College education declines in value

04SCTLS

Dedicated LVC Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
3,188
Reaction score
7
Location
Lockport
More Educators Argue for Forgetting College

Plan B: Skip College
16steinberg_CA0-articleLarge.jpg
Christopher Furlong/Getty Images
GRADUATING Not everyone does.

By JACQUES STEINBERG

Published: May 14, 2010
WHAT’S the key to success in the United States?
Short of becoming a reality TV star, the answer is rote and, some would argue, rather knee-jerk: Earn a college degree.

The idea that four years of higher education will translate into a better job, higher earnings and a happier life — a refrain sure to be repeated this month at graduation ceremonies across the country — has been pounded into the heads of schoolchildren, parents and educators. But there’s an underside to that conventional wisdom. Perhaps no more than half of those who began a four-year bachelor’s degree program in the fall of 2006 will get that degree within six years, according to the latest projections from the Department of Education. (The figures don’t include transfer students, who aren’t tracked.)

For college students who ranked among the bottom quarter of their high school classes, the numbers are even more stark: 80 percent will probably never get a bachelor’s degree or even a two-year associate’s degree.
That can be a lot of tuition to pay, without a degree to show for it.
A small but influential group of economists and educators is pushing another pathway: for some students, no college at all. It’s time, they say, to develop credible alternatives for students unlikely to be successful pursuing a higher degree, or who may not be ready to do so.

Whether everyone in college needs to be there is not a new question; the subject has been hashed out in books and dissertations for years. But the economic crisis has sharpened that focus, as financially struggling states cut aid to higher education.

Among those calling for such alternatives are the economists Richard K. Vedder of Ohio University and Robert I. Lerman of American University, the political scientist Charles Murray, and James E. Rosenbaum, an education professor at Northwestern. They would steer some students toward intensive, short-term vocational and career training, through expanded high school programs and corporate apprenticeships.

“It is true that we need more nanosurgeons than we did 10 to 15 years ago,” said Professor Vedder, founder of the Center for College Affordability and Productivity, a research nonprofit in Washington. “But the numbers are still relatively small compared to the numbers of nurses’ aides we’re going to need. We will need hundreds of thousands of them over the next decade.”
And much of their training, he added, might be feasible outside the college setting.
College degrees are simply not necessary for many jobs. Of the 30 jobs projected to grow at the fastest rate over the next decade in the United States, only seven typically require a bachelor’s degree, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Among the top 10 growing job categories, two require college degrees: accounting (a bachelor’s) and postsecondary teachers (a doctorate). But this growth is expected to be dwarfed by the need for registered nurses, home health aides, customer service representatives and store clerks. None of those jobs require a bachelor’s degree.
Professor Vedder likes to ask why 15 percent of mail carriers have bachelor’s degrees, according to a 1999 federal study.
“Some of them could have bought a house for what they spent on their education,” he said.
Professor Lerman, the American University economist, said some high school graduates would be better served by being taught how to behave and communicate in the workplace.
Such skills are ranked among the most desired — even ahead of educational attainment — in many surveys of employers. In one 2008 survey of more than 2,000 businesses in Washington State, employers said entry-level workers appeared to be most deficient in being able to “solve problems and make decisions,” “resolve conflict and negotiate,” “cooperate with others” and “listen actively.”

Yet despite the need, vocational programs, which might teach such skills, have been one casualty in the push for national education standards, which has been focused on preparing students for college.
While some educators propose a radical renovation of the community college system to teach work readiness, Professor Lerman advocates a significant national investment by government and employers in on-the-job apprenticeship training. He spoke with admiration, for example, about a program in the CVS pharmacy chain in which aspiring pharmacists’ assistants work as apprentices in hundreds of stores, with many going on to study to become full-fledged pharmacists themselves.

The health field is an obvious case where the manpower situation is less than ideal,” he said. “I would try to work with some of the major employers to develop these kinds of programs to yield mastery in jobs that do demand high expertise.”

While no country has a perfect model for such programs, Professor Lerman pointed to a modest study of a German effort done last summer by an intern from that country. She found that of those who passed the Abitur, the exam that allows some Germans to attend college for almost no tuition, 40 percent chose to go into apprenticeships in trades, accounting, sales management, and computers.

“Some of the people coming out of those apprenticeships are in more demand than college graduates,” he said, “because they’ve actually managed things in the workplace.”

Still, by urging that some students be directed away from four-year colleges, academics like Professor Lerman are touching a third rail of the education system. At the very least, they could be accused of lowering expectations for some students. Some critics go further, suggesting that the approach amounts to educational redlining, since many of the students who drop out of college are black or non-white Hispanics.

Peggy Williams, a counselor at a high school in suburban New York City with a student body that is mostly black or Hispanic, understands the argument for erring on the side of pushing more students toward college.
“If we’re telling kids, ‘You can’t cut the mustard, you shouldn’t go to college or university,’ then we’re shortchanging them from experiencing an environment in which they might grow,” she said.

