as this article points out? Aren't Congress' pensions with AIG? Doesn't it seem that Obama, being a good socialist propagandist, is merely looking to disingenuously gin up populist anger toward big business?
*owned*
 
Bush/Paulson basically pulled a Bush/Ashcroft (Patriot Act) by telling the congress it was do or die regarding TARP - with no chance to really read the bill, and large corporations on the verge of bankruptcy congress had to act.

Oh, as far as giving out the TARP funds -
American International Group is the biggest individual bailout recipient with $173 billion in aid...

That was as of November 25, 2009 AIG had received 173 billion - Paulson was the one that pushed for no strings...

And other tidbits...

A TARP report card - Nov 18, 2008
Meanwhile, with the TARP's focus having shifted radically in the space of two months, some now wonder just what Paulson's trying to accomplish. For instance, Treasury chose to withhold TARP funds from struggling Cleveland lender National City (NCC, Fortune 500), thereby forcing the bank into the arms of healthier PNC (PNC, Fortune 500). Actions like that suggest the Treasury may be pursuing a plan to decrease the number of banks - though it hasn't said so.

"It seems that Paulson and his staff haven't been entirely forthcoming with their intentions,"
said Hal Reichwald, a banking and finance lawyer at Manatt Phelps & Phillips in Los Angeles.

Reichwald says Paulson appears to have decided early on that the original TARP approach wouldn't work. But he didn't tell Congress, which Reichwald says would not have smiled upon a plan to pour hundreds of billions of dollars into banks without many strings attached.

Treasury's failure to fully and promptly explain its decisions to taxpayers isn't the only issue. The design of the TARP - which was presented to Congress in September, just days after the collapse of Lehman Brothers and the near implosion of AIG (AIG, Fortune 500) - has its critics too.​

So, congress approved funds, basically under dire threats from the Treasury, but Paulson went on a bailout spree - with no accountability he 'bought' the AIG elephant. Congress had no say in that matter. He bought it knowing that bonuses would have to be paid (because of legal contracts) and he didn't renegotiate those contracts when the first $173 billion was given to AIG.

TARP's original 350 billion is gone, Paulson saw to that - however, the half that Obama inherited mostly still sits - waiting a decision on how to best release the funds, including adding 'safe guards' and 'strings'.
 
Bush/Paulson basically pulled a Bush/Ashcroft (Patriot Act) by telling the congress it was do or die regarding TARP - with no chance to really read the bill, and large corporations on the verge of bankruptcy congress had to act.

No one is saying the Bush administration is without blame here-
but don't pretend this administration has clean hands, or even disagreed with the previous one.
 
Bush/Paulson basically pulled a Bush/Ashcroft (Patriot Act) by telling the congress it was do or die regarding TARP - with no chance to really read the bill, and large corporations on the verge of bankruptcy congress had to act.

Congress was pushing pretty hard too. They were not "forced", "conned" or rushed into doing anything they didn't want to do. They had to write the law and go through the whole process to get it signed. This wasn't something that was simply "shoved down Congress' throat" by Bush. Heck, the Democrats actively embraced this. The only opposition here came from conservatives.

You are disingenuously trying to downplay the role of Congress in this. Obama voted for this, as well.

Oh, as far as giving out the TARP funds -
American International Group is the biggest individual bailout recipient with $173 billion in aid...

And Congress knew about the retention bonuses back then. In spite of that, Obama still saw fit to give AIG another $30 billion earlier this month.

That was as of November 25, 2009 AIG had received 173 billion - Paulson was the one that pushed for no strings...

Paulson pushed, but the Democrats wrote, voted on and passed the bill. Chris Dodd [D-Connecticut] actually put the exception into the bill that allowed for these bonuses to be paid. He then lied and said he didn't and then admitted he did. Here is the rule:
Crack down on bonuses, retention awards and incentive compensation: Bonuses can only be paid in the form of long-term restricted stock, equal to no greater than 1/3 of total annual compensation, and will vest only when taxpayer funds are repaid. There is an exception for contractually obligated bonuses agreed on before Feb. 11, 2009

So, congress approved funds, basically under dire threats from the Treasury, but Paulson went on a bailout spree - with no accountability he 'bought' the AIG elephant. Congress had no say in that matter. He bought it knowing that bonuses would have to be paid (because of legal contracts) and he didn't renegotiate those contracts when the first $173 billion was given to AIG.

TARP's original 350 billion is gone, Paulson saw to that - however, the half that Obama inherited mostly still sits - waiting a decision on how to best release the funds, including adding 'safe guards' and 'strings'.

Again, Obama and Congress knew all this from the word go and still saw fit to give AIG another $30 billion earlier this month!

And the problems with a lack of regulation on the TARP funds are due to a poorly written bill by the Democrats (specifically Chris Dodd) who controlled the legislature when the bill was written.

Don't try and claim that Bush and Paulson somehow strong-armed congress into writing and passing this bill. If anything, it was Bush who was made to support this, in spite of his political principles. We all watched this. You know better and are simply attempting to misdirect and mischaracterize here. It is a highly disingenuous argument and you know it. :rolleyes:
 
And the problems with a lack of regulation on the TARP funds are due to a poorly written bill by the Democrats (specifically Chris Dodd) who controlled the legislature when the bill was written.
Paulson created the first draft of the law, outlining what he wanted....

Congress added oversight, limits on executive pay and ownership stake for the government...

Congress than barely passed it - but they did. However, Paulson then just spent the money as he saw fit -

And this is the way the Bush administration worked - create a sense of urgency - write the bill, and then push it through congress. It was their modus operandi..

Credit Crisis — Bailout Plan

Mr. Paulson made his first proposal for a sweeping bailout of financial institutions on Sept. 19, 2008. He asked Congress for $700 billion to use to buy up mortgage-backed securities whose value had dropped sharply or had become impossible to sell, in what he called the Troubled Asset Rescue Plan, or TARP. As originally outlined by Paulson, the government would have bought up toxic mortgage-backed securities at a premium over their current deflated values. By paying "hold to maturity'' prices, Mr. Paulson said, the government would provide troubled firms with an infusion of capital, reducing doubts about their viability and thereby restoring investor confidence.

