Canadian Flu Vaccine

barry2952

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Did I understand correctly that GWB would supplement the Flu vaccine shortage from labs in Canada but we can't, by law, have American made drugs purchased in Canada (at a significantly lower cost)?

Did I also understand that the reason that we couldn't have American drugs puchased in Canada is that they might not be safe because they might have come through a third-world country?

Please explain without the rhetoric. Thank you.
 
I found another view on this subject on AOL.

Importing Less Expensive Drugs Won't Cure U.S. Woes



By EDUARDO PORTER, The New York Times


(Oct. 16) -- A customer at the Concourse Drugs pharmacy in the Bronx will pay about $118 to get a month's supply of 20-milligram Lipitor pills. At PharmacyinCanada.com, a Canadian online outlet, the same quantity of the drug, Pfizer's cholesterol-lowering medication, costs $79.

The difference has become a tempting political target. Senator John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate, has made a campaign pledge to help cut Americans' prescription drug costs by allowing them to import drugs from Canada. President Bush has conceded that the idea is worth a try "if there's a safe way to do it." Bipartisan legislation in Congress would allow the reimportation of prescription drugs from Canada and other industrialized countries.

It may make political sense to point to Canada as a solution to high prescription drug prices in the United States. But many economists and health care experts say that importing drugs from countries that control their prices would do little to solve the problem of expensive drugs in the United States, where companies are free to set their own prices. Even the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office estimated that allowing Canadian drug imports would have a "negligible" impact on drug spending.

To begin with, there are not enough Canadians, or drugs in Canada, to make much of a dent in the United States. There are 16 million American patients on Lipitor, for instance - more than half the entire Canadian population.

Drug makers like Pfizer say they would reduce their shipments of drugs to distributors in Canada and other countries that re-export to the United States. "We are not going to supply drugs to diverters, in Canada or elsewhere," said Hank McKinnell, chairman and chief executive of Pfizer.

And Canadian health officials, fearing shortages and higher prices of their own, would probably clamp down on their own pharmacists and distributors to keep their drugs from leaking into the United States. Canadian patient-advocacy groups have already complained about shortages from the exports to the United States that already occur, even though they violate American law.

Even the most vehement advocates of forcing big drug makers to lower prices in this country say that imports are a rather clumsy tool. "It's a pretty crazy solution to a fairly simple problem," said James Love, director of the Consumer Project on Technology, a group advocating a lowering of drug costs. "Reimportation is not the first thing that would come to my mind."

But what comes to mind for people like Mr. Love is a political nonstarter: imposing Canadian-style price controls. No Democrat or Republican will be likely to dare to propose such a thing during an election year, or perhaps anytime soon, having seen the political debacle of the Clinton administration's effort to devise a national health care system - and knowing that the pharmaceutical industry is one of Washington's most powerful lobbying forces.

Price controls "wouldn't have a ghost of a chance to pass in the Congress," said Senator Byron Dorgan, the Democrat from North Dakota who is the sponsor of the main drug reimportation bill in the Senate.

Because free-market pricing of drugs and other health care still seems to be so politically sacrosanct, the policy proposals tend to tinker around the margins.

"Is it sensible for the United States to have price controls?" asked Jean O. Lanjouw, an economist at the University of California, Berkeley. "It is a real question. But we don't discuss the real questions."

For all the shortcomings, the Kerry campaign argues that drug imports should be given a chance. "If the impact is so negligible, why are the drug companies fighting it so much?" said Sarah Bianchi, Senator Kerry's policy director. Even if the overall bulk of imports were not that large, she added, "they would apply some pressure on the drug industry and make them revisit their pricing policies."

And some of the drug companies' defensive tactics could be barred by law. The Senate legislation, for example, would bar pharmaceutical companies from denying supplies to distributors and pharmacies that export to the United States.

But the measures proposed so far would do little to change the fundamental economics of the drug industry as it exists today. Prescription drugs cost a lot to invent, but once invented cost little to manufacture. That is why patents are granted to drug companies - to prevent other companies from copying their inventions long enough for the inventors to set prices high enough to recover their investment and make a profit. But price controls short-circuit this system.

When Pfizer sells drugs in the United States it sets the price at a level intended to sell the most pills at the highest price the market will bear. In Canada, instead, the provincial and federal governments determine how much the drug maker can charge.