But Ms. Williams said she would be more willing to counsel some students away from the precollege track if her school, Mount Vernon High School, had a better vocational education alternative. Over the last decade, she said, courses in culinary arts, nursing, dentistry and heating and ventilation system repair were eliminated. Perhaps 1 percent of this year’s graduates will complete a concentration in vocational courses, she said, compared with 40 percent a decade ago.

There is another rejoinder to the case against college: People with college and graduate degrees generally earn more than those without them, and face lower risks of unemployment, according to figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Even those who experience a few years of college earn more money, on average, with less risk of unemployment, than those who merely graduate from high school, said Morton Schapiro, an economist who is the president of Northwestern University.

“You get some return even if you don’t get the sheepskin,” Mr. Schapiro said.
He warned against overlooking the intangible benefits of a college experience — even an incomplete experience — for those who might not apply what they learned directly to their chosen work.
“It’s not just about the economic return,” he said. “Some college, whether you complete it or not, contributes to aesthetic appreciation, better health and better voting behavior.”

Nonetheless, Professor Rosenbaum said, high school counselors and teachers are not doing enough to alert students unlikely to earn a college degree to the perilous road ahead.
“I’m not saying don’t get the B.A,” he said. “I’m saying, let’s get them some intervening credentials, some intervening milestones. Then, if they want to go further in their education, they can.”

_______________________________________________________________

How to communicate is voted the number 1 skill by employers.
New workers appeared to be most deficient in being able to “solve problems and make decisions,” “resolve conflict and negotiate,” “cooperate with others” and “listen actively.”


Seems we have some of the most educated mail carriers in the world.LOL!

Must be a let down taking a joe job because no one is impressed by or has use for your education credentials.

My aunt spent 20 years in higher education only to become a librarian.
Bypassing college is a good idea for many people.

A BS is bs for many people.
 
Bar Raised for Law-Grad Jobs

Employment Prospects Dim as Firms Retrench, Derailing Career Paths for Many

By NATHAN KOPPEL

Fabian Ronisky thought he was on track last summer to become a high-powered corporate lawyer. He was an intern at a leading firm in Los Angeles, earning about $3,000 weekly. But the firm didn't offer him a permanent job.

So Mr. Ronisky, a 25-year-old student at Chicago's Northwestern University School of Law, spent the fall sending 50 resumes to law firms and government agencies, to no avail. Now, just days shy of graduation and with $150,000 of student loans, he plans to move back to his parents' home in San Diego and sell music and movies online.
"I wanted to use my education," he said. "But times change."
Mr. Ronisky is one of about 40,000 law-school students who will graduate this spring and enter one of the worst job markets for attorneys in decades. This year's classes have it particularly bad, according to lawyers and industry experts. Though hiring was down last year as well, they said 2009 graduates applied for jobs before law firms had felt the full brunt of the downturn.
The situation is so bleak that some students and industry experts are rethinking the value of a law degree, long considered a ticket to financial security. If students performed well, particularly at top-tier law schools, they could count on jobs at corporate firms where annual pay starts as high as $160,000 and can top out well north of $1 million. While plenty of graduates are still set to embark on that career path, many others have had their dreams upended.
Part of the problem is supply and demand. Law-school enrollment has held steady in recent years while law firms, judges, the government and other employers have drastically cut hiring in the economic downturn.
Large corporate law firms have been hit particularly hard. The nation's 100 highest-grossing corporate firms last year reported an average revenue decline of 3.4%, the first overall drop in more than 20 years, according to the May issue of The American Lawyer magazine.

Morrison & Foerster LLP, a 1,000-lawyer San Francisco-based firm, hired about 30% fewer graduates this year than in the prior year. "It would not surprise me if all firms cut back on hiring law graduates for a couple of years," said Keith Wetmore, its chairman. Saul Ewing LLP, a 250-lawyer Philadelphia firm, cut hiring of law graduates this year by about two-thirds.
NA-BF821_LAWGRA_NS_20100505195216.gif



