Dear GOP: Please Choose Liberty

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Dear GOP: Please Choose Liberty
How Republicans can resolve their existential crisis

Shikha Dalmia | May 25, 2009

If Pennsylvania Senator Arlen Specter's defection to the Democratic side of the aisle affected only the fortunes of the Republican Party, it would be no cause for concern for non-Republicans like me. But America's democratic scheme depends on a robust opposition to check the government's tendency to grow—especially now that the White House is occupied by Barack Lyndon Roosevelt. Yet Republicans are as far from serving that role as the Detroit Lions are from winning the Super Bowl.

So what should the Grand Old Party do to resurrect itself enough to mount some semblance of resistance to the advancing Democratic juggernaut? The answer is that it needs intellectual coherence around a powerful idea, and that idea should be liberty. This is a principle that is both strong enough to intellectually moor the party in the way that those who want a "purer" GOP desire—and grand enough to appeal to a broad swath of the population, as those who advocate a more Big Tent approach recommend.

This would be the exact opposite of what Bush did. He, remarkably enough, managed to combine every anti-individual liberty idea from the right with every pro-big government policy from the left. From the right, Bush acquired: a super-hawkish foreign policy; contempt for civil liberties; and religiously informed positions on gay marriage, abortion and end-of-life issues. And from the left he got: high-spending ways, including the massive drug entitlement for seniors; expansive ideas about the federal government's role in education policy; and the chutzpah, just before leaving, to engineer a massive government bailout of banks and auto companies.

Since the utter rout of the Bush agenda last November, the only Republican who has made the case for liberty is Sen. Jim DeMint of South Carolina. In a recent Wall Street Journal op-ed, he argued that the GOP should concentrate on returning the federal government to its core functions, not imposing its moral views on everyone. But this is hard to take seriously from a man who voted not once but twice for a constitutional amendment overriding the power of states to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, demonstrating that for all his brave talk about freedom and federalism, he is not completely serious about either.

But what should Republicans do to reclaim the mantle of freedom?

They could begin, first and foremost, by showing some embarrassment with the label "conservative." Democrats have been embarrassed with the term "liberal" ever since it became synonymous with tax-and-spend in the public mind. Interestingly, even Obama, who is nothing if not a tax-and-spend liberal and then some, has shunned the label.

In fact, F. A. Hayek, the Nobel Prize-winning economist who did more than anyone in the 20th Century to fight socialism and revive the cause of liberty, urged conservatives nearly half a century ago in his essay, "Why I Am Not a Conservative," to find another name—one that emphasizes liberty—to describe themselves. There is an inherent tension between conservatism and liberty, he pointed out, which in a "conservative" party can't reliably be resolved in favor of liberty.

Conservatives of course dismiss this tension. America's institutions are built on principles of liberty, they claim, therefore defending them means defending liberty. But labels shape self-understanding—and the term conservatism shifts the emphasis from defending America because it is the land of liberty to defending liberty because it is American.

This has profound consequences for the conservative psyche, putting it fundamentally at odds with liberty whenever it threatens the conservative conception of America. It is not a coincidence that nativists who hyperventilate about immigration's effect on American language and attitudes, isolationists who fear that trade agreements will dissolve American sovereignty, culture warriors who regard gay marriage and evolution as a mortal threat to American values, and technological Luddites who rail against advances in bioengineering because they tamper with their idea of nature have all found a comfortable home within the conservative party. It is hard to imagine, say, the Freedom Party becoming a ready forum for such ideas.

But to truly become the party of liberty, conservatives have to accept liberty not just in name but also in attitude. They can't be the party of liberty if they reject the consequences of liberty. This means they have to internalize the notion that leaving individuals free to incrementally revise existing institutions in response to shifting human needs adds to—not subtracts from—the overall social well-being. To put it in economics terms, liberty produces positive—not negative—externalities. It doesn't destroy existing culture, community, and country, but rather produces what Hayek called "spontaneous order," which, without bloodshed, allows the old and decrepit ways to be replaced by new and better ones. In short, they have to unabashedly welcome progress and finally purge the ghost of William F. Buckley, who keeps telling them to "stand athwart history and cry stop."

Admittedly, adopting a posture of liberty won't resolve every internal disagreement within the GOP. But it will cause it to rethink its policy agenda—abandoning many existing issues and adopting new ones. It will certainly mean that Republicans will have to stiffen their resolve to fight the frightening advance of the nanny and regulatory state under one-party rule in Washington.