Take Lipitor, which Pfizer makes at a factory in Ireland for distribution to the United States, Canada and other markets. When Pfizer introduced it in 1997, the company priced it below Merck's Zocor, the leading cholesterol treatment at the time, to get Lipitor onto the approved drug lists of the health maintenance organizations that are among this country's biggest buyers.

Now that it is the nation's best-selling drug, the price is 36 percent higher than it was in 1997 - helping Lipitor achieve nearly $10 billion in sales last year.

Currently, Pfizer charges an American wholesaler an average of $2.07 for a 10-milligram pill, and some 15 percent less to an H.M.O. In Canada, by contrast, the health care system run by Ontario's provincial government will reimburse only 1.60 Canadian dollars (about $1.28) for the same pill - the same price as in 1997.

"They hold all the cards," a Pfizer Canada spokeswoman, Teresa Firestone, said of the Canadian government. "Our hands are tied."

Such policies have kept Canada's prescription drug prices 30 to 80 percent cheaper than in the United States.

Because most other industrial countries maintain some kind of price controls on prescription drugs, the United States has a similar drug price gap with the rest of the world. The Congressional Budget Office estimated that average prices for patented drugs in 25 other top industrialized nations were 35 percent to 55 percent lower than in the United States.

But the United States market is hard to compare with any other. It represented more than half of the global drug industry's sales of $410 billion last year and was the country in which drug companies make the bulk of their profits. Whatever one thinks of the pricing disparity, efforts to force down American prices to Canadian or European levels could radically change the economics of the pharmaceutical industry - which effectively depends on United States profits for all of its activities, including a substantial portion of its spending on research and development.

American consumers are "subsidizing everyone's R&D,'' said Mr. Love, the consumer advocate. "We're paying way more than everyone else. Others should pay more.''

In testimony before Congress last May, John Vernon, an economist at the University of Connecticut, estimated that dropping drug prices in the United States to the levels in the rest of the world would cut drug companies' investment in research and development by 25 to 30 percent.

Critics of pharmaceutical companies dispute many of their cost estimates, noting that much research spending is squandered on the development of "me too" drugs that are not truly innovative. They argue that drug companies are spending large sums in marketing to persuade patients to demand expensive new medications even when older, cheaper drugs have the same effect.

That is why the critics say the entire drug industry needs to be shaken up. Maybe the United States should pressure other rich countries to raise the prices of their drugs, so they shoulder a higher share of the global research burden. Or maybe, the critics say, the United States needs to join the rest of the world in setting price controls.

The debate over reimporting drugs from Canada does not address any of those issues. "Reimportation is a false promise,'' said Mr. McKinnell, Pfizer's chief executive. "If we want to import price controls, we should have that discussion. Let's have that debate.''

____________________
Barry
 
That was an informative and interesting article, Barry. Thanks for the post.
 
Agreed, very interesting.

My take: Pharmacutical industry lines our politicians' pockets to keep US prices high, thereby resulting in effectively the US consumers subsidizing other country's R&D costs for new medications. Additionally, the pharmacutical industry has one of the highest profit margins of any industry (read: GREED). It is NOT RIGHT for the laws of this country to favor one industry over another, but it happens all the time, and it is ALWAYS a result of rich lobbyist getting their hands in the lawbooks (this is CORRUPTION). There has GOT to be a better way to balance this system, by price controls that bring US drug prices more in-line with the rest of the world but without breaking the legs of R&D.

Bush want to keep the same-old, same-old because our present system (no US price controls) keeps the $$ rolling into DC politician's pockets from the lobbyists.

Kerry wants to open lines of importation from Canada to help circumvent "the system" that is currently running our pharmicutical market in the US. While this won't cure all that ails us (this plan, as stated in the article, falls way short of supporting the volume of US drug useage, and doesn't address the ripple effects), but at least its a start at addressing a real problem that faces all of us.

Meanwhile GW remains in denial............

His "we have to ensure it's safe"........" I'm here to protect you" lines of BS is nothing but a smokescreen. Drug manufacturing lines, REGARDLESS of where on this planet they are located, are sending the SAME stuff to Canada that they send here to the US. The ONLY DIFFERENCE is the price once they reach the shelves. So exactly how does a drug, that is available off the shelf in the US become "unsafe" once it travels north of our boarder? Pure and utter GW-BS.
 