Law firms of all sizes have suffered as clients have curbed work on real-estate acquisitions, mergers, public offerings and other staples of corporate practice. They have had to fire lawyers, reduce hiring and defer the start dates of the law graduates who did receive job offers.
Many 2009 law graduates who were offered jobs just started work this year. And many graduates hired in 2010 won't start until 2011. So even when the economy picks up, firms would first have to absorb their backlog of recent hires.
It is too early to get a comprehensive view of the employment rate for the 2010 class, but there are plenty of troubling indicators.
Law firms had an average of 16 summer internship positions to offer this year, about half the number of the previous year, according to a March report by the National Association for Law Placement Inc.
Employers last year offered 69% of summer interns a full-time job, down from about 90% in the previous five years.
The University of Texas School of Law, long regarded as among the nation's top 20, estimates the employment rate for 2010 graduates is down about 10% to 15% from last year.
"I've been at this for 23 years, and this is the worst job market I've ever seen," said Karen Klouda, head of career services at the University of Iowa College of Law.
Those considering law school might want to reconsider, said Allan Tanenbaum, chairman of an American Bar Association commission studying the impact of the economic crisis on the profession. Students take on average law-school debt of about $100,000 and, given the job market, many "have no foreseeable way to pay that back," he said.
Thomas Reddy, a second-year student at Brooklyn Law School, hasn't landed a summer internship yet after sending resumes to more than 50 law firms. He is taking on about $70,000 of debt each year of the three-year program to earn his degree, but said he may be fortunate to make $80,000 a year in a lawyer job after graduating. "That is less than what I was making before I went to law school," he said.
Many graduating students remained optimistic and determined to find legal jobs, according to interviews with students and career counselors. And many have secured good positions.
But it is bad form on campuses to bask in one's success, said Sue Landsittel, a Northwestern law student who will clerk at the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Seattle and join a top corporate firm after that. "You want to celebrate your own good fortune, but you have to remember it's a delicate issue."

_______________________________________________________________

Soon these people will be applying for those postie jobs.:rolleyes:
We have 4% of the world's population and 50% of the lawyers.
Surely they can find something better to do while we cry crocodile tears.
 
College is a waste of money UNLESS you are a studying a very specific specialized field that has market value.

Most people would be far better served to learn a trade.

Far too many people are now starting out their lives tens of thousands of dollars in debt with a worthless degree.
 
college is a waste of money unless you are a studying a very specific specialized field that has market value.

Most people would be far better served to learn a trade.

Far too many people are now starting out their lives tens of thousands of dollars in debt with a worthless degree.

+1
 
If one thinks of education purely as a path to a secure job, the above is, quite possibly, right.

If one thinks of education as a foundation for a well-rounded person, properly able to function in society, there is no such thing as enough education.
KS
 
College is a waste of money UNLESS you are a studying a very specific specialized field that has market value.

Most people would be far better served to learn a trade.

Far too many people are now starting out their lives tens of thousands of dollars in debt with a worthless degree.

Like mine good buddy :-D
hehe glad I got a skill that can be bartered with :p

my current debt is only 22k, lets see if I can lower it :-D
 
College is a waste of money UNLESS you are a studying a very specific specialized field that has market value.

Yup! This is exactly what I'll be doing in August. Learning a specific field for a specific job is way more interesting (IMO) and is more of a motivator.
 
If one thinks of education purely as a path to a secure job, the above is, quite possibly, right.

If one thinks of education as a foundation for a well-rounded person, properly able to function in society, there is no such thing as enough education.
KS

I agree, so go get a library card.

College doesn't make you any more "well rounded" or better able to function in society than having a real job. In fact, many times, it just prolongs adolescence.

And I'm not even in the mood to discuss the indoctrination that goes on.
 
Education

I agree, so go get a library card.

College doesn't make you any more "well rounded" or better able to function in society than having a real job. In fact, many times, it just prolongs adolescence.

And I'm not even in the mood to discuss the indoctrination that goes on.

A library card is, obviously, a necessary part of becoming educated. And so is knowing where new and used bookstores are to be found. And listening, both to the pundits on Fox and the idiots on MSNBC. But guidance as to what to study, and how to approach it, is also a large part of the equation. As to your other points, it is, as in many things, necessary to evaluate where you go for guidance, just as you'd evaluate the other parts of a proposed curriculum. 'Don't go to a tech school to study medieval literature'.

The college where I took my undergrad degrees was, although a 'liberal arts'-oriented place, remarkably devoid of any enforced liberality. They had no problem, for instance, with my having a number of my guns in the dorm during my first couple of years there. The campus cop, moonlighting from the municipal force, regularly stopped in to gass about pistols and gun collecting in general.

My youngest kid has almost finished her undergrad requirements there. Although I always carry, I am still, after all these years, welcome on the campus when I visit.

My daughter's streak of liberality comes from her age, not from her studies. She'll learn a proper degree of conservatism as she gets a little older.

I only used my degrees to garner a paycheck for about the first two years after I graduated. Then I went out for myself. I don't use my education to extract pay from some all-powerful corporation. But I'd be ill-equipped to function as I do if it were not for the time I've spent in classrooms. I don't regret a minute of it. And I paid for it as I went.

Although, from my observations, we are largely in agreement on a variety of topics, you obviously have some axe to grind on this subject. What's shaped your attitude?
KS
 
Shag is probably a legal scholar soon to graduate.
Maybe he should weigh in on this one.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Back
Top