The plan in its original form was quickly rejected by both Democrats and Republicans in Congress and was criticized by many economists across the political spectrum. Congress insisted on adding provisions for oversight, limits on executive pay for participating companies and an ownership stake for the government in return for its investments.

Even so, Paulson's plan proved to be strikingly unpopular with an outraged public, and on Sept. 29 it failed in the House of Representatives, primarily from a lack of Republican support. But as the markets continued to plunge, a slightly altered version won the support first of the Senate, on Oct. 1, and of the House, on Oct. 3. President Bush quickly signed the bill.

Shortly afterward, Mr. Paulson reversed course, and decided to use the $350 billion in the first round of funds allocated by Congress not to buy toxic assets, but to inject cash directly into banks by purchasing shares, an approach that many Congressional Democrats had pushed for earlier. In an initial round of financing, nine of the largest banks were given $25 billion apiece.

The Treasury also used the bailout to steer funds to stronger banks to purchase weaker ones. To the dismay of many economists, no strings were attached to the Treasury infusions, and many of the banks appeared to be using the funds to bolster their balance sheets rather than to make new loans.

On Nov. 12, Mr. Paulson announced that he was abandoning the idea of asset purchases, and said the bailout money would be used instead for a broader campaign to bolster the financial markets and help consumers seeking loans for cars or tuition and other kinds of borrowing.

To the anger of many Democratic members, none of the first round was used to prevent further increases in foreclosures. An oversight panel created by the original bailout bill also delivered a round of stinging criticisms in its first report, delivered Dec. 10. The report said that the Treasury had failed to create a system to track how bailout funds were being used or to require that banks use them to increase lending and unfreeze credit markets.​

And unfortunately we are in for the whole enchilada with AIG. We will continue to bail them out, because we, the taxpayers, now owe 80% of them (thanks to Paulson). And I still need to talk to my judge friend regarding the bonus contracts for the AIG execs. It sure sounds like they have to pay those - that the execs could come back and sue for breach of contract if those bonuses weren't paid. Those contracts were signed in March 2008.

I am not being insincere here Shag - I just want others that are reading this to realize that the Bush Administration got the whole TARP ball rolling, and they were the ones that neglected to do any overseeing at all with the entire first half, 350 billion of our tax dollars. I would go as far as to say at least congress didn't let Paulson have his way with the 2nd half, they got something right there. The fact we know of these bonuses to AIG is because of the current oversight on the TARP funds. Who knows what went on when Paulson was playing Santa - there was no accountability whatsoever... There is evidence that Billions of dollars of bonuses went to Merrill Lynch employees... billions last year under Paulson's watch.

As Cal said, there is plenty of blame to go around... But, your 'first look' insistence on assigning blame to just Democrats isn't fair. In this case it took two to tango...

I will also say I don't like the idea of a special tax just for these bonuses - it is scary enough that Congress levies taxes, now as a form of revenge - that is awful. I hope they don't tax the bonuses separately, I think it would create a bad precedent, and on top of that, it might end up in the courts, depending on how things get done. I'm not sure on that - I need to call...
 
Paulson created the first draft of the law, outlining what he wanted....

Congress added oversight, limits on executive pay and ownership stake for the government...

Congress than barely passed it - but they did. However, Paulson then just spent the money as he saw fit -

None of that counters the point that the Democrats and specifically Chris Dodd put in the exemption on bonuses. Paulson did not do that. Dodd, a Democrat, did that.

Weather Paulson wrote the first draft or not (and I don't trust your mere assertion on that one, given your track record) is irrelevant. What matters is what was eventually passed.

And this is the way the Bush administration worked - create a sense of urgency - write the bill, and then push it through congress. It was their modus operandi..

This is a disingenuous talking point by the left that has no basis in reality. It is just a way for Democrat politicians to avoid responsibility. Bush never simply "pushed anything through". There is a little thing called separation of powers that you are ignoring. The president can use the bully pulpit all he wants and play up urgency, but congress still will or won't act according to what the representatives decide to do. If the representatives are that easily manipulated then they should be removed from office as incompetent. They are the ones that always create the final draft of the bill, debate it and vote to pass it. All the President can do is propose and sign into law, or veto.

As to which administration uses this tactic, Obama clearly does and did to get his porkulus through, with willing accomplices in the legislature and the media. Bush may have had some friends in the legislature for the first 6 years of his administration, but the MSM was decidedly hostile to him; even going so far as to manufacture smears against Bush.

In the instance of TARP, Bush was a lame duck president with a media hostile against him and a legislature hostile to him. Considering how divided the country was on this, there is no way he could use the bully pulpit to put enough populist pressure on congress to pass this thing. If the country largely supported this, that would be one thing, but they didn't largely support this. And if you will remember, it failed the first time due to the Democrats bogging it down with pork. TARP was a Democrat bill from the word go. I know a good number of Republicans voted against it. How many Democrats voted against it? Here is a line from that article you cited that you must have missed:
Even so, Paulson's plan proved to be strikingly unpopular with an outraged public, and on Sept. 29 it failed in the House of Representatives, primarily from a lack of Republican support.

Obama also voted for this. If he was actually duped and somehow made to force this due to Bush somehow "Strong-arming" this through, then he is utterly incompetent and should be removed from office.

You are also forgetting that Bush claimed to be a fiscal conservative; and on taxes, he was. He even said that TARP goes against his principles. If anyone got duped or "strong-armed" if to supporting this, it was Bush.

You cherry picked, revisionist history doesn't jive with reality.

Something else you need to remember, AIG holds the pensions of the Senators and Representatives of the Federal government. They are going to want AIG bailed out. Don't try and pretend that this was somehow Paulson doing this behind everyone's back and against everyone's wishes.

I am not being insincere here Shag

No, you are just echoing disingenuous leftist talking points. Again.

As Cal said, there is plenty of blame to go around... But, your 'first look' insistence on assigning blame to just Democrats isn't fair. In this case it took two to tango...

I never said that Bush didn't have any blame in this. But to say that he somehow pushed this through is inaccurate and mischaracterizes things. You are either being dishonest here, or really are incapable of looking past your own bias to see the truth (the latter is what my money is on).