Nice spin-job, Johnny, on an objective article.
Enjoy
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At least he wrote something more than just posting his favorite comment, the 'ol :bsflag: flag. We're making progress.
 
Kbob said:
Nice spin-job, Johnny, on an objective article.
Enjoy
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Hey, just trying to lay things out the way I see them without being influenced by some pharmacutical company's spokesperson. Objective? Only if you ignore the statements made by Pfizer.

Bryan, hey I was running late for a meeting......... I was actually looking for the puking smiley, but the BSflag was all I could find in a hurry that came close.
 
I guess my new goal in life will be to get you to use the :iconcur: :I smileys in response to some of my posts.

Or am I setting my sights a little too high?
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MonsterMark said:
I guess my new goal in life will be to get you to use the :iconcur: :I smileys in response to some of my posts.

Or am I setting my sights a little too high?
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It'd work better if your sights were set a little less to the right. :Beer
 
JohnnyBz00LS said:
... Drug manufacturing lines, REGARDLESS of where on this planet they are located, are sending the SAME stuff to Canada that they send here to the US. The ONLY DIFFERENCE is the price once they reach the shelves. ...

So who said importing from Canada would be cheaper? I don't get it. What you just said is precisely why it won't work.

What's that you say? We need to negotiate with the drug companies? Go ahead. LOL! You can't beat them over the head with lawsuits, regulate them into the stratosphere, then ask them to meet you at the table for 'negotiations'. Don't forget they already have huge negotiations with insurance companies.

Regardless what your opinion of the company, they are in the business to make money. They are also in a business where tens or hundreds or losers are spawned for just one winner.

There are no easy answers.
 
First, Canada, with 1/8 the US population cannot support the demand for drugs we currently have.

Canada gets a lower price because America subsidizes that pricing thru higher US prices. Don't like that, tell Canada to change their price controls.

Drugs are the highest risk of all businesses to be in and with risk comes the high return of reward. They go hand in hand. Higher risk, higher reward. Can anybody here show me the costs associated with trying to develope a new drug, how long it takes, and the actual chances of success?

That is why these drug companies try to defend their patents so vigorously. Unless the government wants to take over the development of drugs, you have to let the market forces determine the price. As an investor, if I invest my money, I expect a larger return on that investment if the investment is riskier, and drug companies are some of the riskiest investments a person can make.

The Canadian import plan is flawed in so many ways their is no way I can cover all the problems with that idea.

Start by reforming the tort laws in this country first instead of relying on a far-fletched plan to get them from somewhere else.
 
driller said:
So who said importing from Canada would be cheaper? I don't get it. What you just said is precisely why it won't work.

What's that you say? We need to negotiate with the drug companies? Go ahead. LOL! You can't beat them over the head with lawsuits, regulate them into the stratosphere, then ask them to meet you at the table for 'negotiations'. Don't forget they already have huge negotiations with insurance companies.

You completely missed my point, during the debates (did you watch them??), GW stated that he was against importing drugs from Canada because he wasn't sure that they were safe, stating that some of the drugs might come from FOREIGN COUNTRIES (another typical GOP SCARE tactic IMO), and therefore might be contaminated. "My job is to protect you!" :bsflag: is what I say. Drug manufacturing lines, REGARDLESS of where on this planet they are located, are sending the SAME stuff to Canada that they send here to the US. The ONLY DIFFERENCE is the price once they reach the shelves. So explain to me how the same drug, the spills out of the same factory and is nearly hermetically sealed at the factory, becomes "contaminated" if it is shipped to Canada instead of the US??? Is GW accusing the Canadian phamacists of lacing drugs that are sent to the US?? Now THAT is another good example of GW's skills of winning friends and influencing people.

Don't preach to me about how the drug companies and working so hard. They spend more time & $$ on developing "me-too" drugs than the real miracle cures. Why? To expand their market and increase profits. IMO, the drug companies are among the most crookedest industries in the US. They market their crap so intensely, preying off people's insecurities by creating new "afflictions" that NEED to be cured by their product ("abnormal social axiety......... my ASS, that ain't nothin' that can't be cured by a couple of cold Budweisers). Their goal in life is to get every US citizen addicted to their product. And to make matters worse, there are no laws on age limits like the tobacco industry had that limits WHO they can sell / market their stuff to. Look at the Ritalin crisis that has occurred in our youth / schools over the last several years. NOW the FDA is finally discovering that some of these antidepresants are increasing suicide rates amoung our youth? HOW THE F$$K DID THAT HAPPEN? Don't tell me there isn't drug lobbying $$ lining the pockets of the FDA.

