Bush's vision, and the region, appear to be near collapse

97silverlsc

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ANALYSIS
Bush's vision, and the region, appear to be near collapse

Marc Sandalow, Washington Bureau Chief
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/19/MNGBLK1AA025.DTL&type=politics
Wednesday, July 19, 2006


(07-19) 04:00 PDT Washington -- The Bush administration's notion that toppling Saddam Hussein would stabilize a turbulent region is among the casualties of this week's Middle East carnage.

The death toll in Lebanon and Israel, which exceeds 250 in the past week, is a grim reminder that the sectarian violence in Baghdad 500 miles to the east is but one of many hotspots in a region that has been plagued by violence for more than 1,000 years.

The oft-stated hope that a new Iraqi government would swiftly transform the region's fractured politics has been realized with unintended consequences: an emboldened Iran; the victory of Hamas in Palestinian elections; and Syria's departure from Lebanon. The familiar strain has been hatred between the Arabs and Israelis and a widely held assumption that the situation will grow worse before it improves.

"Unless and until you solve the Arab-Israel conflict, you are going to have instability in the region,'' said Steven Cook, a fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York.

Some scholars view the situation from the opposite direction. Coit Blacker, director of Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies at Stanford, believes that "there is no answer to the Arab-Israel conflict until the nature of politics within the region changes substantially.''

Yet there is wide agreement that more than three years after attacking Iraq, the administration's mission to build a democracy that would foster stability -- the most often cited reason to go to war after ridding Hussein of his weapons of mass destruction -- is a long way from being accomplished.

"Partly as a result of what's happening in Iraq, the whole region seems to be separating along sectarian lines,'' said Michael Sterner, former U.S. ambassador to the United Arab Emirates and an assistant secretary of state under President Jimmy Carter.

"I haven't seen every clash as being something that portends doom, but it's a trend that is rather dangerous in my opinion. It could really spell trouble,'' Sterner said.

The path from the U.S. invasion of Iraq to this week's clash between Israel and Hezbollah is a matter of conjecture. However, most analysts agree that Syria and Iran are behind Hezbollah's actions, and have been stirred, in part, by the 2003 attack.

"It's an inescapable fact, as uncomfortable as it is, that the ... Iranian position is stronger than it otherwise would be,'' Blacker said. "It's not an accident that on the more traditional Middle East front, things are heating up again. The Iranians are trying to send a concrete signal.''

The overthrow of Iran's Sunni enemies in Iraq has "created an Iranian moment,'' Cook said

The Syrians, who are largely Sunnis, withdrew from Lebanon last year, a move which was widely hailed as a positive consequence of Hussein's demise. Yet they left behind a government in Lebanon, though democratically elected, apparently too weak to control the violent Hezbollah forces who have been firing missiles at the Israelis and killing scores of its citizens.

This was not the sort of geopolitical shakeup predicted by President Bush when he declared two weeks before the Iraq invasion that "acting against the danger will also contribute greatly to the long-term safety and stability of our world.''

Although such stability in the future is not out of the question, it is clear that the Bush administration expected results far more quickly.

Pentagon adviser Richard Perle, an administration confidant who was among the strongest proponents of the notion that overthrowing Hussein would stabilize the region, insisted at the time the war began that the fruits of Iraq's liberation would come quickly.

"We want to bring real stability to the region,'' Perle said in a 2003 debate sponsored by Foreign Policy magazine. "We will hand over power quickly -- not in years, maybe not even in months -- to give Iraqis a chance to shape their own destiny. The world will see this.''

Perle said the chances for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict "will improve as soon as Saddam is gone,'' and asserted that afterward "we will have a very good opportunity ... to persuade Syria to stop sponsoring terrorism.

"I promise we will be more effective in that if we remove Hussein,'' Perle said, exhibiting the confidence shared by many in the administration.

Three years later, it is the attack on Iraq that many critics cite as the reason that Bush is unable to engage Syria. Rather than directly taking to Syrian President Bashar Assad, Bush told British Prime Minister Tony Blair that he wishes U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan would apply such pressure. It was in the same conversation, which unbeknownst to Bush and Blair was being captured by an open microphone, that Bush said: "The thing is, what they need to do is to get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this s -- and it's over.''