You are trying to lay the blame mostly on Bush and Paulson, when it rests mostly with the Democrats. Remember, Bush couldn't push through amnesty with a friendly media (to that issue) and his party controlling both houses of the legislature because the people overwhelmingly didn't want amnesty. What makes you think he could push through TARP when his party is out of power, and the population doesn't want this. TARP would not have gotten through unless the Democrats wanted it. It was a Democrat bill from the word go.
 
More proof of oversight from Bush on TARP and none from Obama.

Has the Obama administration broken the law on TARP? It appears that it has violated a major law on oversight — by failing to provide any.

When Congress first created the TARP program, it insisted on oversight over the actions of the Treasury Secretary, rejecting the Bush proposal to allow Henry Paulson unlimited and unsupervised authority over $700 billion of taxpayer money. They created the Financial Stability Oversight Board (FINSOB), comprised of the Treasury Secretary, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, the Chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, and the Director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency. The law requires the board to meet on a monthly basis, but during the Bush administration it met at least every other week to review actions in relation to the bailouts.

Interim Assistant Secretary for Financial Stability Neel Kashkari testified before the House Financial Services Committee on December 10th about the oversight (emphases mine):
In addition to the normal oversight provided by Congressional committees of jurisdiction, the Congress established four important avenues of oversight: one, the Financial Stability Oversight Board; two, the Special Inspector General; three, the Government Accountability Office; and four, the Congressional Oversight Panel. I will review Treasury’s interaction with each body in detail.

First, we moved immediately to establish the Financial Stability Oversight Board, which, by law, includes: the Secretary of the Treasury, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, the Chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, and the Director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency.

The law required the first board meeting to take place within fourteen days. We moved very quickly, and the Oversight Board met within four days. At that initial meeting, the members of the Board selected Chairman Bernanke to be Chairman of the Oversight Board. The law requires the Board to meet once a month, but it has already met four times in the just two months since the law was signed, with numerous staff calls between meetings, and expects to meet again this week.

We have also posted the bylaws and minutes of the Board meetings on Treasury’s website. In addition, the Oversight Board has interacted with other oversight bodies, such as the GAO and the Congressional Oversight Panel.​
The listing of board minutes can be found on the Treasury’s website. However, according to this list, the last FINSOB meeting took place on January 15th of this year — five days before Barack Obama’s inauguration. The meeting was conducted via conference call. It was the last meeting in which former Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson participated.

According to this, current Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner has yet to participate in the oversight function Congress mandated by law. Despite receiving hundreds of billions of dollars in additional TARP funds, it appears that the current administration has performed zero oversight over it. Not only does that beg the question as to what Tim Geithner is actually doing as Treasury Secretary, it also makes it appear that Congress has no desire to protect the money it’s shoveling into the West Wing of the White House.

I have contacted the White House for any comment they may have on this matter, and I will update readers when they respond (via HA reader Morgen).

Update: John at Verum Serum finds an interesting excerpt from the November 2008 FINSOB meeting:
Treasury officials and Members then reviewed and discussed the restrictions that would apply to AIG under the terms of the investment, including restrictions on corporate expenses, restrictions on lobbying, and limitations on executive compensation that would apply under EESA, as well as the additional limitations that would apply to senior executive compensation and bonuses. In addition, AIG would be required to comply with certain corporate governance requirements, including the formation of a risk management committee under the company’s Board of Directors.​
So Treasury knew about the bonuses in November 2008. Maybe if they’d held the FINSOB meetings, Obama wouldn’t have been gobsmacked by them.

Update II: Here’s a better link to the FINSOB meeting minutes archive.
 
It seems pretty clear that Obama has absolutely no intention of fixing this mess. The longer it can be drawn out, the more he can exploit it. In fact, it almost seems like Obama is trying to bring about a bloodless version of the revolution Karl Marx talks about in the transition from capitalism to socialism in his writings. That would explain Obama's constant talking down of the economy and misdirection by scapegoating and demonizing certain groups (conservatives through Limbaugh, investors through AIG, etc.). Obama and the Democrats are intentionally stoking populist anger to drive a wedge between Americans; class warfare at its finest. :rolleyes:
 
Bush/Paulson basically pulled a Bush/Ashcroft (Patriot Act) by telling the congress it was do or die regarding TARP - with no chance to really read the bill, and large corporations on the verge of bankruptcy congress had to act.

Oh, as far as giving out the TARP funds -
American International Group is the biggest individual bailout recipient with $173 billion in aid...

That was as of November 25, 2009 AIG had received 173 billion - Paulson was the one that pushed for no strings...

And other tidbits...

A TARP report card - Nov 18, 2008
Meanwhile, with the TARP's focus having shifted radically in the space of two months, some now wonder just what Paulson's trying to accomplish. For instance, Treasury chose to withhold TARP funds from struggling Cleveland lender National City (NCC, Fortune 500), thereby forcing the bank into the arms of healthier PNC (PNC, Fortune 500). Actions like that suggest the Treasury may be pursuing a plan to decrease the number of banks - though it hasn't said so.

"It seems that Paulson and his staff haven't been entirely forthcoming with their intentions,"
said Hal Reichwald, a banking and finance lawyer at Manatt Phelps & Phillips in Los Angeles.

Reichwald says Paulson appears to have decided early on that the original TARP approach wouldn't work. But he didn't tell Congress, which Reichwald says would not have smiled upon a plan to pour hundreds of billions of dollars into banks without many strings attached.

Treasury's failure to fully and promptly explain its decisions to taxpayers isn't the only issue. The design of the TARP - which was presented to Congress in September, just days after the collapse of Lehman Brothers and the near implosion of AIG (AIG, Fortune 500) - has its critics too.​

So, congress approved funds, basically under dire threats from the Treasury, but Paulson went on a bailout spree - with no accountability he 'bought' the AIG elephant. Congress had no say in that matter. He bought it knowing that bonuses would have to be paid (because of legal contracts) and he didn't renegotiate those contracts when the first $173 billion was given to AIG.

TARP's original 350 billion is gone, Paulson saw to that - however, the half that Obama inherited mostly still sits - waiting a decision on how to best release the funds, including adding 'safe guards' and 'strings'.
Punch-Tu_Quoque_1904.jpg
 
None of that counters the point that the Democrats and specifically Chris Dodd put in the exemption on bonuses. Paulson did not do that. Dodd, a Democrat, did that.