But the recognition that a free people can't be constrained in whom they hire, marry or engage in commerce with (barring of course some security or public health issue) will also give them ammunition to become passionate defenders of open trade and immigration, and thereby distinguish themselves from Democrats. A commitment to liberty won't settle the abortion debate because even people who are pro-choice (like me) have to acknowledge that there is no easy answer as to when individuals become entitled to rights. But it will settle many end-of-life and other social issues where only an individual's own life is at stake. Nor will committing to liberty yield clear principles to gauge the best course of action on the various foreign policy challenges of our times—but it will make the loss of civil liberties that inevitably follows overseas adventurism a central part of the discussion.

The 19th century French philosopher Alexis de Tocqueville pointed out that there are essentially two grand themes around which political life can be organized in America: equality and liberty. Democrats already have a lock on the first and so, unless Republicans want to once again become tax collectors for the welfare state, as they were from 1933 to 1980, they will have to offer something radically different.

Shikha Dalmia is a senior analyst at Reason Foundation. She writes a bi-weekly column for Forbes.com, where this article first appeared.
 
This is the kind of thinking I can get behind. As I have asked, repeatedly, in the past what the GOP intends to do in preparation for 2010 and beyond, this article is the closest thing to a real, workable answer that I have gotten in return. Dalmia has, if nothing else, gotten the right idea for what needs to happen and, while I think the ideas outlined do not go far enough, I am glad to see someone asking the right questions.

Good find, Cal.
 
Cal - can the republican party really learn to embrace pro choice, gay marriage, assisted suicide, and open civil liberties?

That is what a party that embraces liberty will do - as Dalmia points out.

If they could do that - I would even look twice. Because in the recent past we have had the liberty constrictions of Bush/Republicianism along with Republican labeled big spending. It has become a choice of - two bads (no personal liberty and big spending - the Republicans) or one not-so-bad and one bad (more personal liberties than the current Republicans believe in allowing and still big spending - the Democrats).

I personally don't think the Republicans can embrace the four items above and really give us a party of liberty. And it has been a long time since Republicans have shown me that they aren't as willing to spend just as much as the Democrats.
 
It has nothing to do with "embracing" any of those things....
 
But the recognition that a free people can't be constrained in whom they hire, marry or engage in commerce with (barring of course some security or public health issue) will also give them ammunition to become passionate defenders of open trade and immigration, and thereby distinguish themselves from Democrats. A commitment to liberty won't settle the abortion debate because even people who are pro-choice (like me) have to acknowledge that there is no easy answer as to when individuals become entitled to rights. But it will settle many end-of-life and other social issues where only an individual's own life is at stake. Nor will committing to liberty yield clear principles to gauge the best course of action on the various foreign policy challenges of our times—but it will make the loss of civil liberties that inevitably follows overseas adventurism a central part of the discussion.

Than what is that paragraph (the 10th paragraph from Dalmia's article) about if it isn't about really embracing liberty, and the items I mentioned Cal?
 
Cal - can the republican party really learn to embrace pro choice, gay marriage, assisted suicide, and open civil liberties?

You don't need to embrace those to be the party of liberty, as laid out in the Constitution. You simply need to avoid any action in those areas short of public approval of the action through an amendment. When have republicans at the federal level supported any ban on abortion or gay marriage that wasn't through the amendment process.

The "pro-choice" thing is not a "victory for liberty" as you characterize it, but a slap in the face of liberty and a victory for judicial activism. The ultimate victory for liberty would be a constitutional amendment one way or the other on the issue of abortion which would basically give the populace the ability to decide those issue.

The gay marriage thing is the same way, and the "assisted suicide" thing is already in violation of the Constitution due to a Constitutional obligation to protect the "right to life".

concerns for equality or liberty need to comport with the Constitution.
 
Than what is that paragraph (the 10th paragraph from Dalmia's article) about if it isn't about really embracing liberty, and the items I mentioned Cal?

Again, embracing liberty has nothing do with embracing certain behavior.
It has to do with government, and specifically the federal government, not being involved in it.

For example:
Gay marriage ceases to be a national issue if government gets out of the business of marriage, and more specifically, stops attempting to influence behavior through the tax policy.

And on that subject, we should have a tax policy that is uniformly applied and doesn't seek to influence behavior or pick winners and losers in the society.