I have a 14 y/o autistic son who is non-verbal. He has struggled w/ containing his agressive behavior towards others, pinching & biting his teachers many times. Over the years the "expert doctors" have put him on various drugs to "mellow him out", Risperdahl was the latest, and best working of them all (Mellarill was tried in the past, as was another that I can't remember it's name). However, his agressive behavior continued to increase as he aged, despite gradual increases in dosage to account for his body weight. 3 yrs ago, against the doctor's advice, we took him off Risperdahl alltogether. And you know what happened? He mellowed out on his own! Subsequently we put him on a gluten / casen-free diet (again, against the advice of his "free drug sample-influenced" doctors) and he has mellowed further, with absolutely NO agressive behavior for over the last 1-1/2 years!

The facts are, doctors push the drugs to get the kick-backs. The FDA and the US Medical Association (or what ever it's called) are in cahoots w/ the drug companies. As a result, we will see the same thing happen that occured to the tobacco companies. They will use their political lobbying power to influence laws that allow them to run amok and market their crap freely to an unsuspecting, brainwashed US public.
 
I must add that while Kerry's plan of importing drugs from Canada may only be a drop in the bucket to addressing this issue, GW's complete denial and use of scare tactics as a LAME EXCUSE for not doing anything about it makes me want to puke.

Typical of GW and the GOP, dodge issues, blame others, pass the buck.

BTW KBob, you can keep your RED kool-aid, I prefer mine BLUE. :rolleyes:

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I did watch the debate and Bush was asked why he blocked the reimportation of drugs from Canada. His answer was "I haven't yet". He explained that the FDA was in the process of approving the reimportation of drugs from Canada if it can be done safely. I acknowledge the rest of your argument, Johnny, and sympathize with your situation. I'm sure you'll say that it will never be approved etc. etc., but I'm just pointing out that GW didn't say he was against importing anything if it's safe.
 
JohnnyBz00LS said:
Typical of GW and the GOP, dodge issues, blame others, pass the buck.

BTW KBob, you can keep your RED kool-aid, I prefer mine BLUE. :rolleyes:
Wow, you'll actually pick your poison, huh? Drink up then, especially if you believe the tactics you complained about are unique to the GOP and Bush (like Kerry and the Dem's are any different, LOL!!!)
 
Kbob said:
I did watch the debate and Bush was asked why he blocked the reimportation of drugs from Canada. His answer was "I haven't yet". He explained that the FDA was in the process of approving the reimportation of drugs from Canada if it can be done safely. I acknowledge the rest of your argument, Johnny, and sympathize with your situation. I'm sure you'll say that it will never be approved etc. etc., but I'm just pointing out that GW didn't say he was against importing anything if it's safe.

My counterpoint here would be GW & the FDA are dragging their feet for no valid reason. "If it can be done safely" is a cop-out.
 
That was my original point exactly. GWB and the Republican majority have had 4 years to address this issue but no mention of it was ever made by GWB until JFK answered a legitimate question in the debate.
 
BTW, Johnny I did watch the debates.

If you think REIMPORTATION of drugs is the cure to the high costs, I will not be able to tell you the word implies they originated here, were exported to Canada under price negotiations, and are now sought to be REIMPORTED at a lower price. Take that and chew on it and then spit it out with your Bush-hating bias view.

Their goal in life is to get every US citizen addicted to their product.

The facts are, doctors push the drugs to get the kick-backs.

They will use their political lobbying power to influence laws that allow them to run amok and market their crap freely to an unsuspecting, brainwashed US public.

Such banter is the riduculous to merit with an intelligent response.

It was painfully obvious the President wasn't prepared for such a question. The simple truth is he was trying to do a political balancing act. The man realizes you cannot milk the cow dry and then complain when there's no cheese! The simple fact is if the government stepped in and artificially 'fixed' prices, the result would be extremely short term as the few manufacturers of such products would simply be forced out of business.

So go ahead and raise the :bsflag: flag. Go ahead and kick and scream, whine and cry, and be sure to blame the government, the doctors and all the corporations on your way to your socialist nirvana. Don't assume you have a choice. Don't assume you have any personal responsibilty. Don't assume you can do better. After all, you're brainwashed and were caught unsuspected, so it's not your fault. I'm sure Stalin, Kruschev and Castro would never have dodge issues, blamed others, or passed the buck. argue2
 
????