I am not defending Dodd- I am saying that if Paulson bought this white elephant with some restrictions we wouldn't have to be worrying about this at this point... Now at least, we do have a law regarding bonuses given by companies that receive TARP funds. Under Paulson - no law whatsoever. What part of 'no accountability' don't you understand Shag? This Congress is trying to get laws enacted regarding TARP funds and compensation.

Weather Paulson wrote the first draft or not (and I don't trust your mere assertion on that one, given your track record) is irrelevant. What matters is what was eventually passed.
Shag - I gave you a link - you can believe it or not - but I did give you the link, to the NY Times here is another one... From CATO
How about another one from Bloomberg

So, what exactly is my track record Shag - got any bad links from me yet? I would really like to know - If you can't come up with a nice list, or even a couple - please refrain from using this type of statement again.

Once again - he wrote the first draft - which was amended and passed by congress - But, the 'all power remains with the treasury department,' was in the first draft and remained in the final bill.

Bush never simply "pushed anything through".

“If money isn’t loosened up, this sucker could go down,”
President Bush NY Times

Bush also used his dog Paulson and his assistant dog Bernanke...

Market conditions worsened, and this led Paulson to come up with the TARP, which Paulson rammed through Congress
- OpenMarket.org

A number of leading Democrats and Republicans expressed strong misgivings last Monday about the autocratic plan for bailing out Wall Street that Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson wants to ram through Congress. It remains to be seen whether this is mere posturing or serious opposition. - corpwatch.org

The 'ramming' was even noticed overseas...
Asian Times
Paulson actually got down on one knee (no, that was not a metaphor) and begged US speaker of the House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi to ignore the opposition and use the Democrats' then slim Congressional majority to ram the TARP through the lower chamber. - attimes.com
BBC
At a highly charged session of the Senate Banking Committee, Mr Bernanke told Congress that it risked a serious recession if it failed to implement the bailout. “Action by Congress is urgently required to stabilise the situation and avert what could otherwise be very serious consequences for our financial markets and our economy,” Bernanke said. - bbc News

There are lots...

And my very favorite from Paulson's own lips...

NBC Nightly News noted Paulson "says the crisis needs action now. There will be time for reform later." US News and World Report

Sounds like a lot of 'persuasion' to me...

You are also forgetting that Bush claimed to be a fiscal conservative; and on taxes, he was. He even said that TARP goes against his principles. If anyone got duped or "strong-armed" if to supporting this, it was Bush.
Bush a fiscal conservative - just because he cut taxes? Heck, you forgot that little bit about how much he and his 'congress' spent in their 6 years in power.... I can claim to be a conservative, doesn't make it true does it? And if anyone strong armed Bush, it was his boys - Paulson and Bernanke... In fact in his speeches during the time before the bailout he often referred to Paulson's view for the need for a bailout.

Something else you need to remember, AIG holds the pensions of the Senators and Representatives of the Federal government. They are going to want AIG bailed out. Don't try and pretend that this was somehow Paulson doing this behind everyone's back and against everyone's wishes.
Really shag - maybe I should call you on this little 'misdirection'
AIG does NOT insure the pensions of Congress
Pants on Fire!

An anonymous e-mail making the rounds claims that Congress has its own selfish reasons for bailing out the insurance company American International Group, better known as AIG.

"Remember when this economic crisis hit, and Congress let Bear Sterns go under, pushed a bunch of forced marriages between banks, etc.?" the e-mail asks.

"Then they bailed out AIG. At the time, I thought: 'That's strange. What does an insurance company have to do with this crisis?'

"I think I just found the answer. Among other things, AIG INSURES THE PENSION TRUST OF THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS!! No wonder they got bailed out right away!"

Note the classic signs of the chain e-mail — all capital letters and LOTS OF EXCLAMATION POINTS!!! But we digress ...​
Shag - follow the money honey.... And perhaps we should later discuss 'trust'

Paulson let over 170 billion dollars go to AIG with zero strings attached. And do you know where a nice chunk of the AIG money went (13 billion)? Back to Goldman Sachs - where Paulson's buddies work (long term buddies- he was their chairman before he was Secretary of the Treasury). Do you know that Goldman Sachs got 100 cents on the dollar for their questionable assets that were insured by AIG? Did you know they are they only company with assets insured by AIG that has received 100 cents on the dollar? Do you know that Goldman is sitting on 100 billion in CASH? 23 Billion of that belongs to us?

Why did AIG get all that money? Could it be that Paulson has backdoored TARP funds to his buddies at Goldman?
Sources
LA Times, Herald Tribune, The News Tribune

TARP was Paulson's bill from the word go - look at all the source shag - and then the scimitar of doom and gloom was held over everyone's heads regarding passing it... Democrats are at fault for not putting enough checks and balances in the first half -

Democrats are now fully responsible for the 2nd half - let's see if this half finally gets credit flowing, instead of just shoring up Paulson's buddies on Wall Street. Heck, at least we know about these bonuses that AIG is giving out - how many bonuses were handed over before now, when it was under Paulson's oligarchy watch?

And yes, Foss - 'you to' because Shag was stating, 'pas je'.
 
Uh, fox...

Paulson is a Democrat.

Not one of us agreed with anything he did in the first bailout.

You're trying to push a string.

Also, 'getting the credit flowing' is the wrong solution.

Deflation needs to occur, not more borrowing.

We're headed for disaster and your boy Oblahma the Cokehead will have all of it on his shoulders in less than 6 months.
 
I am not defending Dodd- I am saying that if Paulson bought this white elephant with some restrictions we wouldn't have to be worrying about this at this point...

Paulson could only put restrictions into the purchase contract that were allowed for in the bill that authorized him to make the purchases. That bill specifically forbade him to put any restrictions on executive bonuses before a certain date due to the Dodd Amendment in the bill.

Now at least, we do have a law regarding bonuses given by companies that receive TARP funds. Under Paulson - no law whatsoever. What part of 'no accountability' don't you understand Shag? This Congress is trying to get laws enacted regarding TARP funds and compensation.

We had no restrictions on bonuses under Paulson; but that is not due to Paulson, that is due to Congress putting things in the bill that prevented any restriction.