Merely embracing the constitution and the principles of federalism as they were written and NOT how progressives want them to evolve would be "liberty."
 
Again, embracing liberty has nothing do with embracing certain behavior.
It has to do with government, and specifically the federal government, not being involved in it.

For example:
Gay marriage ceases to be a national issue if government gets out of the business of marriage, and more specifically, stops attempting to influence behavior through the tax policy.

Ok, so if liberty doesn't necessarily mean embracing certain behavior, rather simply staying out of it, then was GW embracing liberty when he called for a ban on gay marriage?

That's a pretty clear and epic failure to embrace liberty. I agree, they don't need to go around endorsing gay marriage to further liberty, but I think not banning something is an indication that liberty is alive and well.
 
So, the republican party can't even walk away from decrying gay marriage, abortion, assisted suicide and open civil liberties. If they can't do that - then they really have no hope in the 2010 election. They are so out of touch with America it is scary. I hate the one party system.... and I am a member of the one.

Cal, do you really think that the Republican party will abandon the gay marriage issue - and go for civil unions? No way.

Do you think they will ever understand that burning the flag is an open civil liberty - hahahahahaha.

Do you think they will allow their constituents to change the face of the abortion issue, pushing for an unpassable amendment, rather than how they currently attack - working through more easily achieved legislative law?

Have you been watching the Republican assault on the assisted suicide law in Oregon?

The Republicans will run the next election on economics, but will lose on civil liberties, because, once again, they will fail to read the pulse of America.
 
So, the republican party can't even walk away from decrying gay marriage, abortion, assisted suicide and open civil liberties. If they can't do that - then they really have no hope in the 2010 election. They are so out of touch with America it is scary.

Ahh, most of America is against gay marriage. Most are, supposedly, against abortion in recent polls and assisted suicide is unconstitutional. Liberties have limits and don't trump rule of law.

Do you think they will ever understand that burning the flag is an open civil liberty - hahahahahaha.

Scalia voted to allow the burning of the flag.

Your whole idea of "open civil liberties" seems to be an attempt to place liberties as absolute, an end unto themselves and above the rule of law.

Do you think they will allow their constituents to change the face of the abortion issue, pushing for an unpassable amendment, rather than how they currently attack - working through more easily achieved legislative law?

What legislative law specifically? And even legislative law is better then judicial fiat, which is the only way any pro-choice victory is achieved. Democracy, or representative democracy is always more pro-liberty then totalitarianism.

Also, it takes a quite a lot to get an Amendment process started. When has there been enough conservatives to get that process started? Not in my lifetime.

Have you been watching the Republican assault on the assisted suicide law in Oregon?

Apparently the rule of law be damned, according to you. :rolleyes:

The Republicans will run the next election on economics, but will lose on civil liberties, because, once again, they will fail to read the pulse of America.

Pop culture and the MSM do not determine the "pulse of America". And economics, unless there is a massive recovery before 2010, will be the major issue of 2010 (unless there is a major attack by terrorists here, again).

You are missing a very important distinction; most conservatives are not looking to impose their will on society and take away liberties. They want to use the system as it was intended to and, on the big issues, use the amendment process. Bush (a quazi-conservative, at best) proposed an amendment on Gay marriage. Dems want to impose there will on society through what ever means necessary (usually judicial activism, or abuse of executive power) and take away certain liberties. The dems are not the party of liberty and haven't been since at least FDR.

The issues you cite are not so cut and dry as you make them. In the abortion issue there are other liberties in question, as well as, ultimately, the gay marriage issue. The assisted suicide thing is a Legal thing and also works against certain liberties.

And, as Cal pointed out, liberties don't have anything to do with behavior. You are mischaracterizing liberty and painting a false premise.

In fact, the dynamic that the article sets up, the spectrum of equality and liberty already has modern liberals on the equality end and American conservatives on the liberty end (as much as the Framer were). But neither equality nor liberty trumps the rule of law and liberty cannot be absolute or "open" under any government.
 
Ok, so if liberty doesn't necessarily mean embracing certain behavior, rather simply staying out of it, then was GW embracing liberty when he called for a ban on gay marriage?
He was neither expanding or rescinding it in that case, merely seeking a legal, constitutional DEFINITION of it.