It is uncertain that any amount of diplomacy could have stopped the recent violence. Previous presidents have invested far more time and effort in Middle East negotiations, without lasting results. Yet Bush must now battle the perception, certainly throughout the Arab world, that he has embarked on a policy of failure.

According to Hisham Milhem, Washington correspondent for the Lebanese paper Al-Nahar, there is a sense that "America's moment in the Middle East has come to an end, or to be specific, George Bush's moment in the Middle East is over ... and that the Americans are drowning in Iraq's quicksand, that the American project, the drive to spread democracy in the Middle East, has reached a dead end.''

In the weeks before the war began, Bush said that "old patterns of conflict in the Middle East can be broken. ... America will seize every opportunity in pursuit of peace. And the end of the present regime in Iraq would create such an opportunity.''

Yet the consequences have not been what Bush envisioned.

"Even if you defeat one group, what happens if you create an environment where others will take its place, whether it is in Lebanon or in Syria?'' asked Shibley Telhami, a Middle East expert at the University of Maryland.

Your doing a fine job, Shrubby!
 
No. The Muslim hatred for Israel has absolutely nothing to do with the U.S. presence in Iraq.

But it does mean we have a lot of troops, intelligence, and staging areas very close by to launch strikes on Iran or Syria is need be.
 
Calabrio said:
No. The Muslim hatred for Israel has absolutely nothing to do with the U.S. presence in Iraq.

But it does mean we have a lot of troops, intelligence, and staging areas very close by to launch strikes on Iran or Syria is need be.

I do see your point that having Iraq as a staging ground for an all out war with Iran, Syria and Lebanon if need be is a great advantage. But as evidence proving that Iran is the source of terrorism/conflict in the Middle East slowly comes out of the woodwork; wouldn't it have been better to have gone against Iran and not Iraq? Saddam was a f@cknut bastard, no one denies that, but he did keep our enemies Iran and the Taliban in check.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Saddam was a f@cknut bastard, no one denies that, but he did keep our enemies Iran and the Taliban in check.
Don't you understand that this whole Middle East conflict depends on who has the biggest and most lethal gun? If Iran gets a nuke, watch out. They will use it and nothing Saddam would say could sway them. We are in a long, long war of hate vs the West. The only way out as i see it is to kill them all, or as many as needed to bring peace, or to get our crap together and become less reliant on foreign energy. But make no mistake, ignoring them, now or in the future would be a grave mistake. They want us dead whether we are over there or not. If we pull out, they will come to us eventually and the hits we will suffer will be astronomical in scope.
 
95DevilleNS said:
I do see your point that having Iraq as a staging ground for an all out war with Iran, Syria and Lebanon if need be is a great advantage. But as evidence proving that Iran is the source of terrorism/conflict in the Middle East slowly comes out of the woodwork; wouldn't it have been better to have gone against Iran and not Iraq? Saddam was a f@cknut bastard, no one denies that, but he did keep our enemies Iran and the Taliban in check.

What the he!! are you talking about? You just said as current information continues to come out (present or future tense), we should have (past tense) done something? In what? H.G. Wells' time machine? :mad: What the he|| kind of logic is that?

(I'm sorry Bryan for what I'm about to say, but I can't help it)

Deville, either you are doing contortions to try to criticize Bush or you really are as stupid as a box of rocks.
 
MonsterMark said:
Don't you understand that this whole Middle East conflict depends on who has the biggest and most lethal gun? If Iran gets a nuke, watch out. They will use it and nothing Saddam would say could sway them. We are in a long, long war of hate vs the West. The only way out as i see it is to kill them all, or as many as needed to bring peace, or to get our crap together and become less reliant on foreign energy. But make no mistake, ignoring them, now or in the future would be a grave mistake. They want us dead whether we are over there or not. If we pull out, they will come to us eventually and the hits we will suffer will be astronomical in scope.

I agree with you except for the part about becoming less reliant on foreign energy. What would that have to do with Islamo-fascist nations like Syria, Iran, and (yes, even) Saudi Arabia and their determination to destroy (kill) us? We're going to be at war with them and North Korea at some point. Maybe even with Europe again. Mark my words. Better to get the Middle East out of the way first so we don't have to fight all these creeps at the same time.
 
95DevilleNS said:
I do see your point that having Iraq as a staging ground for an all out war with Iran, Syria and Lebanon if need be is a great advantage. But as evidence proving that Iran is the source of terrorism/conflict in the Middle East slowly comes out of the woodwork; wouldn't it have been better to have gone against Iran and not Iraq? Saddam was a f@cknut bastard, no one denies that, but he did keep our enemies Iran and the Taliban in check.