And what we have now is an abuse of power by Congress. It is unconstitutional and therefore, criminal. There is no justification for this law. Anyone who voted for it should be immediately removed from office. Before you ask how it is unconstitutional, look up "bill of attainder", "ex post facto law" and possibly the "contracts clause".

Besides, what did AIG do wrong? They did nothing illegal. What they did was something that Congress knew about at least as far back as November and allowed to happen. Obama voted to allow it as a Senator and recently signed a law allowing it as President, with full knowledge of this.

What is happening is that Congress and the White House is disingenuously looking to gin up populist anger to direct at the investor class. What we have now is mob rule and "McCarthyism" that destroys the lives of those who would create wealth and get us out of this recession.

I have said it before and I will keep saying it: anyone who is more outraged over the legal actions of AIG and it's execs then they are about the illegal and reckless abuse of power by the government is an emotional dupe

All AIG did wrong was conduct business as usual with Obama in power and scapegoating the investor class.

Shag - I gave you a link - you can believe it or not - but I did give you the link, to the NY Times here is another one... From CATO
How about another one from Bloomberg

So, what exactly is my track record Shag - got any bad links from me yet? I would really like to know - If you can't come up with a nice list, or even a couple - please refrain from using this type of statement again.

Your track record is to glean things from source that those sources do not say or imply.
  • In this thread, you are implying that a quote from Bush means that he "pushed" the TARP bill through Congress, which that doesn't prove at all ( I will get to that a little later).
  • In the Jon Stewart thread, you claim that Cramer deflated apple stock (post #12) when the video clip in question doesn't show that at all
  • In the "evangelical collapse" thread, you claim that certain quotes by Jefferson show that he didn't view rights as coming from God when those quotes show no such thing

That is only going back 13 days. I could go farther. The fact is that you have shown a consistent pattern of seeing what you want in sources when they don't clearly say, imply or support what you claim. Your interpretation of what you read cannot be reasonably trusted. Even when that is pointed out, you keep making the same assertions about that source and/or other sources (again, see the "evangelical collapse" thread). That is why I don't trust your interpretation.

Once again - he wrote the first draft - which was amended and passed by congress - But, the 'all power remains with the treasury department,' was in the first draft and remained in the final bill.

Paulson cannot go back and change the legislation, he never had that kind of power. Even if Paulson wanted to not allow for those bonuses, he had to allow for them due to the Dodd Amendment in the TARP bill. You are trying to blame something on Paulson that was clearly out of his hands.


“If money isn’t loosened up, this sucker could go down,”
President Bush NY Times

Wow, you cited a quote that shows that Bush supported the TARP bill. That in no way means that he "pushed it through". the president cannot get anything through congress by himself of simply with his aids alone. Name one time in the history of this nation where that happened.

The President always, always has to have some initial support in the legislature to get anything passed. Republicans were divided over this, many only holding their nose in support of this and the others actively against this. The support Bush got, and which ultimately made this bill into law, was overwhelmingly from the Democrat side of the isle.

Bush also used his dog Paulson and his assistant dog Bernanke...

Market conditions worsened, and this led Paulson to come up with the TARP, which Paulson rammed through Congress
- OpenMarket.org

A number of leading Democrats and Republicans expressed strong misgivings last Monday about the autocratic plan for bailing out Wall Street that Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson wants to ram through Congress. It remains to be seen whether this is mere posturing or serious opposition. - corpwatch.org

The 'ramming' was even noticed overseas...
Asian Times
Paulson actually got down on one knee (no, that was not a metaphor) and begged US speaker of the House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi to ignore the opposition and use the Democrats' then slim Congressional majority to ram the TARP through the lower chamber. - attimes.com
BBC
At a highly charged session of the Senate Banking Committee, Mr Bernanke told Congress that it risked a serious recession if it failed to implement the bailout. “Action by Congress is urgently required to stabilise the situation and avert what could otherwise be very serious consequences for our financial markets and our economy,” Bernanke said. - bbc News

There are lots...

And my very favorite from Paulson's own lips...

NBC Nightly News noted Paulson "says the crisis needs action now. There will be time for reform later." US News and World Report

Sounds like a lot of 'persuasion' to me...

Yes, but you consistently only hear what you want to hear in these type of things. None of those quotes show that those two somehow pushed this bill through Congress against their will and against their better judgement. The Democrats in wanted this bill.

It is more likely is that Bush was convinced by Paulson and Bernake, not the other way around. Those two were the ones pushing this from the word go, not Bush. The Democrats actively supported this bill, but Pelosi killed it the first time due too much pork. If anything, the bill was pushed through the White House, not the other way around.

You are actively trying to rewrite history.

Bush a fiscal conservative - just because he cut taxes? Heck, you forgot that little bit about how much he and his 'congress' spent in their 6 years in power.... I can claim to be a conservative, doesn't make it true does it?

And if you accurately read what I said, you would see that I acknowledged that, by implication, in the quote. Stop mischaracterizing me.

And if anyone strong armed Bush, it was his boys - Paulson and Bernanke... In fact in his speeches during the time before the bailout he often referred to Paulson's view for the need for a bailout.

Glad we agree on that. ;)

Really shag - maybe I should call you on this little 'misdirection'


Fair enough. Apparently I was mistaken.

Paulson let over 170 billion dollars go to AIG with zero strings attached.

At least in the area of bonuses, Paulson could not attach strings even if he wanted to due to the Democrats in the legislature.

TARP was Paulson's bill from the word go - look at all the source shag - and then the scimitar of doom and gloom was held over everyone's heads regarding passing it... Democrats are at fault for not putting enough checks and balances in the first half -

No doubt that Paulson pushed this, but that doesn't mean that the Democrats were duped (as you are implying). It is their responsibility to not allow something to simply be pushed through without any forethought and critical analysis. Instead, the Democrats looked at it as an opportunity to grab power and get a lot of pork through that they wanted. In short, Paulson wasn't the only one playing off the "doom and gloom" sentiment; the Democrats were actively doing so as well and benefited on a much more massive scale the Paulson and his buds ever could. Remember, this is the party that doesn't want to "let a good crisis go to waste".