And in principle, the gesture (because everyone knew it wouldn't happen) was wrong. It was a political RESPONSE to the aggressive judicial activism that we were seeing. A constitutional amendment was wrong, it should remain a state issue. And other states shouldn't be compelled to recognize it if they chose not to.

That's a pretty clear and epic failure to embrace liberty.
Why are you discussing President Bush? And why are you compelled to have a discussing specifically about "gay marriage."

And worse yet, why are you so compelled to over simplify this.
You do know what federalism is, don't you? States rights.
So you do know that you can oppose something from the federal government but consider it in different when applied by a state or local government?

I agree, they don't need to go around endorsing gay marriage to further liberty, but I think not banning something is an indication that liberty is alive and well.
You mean DEFINING something. Because it didn't "ban" anything, the discussion was always about legal specificity.
 
So, the republican party can't even walk away from decrying gay marriage, abortion, assisted suicide and open civil liberties. If they can't do that - then they really have no hope in the 2010 election. They are so out of touch with America it is scary. I hate the one party system.... and I am a member of the one.

Cal, do you really think that the Republican party will abandon the gay marriage issue - and go for civil unions? No way.

Do you think they will ever understand that burning the flag is an open civil liberty - hahahahahaha.

Do you think they will allow their constituents to change the face of the abortion issue, pushing for an unpassable amendment, rather than how they currently attack - working through more easily achieved legislative law?

Have you been watching the Republican assault on the assisted suicide law in Oregon?

The Republicans will run the next election on economics, but will lose on civil liberties, because, once again, they will fail to read the pulse of America.
Look who is participating in groupthink now. You're full of nothing but talking points and empty platitudes. When Shag and Cal (too patiently) answer every one of your ridiculous notions, you're nowhere to be found. You're clearly not interested in an honest debate.
 
Fox is in full propaganda mode.
She's restating her misrepresentation as truth and reframing the discussion to perpetuate her talking point.

There's a huge difference between local politics and federal politics. The Republican party being discussed right now is a national party discussing national issues. With the possible exception of constitutional protection extended to the fetus, the rest of the issues she mentions are LOCAL.

And despite her desperate desire to frame and misrepresent her political opposition in unflattering ways, the fact is a federalist, constitutionalists, LIBERTY based platform at the national level is absolutely consistent and applicable to the vast majority of self-identified Republicans and independents.
 
Look who is participating in groupthink now. You're full of nothing but talking points and empty platitudes. When Shag and Cal (too patiently) answer every one of your ridiculous notions, you're nowhere to be found. You're clearly not interested in an honest debate.

oh... I was chasing the mighty dollar foss - something I thought you might understand.

So, obviously I have read a completely different article. Isn't Ms Dalmia basically stating that if you want government out of the boardroom, maybe the republicans should also be looking at keeping the government out of the bedroom?

The assisted suicide thing is a Legal thing and also works against certain liberties.

And shag - she very specifically addresses end-of-life issues.

A commitment to liberty won't settle the abortion debate because even people who are pro-choice (like me) have to acknowledge that there is no easy answer as to when individuals become entitled to rights. But it will settle many end-of-life and other social issues where only an individual's own life is at stake.

So, are you disagreeing with her viewpoint on this part of 'commitment to liberty' - the right to assisted suicide?

Scalia voted to allow the burning of the flag.

You agree with him shag? That it is OK to burn the flag?
 
So, are you disagreeing with her viewpoint on this part of 'commitment to liberty' - the right to assisted suicide?

You can't simply make up rights as you go along. There is no "right to assisted suicide" in the Constitution.

You agree with him shag? That it is OK to burn the flag?

I agree with him that the burning of the flag in political protest is covered under the free speech clause of the 1st amendment, and so the federal government cannot make any restrictions on it. But I don't think it is OK to burn the flag.
 
You can't simply make up rights as you go along. There is no "right to assisted suicide" in the Constitution.

So, shag, you believe in the case of assisted suicide that the government is correct in enforcing the unalienable right of life, while ignoring the other two, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? It really is a very intrusive form of government then, isn't it? It is dictating that your right to life isn't really yours at all - but is dictated by governmental decree and the government can enforce that life be continued at the cost of stepping on liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

So, you are disagreeing with Ms Dalmia that a commitment to liberty, also an unalienable right, would help answer end-of-life issues? Right to life trumps right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness? That the greater good must be served by forcing life to continue?