No, because if that were the case, we'd have Hussein lobbing chemical weapons at our troops from Iraq. And where would we stage an attack on Iran if Iraq were still under Hussein's control.

No Islamic country would dare support American troops because they would be attacked by their radical populations.
 
fossten said:
What the he!! are you talking about? You just said as current information continues to come out (present or future tense), we should have (past tense) done something? In what? H.G. Wells' time machine? :mad: What the he|| kind of logic is that?

(I'm sorry Bryan for what I'm about to say, but I can't help it)

Deville, either you are doing contortions to try to criticize Bush or you really are as stupid as a box of rocks.

Lol, you just can't help yourself from not being an @sshole huh?

But anyhow, considering that not everyone agreed Iraq/Saddam should have been the target to attack in 'The War On Terror', I am saying that that presumption is coming into light considering what we are facing now.
 
Calabrio said:
No, because if that were the case, we'd have Hussein lobbing chemical weapons at our troops from Iraq. And where would we stage an attack on Iran if Iraq were still under Hussein's control. .

Good point, but I do not believe Saddam would have allied himself with Iran; he would have probably been happy to watch America take out a long time rival if it secured his place as Iraq's ruler abosulte for another twenty years being the power hungry glutton he is.

Calabrio said:
No Islamic country would dare support American troops because they would be attacked by their radical populations.

And that is an excellent point which I did not consider.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Lol, you just can't help yourself from not being an @sshole huh?

But anyhow, considering that not everyone agreed Iraq/Saddam should have been the target to attack in 'The War On Terror', I am saying that that presumption is coming into light considering what we are facing now.

I'm sorry for calling you stupid. Really.

I thought you were just trying too hard to criticize Bush, so I used the stupid comment as a false choice.

My bad.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Good point, but I do not believe Saddam would have allied himself with Iran; he would have probably been happy to watch America take out a long time rival if it secured his place as Iraq's ruler abosulte for another twenty years being the power hungry glutton he is.

The history of that region shows that unnatural alliances will quickly form, especially if its battling the U.S.

But, barring Hussein launching attacks from behind, the sole reason for the invasion of Iraq wasn't just providing a regional staging area, it was just one of the reasons. He was a destabilizing influence, a threat to the region, a state sponsor of terrorism, and a threat to the U.S. He was still acting in defiance of the UN and the terms of the cease fire after Dessert Storm.

The list of reasons for removing him should be getting longer as longer as more people start to honestly look at this region and assess it.
 
fossten said:
I'm sorry for calling you stupid. Really.

I thought you were just trying too hard to criticize Bush, so I used the stupid comment as a false choice.

My bad.

Apology accepted.
 
Mosques bombed, tense Baghdad under curfew
Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:49am ET144
By Ahmed Rasheed and Mariam Karouny
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsA...10437415_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ.xml&archived=False
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Bombs killed two worshippers at mosques in Iraq during Friday prayers and the authorities extended a daytime curfew on Baghdad after one of the bloodiest weeks this year.

On the eve of a high-profile meeting intended to demonstrate reconciliation among sectarian and ethnic factions ahead of a White House visit by the prime minister, senior leaders admitted to despair about the chances of averting all-out civil war.

"Iraq as a political project is finished," a top government official told Reuters -- anonymously because the coalition of Shi'ite Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki remains committed in public to a U.S.-sponsored constitution preserving Iraq's unity.

"The parties have moved to Plan B," the official said, saying Sunni, ethnic Kurdish and majority Shi'ite blocs were looking at ways to divide power and resources and to solve the conundrum of Baghdad's mixed population of seven million.

"There is serious talk of Baghdad being divided into east and west," said the official, who has long been a proponent of the present government's objectives. "We are extremely worried."

Officials and delegates from a range of political, tribal, regional and religious groups will meet in Baghdad's fortified Green Zone government compound on Saturday for the inaugural meeting of the National Reconciliation Commission.

Maliki, who meets President Bush on Tuesday, has described a 24-point reconciliation plan outlined a month ago as a "last chance" for peace.

So far, however, it is unclear what substance it has beyond vague promises of amnesty for former rebels and a call for political parties' militias to disarm.