Democrats are now fully responsible for the 2nd half - let's see if this half finally gets credit flowing, instead of just shoring up Paulson's buddies on Wall Street.

It won't get credit flowing. When credit starts flowing again, it won't be due to TARP. The credit market has to reach a new equilibrium and government efforts like TARP only frustrate that. When credit does start flowing, it will be in spite of the TARP bill. If you had a realistic understanding of economics instead of misguided keynsian propaganda, you would know that.

Heck, at least we know about these bonuses that AIG is giving out - how many bonuses were handed over before now, when it was under Paulson's oligarchy watch?

Is there something wrong with these companies paying out bonuses that the are contractually obligated to pay?

There was more oversight under Paulson and the Bush administration there there has been under Obama's watch. Didn't you read that blog I posted (post #10)?
When Congress first created the TARP program, it insisted on oversight over the actions of the Treasury Secretary, rejecting the Bush proposal to allow Henry Paulson unlimited and unsupervised authority over $700 billion of taxpayer money. They created the Financial Stability Oversight Board (FINSOB), comprised of the Treasury Secretary, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, the Chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, and the Director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency. The law requires the board to meet on a monthly basis, but during the Bush administration it met at least every other week to review actions in relation to the bailouts.

...The listing of board minutes can be found on the Treasury’s website. However, according to this list, the last FINSOB meeting took place on January 15th of this year — five days before Barack Obama’s inauguration. The meeting was conducted via conference call. It was the last meeting in which former Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson participated.
 
Paulson could only put restrictions into the purchase contract that were allowed for in the bill that authorized him to make the purchases. That bill specifically forbade him to put any restrictions on executive bonuses before a certain date due to the Dodd Amendment in the bill.

Ah, Shag – the Dodd amendment happened in February, as part of the stimulus package – not when the original bill was passed… You need to get your bills straight - we wouldn't want people to get them mixed up, would we? So, Paulson was acting without that little ‘addendum' because it wasn't in the original legislation.

And Paulson totally abandoned one idea, for another regarding the bailout – haven’t you been reading? He stopped making purchases of toxic assets – and went on a bank and insurance buying spree – and also enabled big banks to gobble up smaller banks… And when he went into the banks, he just gave them money – and those banks just used it as standing funds, instead of lending it – improving their balance sheets – (post 8)

We had no restrictions on bonuses under Paulson; but that is not due to Paulson, that is due to Congress putting things in the bill that prevented any restriction.
It was due to Paulson – he told Congress that he needed control of the funds – so he could remedy the problem. That was part of his ‘ramming’ it through congress.

And what we have now is an abuse of power by Congress. It is unconstitutional and therefore, criminal. There is no justification for this law. Anyone who voted for it should be immediately removed from office. Before you ask how it is unconstitutional, look up "bill of attainder", "ex post facto law" and possibly the "contracts clause".

Besides, what did AIG do wrong? They did nothing illegal. What they did was something that Congress knew about at least as far back as November and allowed to happen. Obama voted to allow it as a Senator and recently signed a law allowing it as President, with full knowledge of this.

And if you notice shag – I said very early on I didn’t agree with going back in and taxing the bonuses (post #8 again), and that it ‘it might end up in the courts, depending on how things get done. I'm not sure on that - I need to call...’

Now, Paulson, or yes, the Congress should have had a clause that indicated that bonus contracts would be null and void if money from the government was accepted, as part of the terms of accepting the money – that is what the congress has done since he left office.

I thought you like McCarthy…

Your track record is to glean things from source that those sources do not say or imply.

* In this thread, you are implying that a quote from Bush means that he "pushed" the TARP bill through Congress, which that doesn't prove at all ( I will get to that a little later).
• In the Jon Stewart thread, you claim that Cramer deflated apple stock (post #12) when the video clip in question doesn't show that at all
• In the "evangelical collapse" thread, you claim that certain quotes by Jefferson show that he didn't view rights as coming from God when those quotes show no such thing

1. Bush quote – take it how you will I think it shows that he certainly was stating that without the bill, the economy was toast (nothing ‘thumbscrews’ about that – huh?). Plus, his dogs also rammed the bill through - he is responsible for his pit bulls.

2. Cramer could have deflated Apple stock – it did go down significantly during that time frame. Many factors could have contributed to it, but since there is no way to remove Cramer from the mix, it remains as a possibility.

3. The Jefferson argument is about opinion. Do you want lots and lots of scholarly opinion that backs me up – how about Robert M.S. McDonald, Alan Pell Crawford, I’ve got lots of it Shag. Your opinion is wrong in this case. See I can make that claim as well. This was about opinion – not fact. Unless one of us can grab Jefferson ala ‘Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure’ it will remain opinion.

Shag, I do not get facts incorrect. Those examples you state are either opinion or speculation that cannot be proved or disproved, that is why we were debating them. If they were cold hard facts, there wouldn’t be opportunity for debate. However… Paulson didn’t write the first draft of TARP? AIG insured the government pensions? Thomas Paine was an atheist? Jefferson was a Christian? Those are provably wrong. They are facts that can be checked out and verified.

“If money isn’t loosened up, this sucker could go down,” President Bush NY Times
Wow, you cited a quote that shows that Bush supported the TARP bill. That in no way means that he "pushed it through". the president cannot get anything through congress by himself of simply with his aids alone. Name one time in the history of this nation where that happened.

The President always, always has to have some initial support in the legislature to get anything passed. Republicans were divided over this, many only holding their nose in support of this and the others actively against this. The support Bush got, and which ultimately made this bill into law, was overwhelmingly from the Democrat side of the isle.

And the president can create an atmosphere. In the case of TARP Bush fostered the need for legislation, and the urgency of such legislation. You say that Obama did it – regarding the ‘stimulus’ package, which he did, it is easy to see. Why does it only work on one side of the fence – oh, that’s right because your side of the fence is always right, and would never bully, and the left is always wrong, and uses strong arm tactics exclusively. Welcome to the big game Shag – it is played by big boy rules.. .which you obviously aren’t able to understand. Bush used the same tactics that presidents have been using since there have been presidents. Use the power of the office to change law, to change the country. Why bother being president if you don’t have any power? Plus, he could have vetoed this one (the House passed it with less than a 2/3rds majority) - it wouldn't have passed his veto... He wanted TARP.