I agree with him that the burning of the flag in political protest is covered under the free speech clause of the 1st amendment, and so the federal government cannot make any restrictions on it. But I don't think it is OK to burn the flag.

So, even though the constitution allows for burning of the flag, why aren't you OK with it Shag?
 
So, shag, you believe in the case of assisted suicide that the government is correct in enforcing the unalienable right of life, while ignoring the other two, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

"Liberty" and "pursuit of happiness" are not specific rights; they are too vague for that. At best they are categories of rights. What constitutes a "liberty" is clarified in the Bill of Rights, and the "pursuit of happiness" is only in the Declaration of Independence, which is not legally binding, and served a different purpose.

It is interesting that you will acknowledge a trade-off between liberties only when you are trying to dishonestly manufacture that trade-off. It should also be noted that, in that false dilemma you created, you are clearly siding with the "right" to an assisted suicide over the constitutional right to life.

What you seem to be doing is trying to manufacture other "rights" that can then be said to be in support of the made up "right to assisted suicide"; so you can then rudely and dishonestly mischaracterize the dilemma as having the Constitutional right to life on one side and three other "rights" on the other side. Even if your lies were true, simply because one right is in conflict with numerous others doesn't justify it being overridden; you still need to make that justification. Depending on the circumstances, it might make more sense for one right to override most any other. And, in general, the right to life is prioritized over all others in the Constitution.

You are simply trying to rationalize your false premise.

It really is a very intrusive form of government then, isn't it? It is dictating that your right to life isn't really yours at all - but is dictated by governmental decree and the government can enforce that life be continued at the cost of stepping on liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

You are mischaracterizing the argument. The federal government has a constitutional obligation to protect life.

So, you are disagreeing with Ms Dalmia that a commitment to liberty, also an unalienable right, would help answer end-of-life issues?

More made up, vague "rights" to rationalize your false premise and set up a straw man. "Commitment of liberty" is in no way a right; in fact, it is too vague to be a specific right.

Cal nailed you when he said in post #13:
Fox is in full propaganda mode.
She's restating her misrepresentation as truth and reframing the discussion to perpetuate her talking point.
 
"Liberty" and "pursuit of happiness" are not specific rights; they are too vague for that. At best they are categories of rights. What constitutes a "liberty" is clarified in the Bill of Rights, and the "pursuit of happiness" is only in the Declaration of Independence, which is not legally binding, and served a different purpose.

I am trying to understand the ‘commitment to liberty’ idea that she puts forth in the article. It appears she believes it is a ‘commitment to liberty’ to remove end-of-life issues from the legal system.

Are there justifications for allowing assisted suicide within the constitution and declaration?

Oh shag, you have included the declaration within argument before as referable law – does this now apply only in certain cases? And the right to life is pretty fuzzy as well. It is removed in the case of capital punishment, it is removed in the case of the fetus, because the constitution doesn’t allow for rights to begin until birth, there are others…

It is interesting that you will acknowledge a trade-off between liberties only when you are trying to dishonestly manufacture that trade-off. It should also be noted that, in that false dilemma you created, you are clearly siding with the "right" to an assisted suicide over the constitutional right to life.

What you seem to be doing is trying to manufacture other "rights" that can then be said to be in support of the made up "right to assisted suicide"; so you can then rudely and dishonestly mischaracterize the dilemma as having the Constitutional right to life on one side and three other "rights" on the other side. Even if your lies were true, simply because one right is in conflict with numerous others doesn't justify it being overridden; you still need to make that justification. Depending on the circumstances, it might make more sense for one right to override most any other. And, in general, the right to life is prioritized over all others in the Constitution.

Well, glad to see that I am already ‘rudely and dishonestly’ mischaracterizing the dilemma, when I am just trying to find out what is behind ms Dalmai’s point.

Shag – you can quit that right now – it is immature at best, and at worse it really shows how when you are backed into a corner, you pull out the name calling.

So, in an effort to get back on point – lets look at how the liberties do work together…

Although the government has a constitutional obligation to protect life – it also has a constitutional obligation to protect liberty. In the case of the draft the obligation to protect liberty overrules the onus to protect life. The right to life may be sacrificed to ensure the right of liberty.

We also have the ‘dilemma’ of ‘make my day’ laws. Here, on an individual basis, the right to life has been dismissed in lieu of the right to pursue happiness (which encompasses Locke’s right to property). It does get a bit muddy with regards to the presumed criminal element, and even more so when the idea of removing judge and jury from the equation. But, there is an example of hierarchy with regards to rights.