Apparently your definition of "reimportation" flew under GW's radar as well, as HE was the one who stated the possibility of drugs from Canada actually originating in some other "foreign country". I was giving GW the benefit of the doubt that he might actually know something about what he was talking about. If the "reimportation" of drugs from Canada literally means (as the word sharply implies.... duh) sending back drugs that originated here in the US, then GW is still full of even more BS for implying that they might not be safe, taking the wind out of the sails of his argument for the FDA dragging their feet. WHICH IS IT??

Regardless of the answer, as I've stated in my earlier post, "reimportation of drugs from Canada" is in reality only a drop in the bucket to addressing the issue. However, GW is even on board with this plan based on his answer during the debates! The difference between GW and JFK on this issue is that one guy is ready to do something now, while the other guy spews lame excuses for not having already done the SAME "something". When you put those two views on the scales, things tilt to Kerry's favor. Are you so blinded by the RED kool-aid that you can't understand that?
 
First, I don't like RED kool-aid. :N

Secondly, I would surmise the drug inspection routine for Canada to be much more lax than that of the US FDA. Given that, I can see why there could be a legitimate concern for safety.

Thirdly, the FDA(or most government bureaucracies for that matter), have no particular political allegiance and if anything they WILL be dragging their feet.

Lastly, I propose that when you say GW is full of it because of a lame answer, I would bet his real thoughts would be political suicide if expressed. This is what I meant by a political balancing act. I may not agree, but it's a fact of life. He cannot express the reality in a way that would not distress one voting block or another, especially in such a forum as a nationally televised debate. Hence the redirection and seemingly weak response.

Only well-seasoned veterans of the political arena such as Clinton and Kerry can take an inadequate response to a strainful question and present it in a way that makes you feel good. Sometimes, they do it so well, you're in the car on the way home when you ask yourself, "What did he just say?". :bash:
 
And I bet Johnny runs out and buys the $1.25 Viagara that was spammed on his computer and thinks he got the real deal too.
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Somebody needs to explain the dangers associated with counterfeiting, especially when it comes to drugs. That is what Bush was talking about. Getting the real deal is what it is all about. Ever hear the saying --- you get what you pay for?

You want a purple pill, give some a Rolaids and some food coloring and I'll give you a purple pill.
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Eyes got to admits. It's pretty fun watching you guys flail away.
 
driller said:
Secondly, I would surmise the drug inspection routine for Canada to be much more lax than that of the US FDA. Given that, I can see why there could be a legitimate concern for safety.

So now you are back-pedaling on your "reimportation" definition? Whatever.

driller said:
Thirdly, the FDA(or most government bureaucracies for that matter), have no particular political allegiance and if anything they WILL be dragging their feet.

The FDA is another arm of the Govt., equally susceptable to lobbying influence.

driller said:
Lastly, I propose that when you say GW is full of it because of a lame answer, I would bet his real thoughts would be political suicide if expressed. This is what I meant by a political balancing act. I may not agree, but it's a fact of life. He cannot express the reality in a way that would not distress one voting block or another, especially in such a forum as a nationally televised debate. Hence the redirection and seemingly weak response.

:iconcur: because this has been typical GW tactics used for the last 4 years. Tell us only what we WANT to hear, NOT what his plans really are.
 
MonsterMark said:
And I bet Johnny runs out and buys the $1.25 Viagara that was spammed on his computer and thinks he got the real deal too.
icon12.gif


Somebody needs to explain the dangers associated with counterfeiting, especially when it comes to drugs. That is what Bush was talking about. Getting the real deal is what it is all about. Ever hear the saying --- you get what you pay for?

Anybody buying stuff from a spam email is asking for it, I have no sympathy for those. But that is not what they were taking about during the debates. The issue is getting prescriptions filled by crossing the boarder, going to a pharmicist, having your prescription filled w/ the same drugs manufactured by the same factory as what is available in the US but at a lower price, and bringing those drugs back to the US across the boarder. I believe that is technically illegal, and if not, can only be done in a practical sense by folks who live near the boarder of Canada (or Mexico). Counterfeit drugs are only an issue w/ illegal prescription filling done via the internet by unscrupulous "cyber-pharmicists".
 

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