Yes, but you consistently only hear what you want to hear in these type of things. None of those quotes show that those two somehow pushed this bill through Congress against their will and against their better judgement. The Democrats in wanted this bill.

It is more likely is that Bush was convinced by Paulson and Bernake, not the other way around. Those two were the ones pushing this from the word go, not Bush. The Democrats actively supported this bill, but Pelosi killed it the first time due too much pork. If anything, the bill was pushed through the White House, not the other way around.

Well, shag – let’s look at a couple of things. Paulson laid out the balance sheets, and his recommendation to fix them. Congress believed him. He held the figures, stated the need to move quickly and decisively, and Congress believed him. Isn’t that what the secretary of the treasury is for – someone who can ‘condense’ a complicated situation, create solutions, and present them in a viable form to congress?

And now you finally admit at least PaulsonBernake were pushing – darn right they were pushing. And they pushed the president, which in turned went on national TV, to convince the American people to call their congress people to get this bill passed.

At least in the area of bonuses, Paulson could not attach strings even if he wanted to due to the Democrats in the legislature.

Really – why not? He was making up the rules as he went – he gave money to companies that weren’t suppose to get money, He gave the money out to shore up balance sheets instead of strengthen assets… He knows the players on the Street – that is why there were any ‘rules’… not because of Congress.

No doubt that Paulson pushed this, but that doesn't mean that the Democrats were duped (as you are implying). It is their responsibility to not allow something to simply be pushed through without any forethought and critical analysis. Instead, the Democrats looked at it as an opportunity to grab power and get a lot of pork through that they wanted. In short, Paulson wasn't the only one playing off the "doom and gloom" sentiment; the Democrats were actively doing so as well and benefited on a much more massive scale the Paulson and his buds ever could. Remember, this is the party that doesn't want to "let a good crisis go to waste".

Ah, again – Paulson pushed – music to my ears… ;). Congress was told if they didn’t do something immediately it would be over – the American economic system would be history. McCain believed it so much he curtailed his presidential campaign. Everyone thought that hours mattered, not just days. You don’t write decent legislation in hours Shag – Paulson was betting on that. So tell me who benefited more than Wall Street, the banks and the large insurance companies – OK shag? Heck, I would take one special interest that pulled more money than AIG did alone. Heck I would take all the pork, and put it up against AIG.

It won't get credit flowing. When credit starts flowing again, it won't be due to TARP. The credit market has to reach a new equilibrium and government efforts like TARP only frustrate that. When credit does start flowing, it will be in spite of the TARP bill. If you had a realistic understanding of economics instead of misguided keynsian propaganda, you would know that.

How convenient – you can say – oh my, credit is now flowing because thing are balanced and the sun is shining on the economic world, it has nothing to do with TARP. Can’t remove it now shag – if credit flows, the Dems will take credit. Sorry… they do know how to play the big game, they are gambling, just like the Republicans are placing all their money on the other scenario. Both have bet the house – it will be interesting to see who takes all the chips…

When Congress first created the TARP program, it insisted on oversight over the actions of the Treasury Secretary, rejecting the Bush proposal to allow Henry Paulson unlimited and unsupervised authority over $700 billion of taxpayer money. They created the Financial Stability Oversight Board (FINSOB), comprised of the Treasury Secretary, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, the Chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, and the Director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency. The law requires the board to meet on a monthly basis, but during the Bush administration it met at least every other week to review actions in relation to the bailouts.

How nice – that looks like a very unpartisan regulatory Board - Paulson, Bernake, Chris Cox, Alphonso Jackson, James B. Lockhart III. All Bush’s appointees… Sort of like having the fox watch the henhouse isn’t Shag?
 
Tsk tsk, fox...You conveniently forgot to mention that Obama voted for and supported TARP. And he's already done TARP II.

So do you or do you not agree with TARP?
 
Ah, Shag – the Dodd amendment happened in February, as part of the stimulus package – not when the original bill was passed… You need to get your bills straight - we wouldn't want people to get them mixed up, would we?

Opps. So, Obama signed the protection on bonuses into law, not Bush. ;)

It was due to Paulson – he told Congress that he needed control of the funds – so he could remedy the problem. That was part of his ‘ramming’ it through congress.

You have yet to provide anything more then assertions that Paulson was "ramming" anything through Congress. Congress is responsible for that bill as much, if not more then Paulson. You are repeating a talking point aimed at dishonestly shifting the blame chiefly to Paulson and Bush.

Now, Paulson, or yes, the Congress should have had a clause that indicated that bonus contracts would be null and void if money from the government was accepted, as part of the terms of accepting the money – that is what the congress has done since he left office.

Congress dictated that bill and had final say on it. All Paulson can do is suggest and promote the bill.

1. Bush quote – take it how you will I think it shows that he certainly was stating that without the bill, the economy was toast (nothing ‘thumbscrews’ about that – huh?). Plus, his dogs also rammed the bill through - he is responsible for his pit bulls.

No one rammed anything through. All you have to offer is assertions to prove your point; an assertion that flys in the face of how the Federal government works and the history of the TARP bill. Bush was a lame duck president with very low poll numbers, a Congress controlled by the political opposition and a presidential election going on that he wasn't a part of. He had no political clout. Even if he could have actually pushed something through Congress on his own, he could not have pushed anything through Congress at that point. Only if they wanted it could it have passed. The republicans did not want this, the Dems did want this. To claim that someone outside of Congress pushed this through is like saying that someone forces you to accept a winning lotto ticket.

2. Cramer could have deflated Apple stock – it did go down significantly during that time frame. Many factors could have contributed to it, but since there is no way to remove Cramer from the mix, it remains as a possibility.

You did not say Cramer "could have". In post 12 of that thread you said that, in the footage in question, Cramer was talking about how he deflated Apple stock by spreading rumors. Cramer never said anything of the sort in that clip. Now you are trying to change what you were claiming from the source in question. More dishonesty.:rolleyes:

3. The Jefferson argument is about opinion. Do you want lots and lots of scholarly opinion that backs me up – how about Robert M.S. McDonald, Alan Pell Crawford, I’ve got lots of it Shag. Your opinion is wrong in this case. See I can make that claim as well. This was about opinion – not fact. Unless one of us can grab Jefferson ala ‘Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure’ it will remain opinion.