Is the right to an individual’s own life able to be overruled in the case of that same individual’s right to liberty and happiness? That is what she is arguing here…
it will settle many end-of-life and other social issues where only an individual's own life is at stake.
 
Oh shag, you have included the declaration within argument before as referable law – does this now apply only in certain cases?

more rude mischaracterization. I used the Declaration as an example of the philosophical underpinnings inherent in the founding of the country and in the Framer's minds. You dishonest implication of a "double standard" ignores that distinction and mischaracterizes my actions.

And the right to life is pretty fuzzy as well. It is removed in the case of capital punishment

It is removed through due process. Overlooking that fact is taking that action out of context.

You are simply obfuscating to, paraphrasing hrmwrm from another thread, "create a cloud of doubt" in which to insert your false premise.


Shag – you can quit that right now – it is immature at best, and at worse it really shows how when you are backed into a corner, you pull out the name calling.

It is only "immature" or whatever other adjective you wanna apply to my actions, if what I say is not accurate. It seems you would rather critique my actions then consider the substance of what I say. :rolleyes:

Although the government has a constitutional obligation to protect life – it also has a constitutional obligation to protect liberty. In the case of the draft the obligation to protect liberty overrules the onus to protect life. The right to life may be sacrificed to ensure the right of liberty.

You are simply working to manufacture that "cloud of doubt" through obfuscation. The Constitution has an obligation to protect specific liberties that are spelled out in the Bill of Rights and in the various amendments. You are falsely generalizing here.

What are the specific liberties for which the obligation to protect is supposedly somehow overriding the onus to protect life?

Even if your false premise is accepted, it in no way justifies some sort of exception in the case of a "right to assisted suicide". You still haven't even proven that the "right" to assisted suicide is in the Constitution. You are simply asserting it as fact and ignoring counter arguments.
 
more rude mischaracterization. I used the Declaration as an example of the philosophical underpinnings inherent in the founding of the country and in the Framer's minds. You dishonest implication of a "double standard" ignores that distinction and mischaracterizes my actions.

No, shag, you have referred to the declaration as spelling out the idea of natural rights – and that we should adhere to those rights – as if law – I think most recently in the torture thread.

It is removed through due process. Overlooking that fact is taking that action out of context.

So, how are the questions of the draft and make my day laws removing the right to life with due process?

You are simply working to manufacture that "cloud of doubt" through obfuscation. The Constitution has an obligation to protect specific liberties that are spelled out in the Bill of Rights and in the various amendments. You are falsely generalizing here.

What are the specific liberties for which the obligation to protect is supposedly somehow overriding the onus to protect life?

Shag, the Constitution assumes that all people automatically have civil liberties and therefore restrains the government from abusing its power to infringe on those rights. Isn’t removing the right of liberty – in order to preserve the right of life, in the case of an individual, an abuse of the government’s power?

There is a private realm of life, which the government cannot infringe upon without violating the Constitution. Within this domain of privacy, individuals have certain liberties of thought, belief, and action. Why would the end-of-life scenario not fall within that domain?

Isn’t the government tasked with creating this condition of liberty for the individual? How can freedom and power, liberty and authority, be combined and balanced? Within the large group dynamic – it is done often with an eye to the greater good. But, when you look at where the government infringes on the private actions of the individual, doesn’t the question of individual ‘good’ come into play? Where is the harm to the greater good if the government allows assisted suicide? The idea of protecting life can be answered with the alternate ideas of protecting liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Within the constitution you can refer to the Necessary and Proper and the Privileges and Immunities Clauses as well as the Due Process clauses in the 5th and 14th if you want to look at specifics.

You still haven't even proven that the "right" to assisted suicide is in the Constitution. You are simply asserting it as fact and ignoring counter arguments.

You haven’t proved that there isn’t a right within the constitution to assisted suicide shag – if it is viewed as a right to liberty. The government needs to remove a liberty that affects only the individual in question. Or does it affect the group dynamic as well shag? How does it affect the group dynamic?

And shag – don’t unalienable rights (natural rights) define a bubble around the individual that the government can’t infringe upon? So long as the individual isn’t practicing their ‘liberty’ in a way that harms others. Didn’t the founding fathers believe that natural rights exist independently of and precede the establishment of government? So, where does the idea arise that the liberty of assisted suicide infringes on the liberty or natural rights of others?
 