U.S. Republicans hope better news from Iraq will help the ruling party at congressional elections in November and maintain hopes that American soldiers can start coming home soon.

MOSQUES BOMBED

Bombs outside Sunni mosques in Khalis, north of the capital, and in the mainly Shi'ite east of Baghdad, each killed one man and wounded two during weekly prayers, police said.

There were also new clashes in Mahmudiya, a violent town just south of the city where nearly 60 people were killed in a mass assault by gunmen on Monday. Three police and three Iraqi soldiers were killed in Friday's fighting, police said.

U.S. troops killed two women and a three-year-old girl during a raid that, they said, also killed two suspected al Qaeda militants in violent Diyala province northwest of Baghdad.

State television announced a four-hour traffic ban in force in the city every Friday would be extended until 7 p.m. A nightly nine-hour curfew from 9 p.m. also remains in effect.

U.S. commanders see a looming fight to the finish in Baghdad between the two-month-old unity government and Sunni Arab rebels with links to al Qaeda and ousted president Saddam Hussein.

The U.S. ambassador has warned that a greater threat may be the mounting sectarian violence between Sunnis and Shi'ites.

That has brought a risk that millions of ordinary but almost universally armed Iraqis may be dragged into all-out civil war

U.S., Iraqi and international leaders have sounded alarms this week as new data showed tens of thousands of people have fled their homes in fear of death squads and that some 6,000 civilians may have been killed in just two months.

U.S. data showed attacks on security forces in Baghdad averaged 34 a day over several days, compared to 24 in recent months. Baghdad morgue has taken in 1,000 bodies this month.

Describing the capital as a "must-win" for both the rebels and the government, U.S. military spokesman Major General William Caldwell conceded on Thursday that a month-old clampdown in Baghdad had achieved only a "slight downtick" in violence.

(Additional reporting by Alastair Macdonald, Hiba Moussa and Michael Georgy)
 
97silverlsc said:
ANALYSIS
The oft-stated hope that a new Iraqi government would swiftly transform the region's fractured politics has been realized with unintended consequences: an emboldened Iran; the victory of Hamas in Palestinian elections; and Syria's departure from Lebanon.

Um, thats a negative. The liberal screaming and kicking about how we are going about this whole thing has emboldened iran and sent the rest of that chit spiraling out of control. Get a nice warm glass of STFU and be amazed how things cool off.

"Unless and until you solve the Arab-Israel conflict, you are going to have instability in the region,'' said Steven Cook, a fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York.

Yeah, well then I am starting the LVC council on foreign affairs. It will only include fossten and I. That makes us experts because we are on our own foreign council. Whatever we say is true.....

Some scholars view the situation from the opposite direction. Coit Blacker, director of Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies at Stanford, believes that "there is no answer to the Arab-Israel conflict until the nature of politics within the region changes substantially.''

Which will happen as democracy slowly encompasses the region

Yet there is wide agreement that more than three years after attacking Iraq, the administration's mission to build a democracy that would foster stability -- the most often cited reason to go to war after ridding Hussein of his weapons of mass destruction -- is a long way from being accomplished.

The mission was accomplished. We freed Iraq from the dictator we went to topple. The people no longer worry about saying saddam sucks and getting tortured. Now, we push forward with gov't aspects.

"Partly as a result of what's happening in Iraq, the whole region seems to be separating along sectarian lines,'' said Michael Sterner, former U.S. ambassador to the United Arab Emirates and an assistant secretary of state under President Jimmy Carter.

One mans opinion. Its no different than Micheal Dukakis saying we should start growing potatos in bermuda. Its irrelevant what this ex political person says.

The path from the U.S. invasion of Iraq to this week's clash between Israel and Hezbollah is a matter of conjecture. However, most analysts agree that Syria and Iran are behind Hezbollah's actions, and have been stirred, in part, by the 2003 attack.

Do you really think that syria and Iran needed us to stir the pot? If so, what about all the chit that happened prior to 2003? Whose fault was all that? Well, whose?

"It's an inescapable fact, as uncomfortable as it is, that the ... Iranian position is stronger than it otherwise would be,'' Blacker said. "It's not an accident that on the more traditional Middle East front, things are heating up again. The Iranians are trying to send a concrete signal.''