The argument is not about opinion, it is about what the facts show. You were citing sources that did not support your opinion. You were arguing that because they didn't directly support my opinion they support your opinion.

My opinion is supported by the facts, as I clearly demonstrated. Yours is based in distortion of those facts. What ever scholars you can find to support your view is irrelevant; a fallacious appeal to authority on your part. Their educational background does not mean that they are right.

Shag, I do not get facts incorrect. Those examples you state are either opinion or speculation that cannot be proved or disproved, that is why we were debating them.

No, but you habitually draw conclusions from those facts that they do not support. The examples I cited are rather clear. You cited examples in all those cases as proof of your assertion when they didn't prove your assertions and were simply vague at best. The only way those facts support your assertions is through spin, assumptions and logical leaps. That is how you argue, by spin. You thrive on vagueness so you can distort. There is no honesty in that type of debating.

If they were cold hard facts, there wouldn’t be opportunity for debate.

So, no one would want to distort those facts to fit their agenda and try to revise history. :rolleyes:

People will debate anything in an attempt to distort it to fit their agenda. All that is required is a lack of intellectual honesty and integrity. There are plenty of people like that in society.

And the president can create an atmosphere. In the case of TARP Bush fostered the need for legislation, and the urgency of such legislation.

Again, Bush was a lame duck president with a presidential election going on (and monopolizing the news), a legislature controlled by the opposition party and very low poll numbers. He didn't have enough clout to "create and atmosphere".

The only real tool he would have had was the bully pulpit to leverage public opinion against congress. At the time the bill was passed, the country was not supportive of the bill, they were divided at best. Less then 50% supported the bill and less then 50% opposed the bill.

In fact, Pelosi and Reid were pushing this bill, and urging Bush "to keep up the push to pass the Wall Street bailout package". That sure doesn't seem like Bush was pushing the bill against their wishes, as you are implying.

In fact, Pelosi called House GOP "unpatriotic" for "boycotting" negotiations on this.

Why does it only work on one side of the fence – oh, that’s right because your side of the fence is always right, and would never bully, and the left is always wrong, and uses strong arm tactics exclusively.

When did Bush use "strong-arm" tactics? All you have are baseless liberal talking points to prove that Bush used strong arm tactics.

Welcome to the big game Shag – it is played by big boy rules.. .which you obviously aren’t able to understand.

False bravado? :rolleyes:

You have no clue what you are talking about here. A habit you have demonstrated countless times in this forum on any number of subjects. Now you have to start talking about some vague "game" as a mechanism to smear me by ridiculing me for ignorance of this "game"? You really are desperate and petty, aren't you. :rolleyes:

Bush didn't have the means to push anything through congress at this point, and no president can push anything through congress without at least very large public support, which Bush (and the bailout) did not have. Pelosi and Reid (as well as the majority of Democrats) wanted this bill, that is why it passed.

You are trying to downplay their responsibility and dishonestly shift the blame to Bush and co., but you haven't yet drawn that connection because you can't.

Bush used the same tactics that presidents have been using since there have been presidents. Use the power of the office to change law, to change the country. Why bother being president if you don’t have any power?

You clearly don't know what the role of the president is. But I'm the ignorant one, right? :rolleyes:

Plus, he could have vetoed this one (the House passed it with less than a 2/3rds majority) - it wouldn't have passed his veto... He wanted TARP.

I never said Bush didn't want TARP.

And now you finally admit at least PaulsonBernake were pushing – darn right they were pushing.

I never said they weren't. I said they didn't ram this through congress, and it is clear that they didn't. That is not at all easy to do from outside the legislature. Only by leveraging massive public sentiment against congress is that even possible. That didn't happen in this case.

And they pushed the president, which in turned went on national TV, to convince the American people to call their congress people to get this bill passed.

And the president failed. The country didn't overwhelmingly support this. A rasmussen poll conducted the day this bill was first voted on in the House showed only 45% supported the Congress plan while 44% thought, "Wall Street should take care of its own problems". A Pew Research poll from around the same time showed that in surveys conducted between 19-22 September and 27-29 September showed that support for a bail-out plan fell from 57% to 48%.

The only way Bush (or any of his staff) could "ram" something through congress is by leveraging public sentiment. Public sentiment was never in favor of this.

Really – why not? He was making up the rules as he went – he gave money to companies that weren’t suppose to get money, He gave the money out to shore up balance sheets instead of strengthen assets… He knows the players on the Street – that is why there were any ‘rules’… not because of Congress.

He wasn't "making up the rules as he went", he was functioning under inadequate rules and direction in the legislation.

Congress was told if they didn’t do something immediately it would be over – the American economic system would be history.

So what? Unless the leaders are pushing this, it is getting no where. Congress, by design, works very slowly. Only by Pelosi and Reid pushing this, could it get through so quickly.

You don’t write decent legislation in hours Shag – Paulson was betting on that.

You act as if this was some nefarious scheme of Paulson's that he conned everyone into buying into. That wasn't the case. Another fallacious argument; this time a fallacy of the single cause:
is a logical fallacy of causation that occurs when it is assumed that there is one, simple cause of an outcome when in reality it may have been caused by a number of only jointly sufficient causes.

So tell me who benefited more than Wall Street, the banks and the large insurance companies – OK shag?

Tell me who else creates wealth and drives the economy.

How convenient – you can say – oh my, credit is now flowing because thing are balanced and the sun is shining on the economic world, it has nothing to do with TARP. Can’t remove it now shag – if credit flows, the Dems will take credit. Sorry… they do know how to play the big game, they are gambling, just like the Republicans are placing all their money on the other scenario. Both have bet the house – it will be interesting to see who takes all the chips…

More talk of a "game" which I apparently don't know about. I only know how the economy works, which you how shown that you have no accurate or realist understanding of.

If you had taken even a basic economics course, you would have learned about market equilibrium. The market is always self correcting.

The whole "convenient" thing you are talking about is only really applicable to the claims that the bailout worked. The market will eventually correct itself, the bailout will not change that and will not bring the market out. So when they claim that the bailout did bring the us out of the credit slump, it is a type of post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
 

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