That they'd have sent reguardless of our current status. Morons like Iran don't just up one day and start causing chit because. They have been for years, and will continue until stopped....Thanks Jimmy Carter

"We want to bring real stability to the region,'' Perle said in a 2003 debate sponsored by Foreign Policy magazine. "We will hand over power quickly -- not in years, maybe not even in months -- to give Iraqis a chance to shape their own destiny. The world will see this.''

This is still politics people

Perle said the chances for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict "will improve as soon as Saddam is gone,'' and asserted that afterward "we will have a very good opportunity ... to persuade Syria to stop sponsoring terrorism.

And as well it would have if not for not getting worldwide support to end terrorism

Three years later, it is the attack on Iraq that many critics cite as the reason that Bush is unable to engage Syria. Rather than directly taking to Syrian President Bashar Assad, Bush told British Prime Minister Tony Blair that he wishes U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan would apply such pressure. It was in the same conversation, which unbeknownst to Bush and Blair was being captured by an open microphone, that Bush said: "The thing is, what they need to do is to get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this s -- and it's over.''

And? God forbid Kofi has to do something other than act like that stupid Red stripe beer guy and say "Boo US" "Hooray Kofi and the UN"

"Even if you defeat one group, what happens if you create an environment where others will take its place, whether it is in Lebanon or in Syria?'' asked Shibley Telhami, a Middle East expert at the University of Maryland.

Sooner or later, they will all be gone with support from the rest of the world, thats how.

ANd think about this. You download google earth and you can see what type of car was parked in front of your house on the day the picture of that map was taken. Don't you think the gov't has bigger and better pictures everyday that shows them every movement and in such detail that they could count the hair on saddams ass if they tried?
 
fossten said:
Another article posted by Phil with no apparent point. :rolleyes:

Point is Shrub's policies are a failure, Iraq is on the verge of civil war, and you can't create a democracy at the end of a gun barrel!!!:)
 
97silverlsc said:
Point is Shrub's policies are a failure, Iraq is on the verge of civil war, and you can't create a democracy at the end of a gun barrel!!!:)
And a democracy can't form unless it has a gun.
 
97silverlsc said:
Point is Shrub's policies are a failure, Iraq is on the verge of civil war, and you can't create a democracy at the end of a gun barrel!!!:)

But you would prefer Islam, which demands obedience at the point of a sword.

Iraq's been on the "verge" of civil war for how long now? Still hasn't happened. When will you guys stop rooting for it to happen and just support the Iraqis? Why not cheer them on for a change? They've had a bit of rough luck over the past 4 decades thanks to Saddam, now they've caught a break.

Hate hate hate hate hate. That's all you do.
 
97silverlsc said:
Point is Shrub's policies are a failure, Iraq is on the verge of civil war, and you can't create a democracy at the end of a gun barrel!!!:)
The deficit is shrinking, the economy is growing, the stock market is over 11000 for the first time in god knows how long, and I just got a 6% raise. Yeah, his policies and the country are in failure status right now. Wake up fool! Stop reading the onion and look at wall street!
 
stang99x said:
The deficit is shrinking, the economy is growing, the stock market is over 11000 for the first time in god knows how long, and I just got a 6% raise. Yeah, his policies and the country are in failure status right now. Wake up fool! Stop reading the onion and look at wall street!

Majority of people on wall street are high priced crooks or wannabe high priced crooks. They applaud and bid up companies that are run by other high priced crooks that take benefits and pensions away from working people and give themselves golden parachutes, stock options and large bonuses for taking benefits away from the workers and/or running the business into the ground. Last place I would look to judge the "quality of life" in this country. The only fool I see around here is you!!
 
97silverlsc said:
Majority of people on wall street are high priced crooks or wannabe high priced crooks. They applaud and bid up companies that are run by other high priced crooks that take benefits and pensions away from working people and give themselves golden parachutes, stock options and large bonuses for taking benefits away from the workers and/or running the business into the ground. Last place I would look to judge the "quality of life" in this country. The only fool I see around here is you!!

...well, now that you've given us some insight on your opinion of capitalism.....


Here's a suggestion for those on the left, if you're going to ignore everything that is going well just showcase what you can find that can be perceived as going wrong- rather than just pointing out problems, why don't you clarify the what specifically caused that problem, how Bush is responsible, how you would have prevented it, and how it should be solved.

Otherwise, you sound as ignorant as John Kerry saying violence in the Middle East wouldn't happen had he been President.
 

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