No, shag, you have referred to the declaration as spelling out the idea of natural rights – and that we should adhere to those rights – as if law – I think most recently in the torture thread.

Can't give up those false premises can you. :rolleyes:

The DOI spells out what natural rights are and where they come from (which was the focus of the debate). Life is the only specified right there, though. Liberty and "the pursuit of happiness" are broad categories. What was understood to be covered in those categories was specifically spelled out in the Bill of Rights. Later rights have been added to that list through the amendment process. But there is no broad "right to liberty" or right to "the pursuit of happiness". Rights are what make up both those categories.

So, how are the questions of the draft and make my day laws removing the right to life with due process?

A loaded question. It assumes that both those things are removing a right to life when you have not established that; only asserted that.

Shag, the Constitution assumes that all people automatically have civil liberties and therefore restrains the government from abusing its power to infringe on those rights.

More mischaracterization and perpetuation of false premises without countering rational arguments.

There is a private realm of life, which the government cannot infringe upon without violating the Constitution. Within this domain of privacy, individuals have certain liberties of thought, belief, and action. Why would the end-of-life scenario not fall within that domain?

So, you start out with nothing more then Textually baseless conjecture to reach a conclusion that serves to rationalize your false premise.

Isn’t the government tasked with creating this condition of liberty for the individual?

No. You are trying to say the government is tasked with "positive rights" when that isn't the case. Another subtle attempt to inject a false premise.

How can freedom and power, liberty and authority, be combined and balanced? Within the large group dynamic – it is done often with an eye to the greater good.

No, within totalitarian regimes it is done with an eye for the "greater good".

Where is the harm to the greater good if the government allows assisted suicide? The idea of protecting life can be answered with the alternate ideas of protecting liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

That is your "justification"? Basically you are saying "what harm could it do". This ignores the obligation due to the rule of law, that the government has to protect life.

It is interesting that you are willing to cite an obligation of the government to protect a right when it supports your position, but see fit to ignore it when it doesn't suit your agenda.

It seems pretty clear that you are simply throwing any argument you can think of against the wall to see if it sticks. Your arguments in this thread are rather inconsistent with each other; a pattern that seems to be true throughout your posts in this forum.

Within the constitution you can refer to the Necessary and Proper and the Privileges and Immunities Clauses as well as the Due Process clauses in the 5th and 14th if you want to look at specifics.

There is really no connection of the privileges and immunities clause to the idea you are ascribing to it; unless you are talking about some sort of legal fiction made up by liberal activist judges to insert their own agenda into the Constitution.

As to the Due Process clause, the only way that could support your assertion is through the equivocation of the Due Process clause that judicial activists usually assert to malign and distort the constitution to unconstitutionally impose their agenda; substantive due process.

You haven’t proved that there isn’t a right within the constitution to assisted suicide shag – if it is viewed as a right to liberty.

So now you are trying to shift the burden of proof to make me prove a negative?

In this thread, all you have done is rudely and dishonestly tried to reframe the debate by injecting your false premises and mischaracterize other arguments and actions. You have shown an inability to debate this issue in good faith (as I have shown numerous times in this thread). As such, any attempt to have a debate with you is nothing but an exercise in frustration. I am not going to continue it. :Bang

I would also recommend to anyone else on this forum to stop debating her if she starts in with these dishonest patterns as all it does is frustrate any attempt at an honest debate. If that action is allowed to flourish on this forum there can be no honest debate. She is clearly a dedicated propagandist and has no interest in having an honest discussion aimed at seeking the truth; only in rationalizing, defending and perpetuating her political views and prejudice.
 
Thank you shag - I try to discover the logic behind one of the points of the article above, and you continue to call me rude and dishonest...

Since you can't converse, and can only argue at a rather obviously college boy level, you are probably right - you shouldn't argue with me - I really am not that interested in your style of argument. I am however interested in discussing the issue - why is assisted suicide often viewed in law as just a right to life issue, and why doesn't it encompass the right to liberty and the right to pursue happiness? Could there be a natural right that allows us to end our own life? Could it be our Christian background that looks at this with such disfavor? And, why is it that if you are healthy enough to take your own life, the whole argument is rather esoteric, but, if you are unable to take your own life, but still wish to, the consequences rear their ugly heads... Why is there such a huge difference?

And, yes I do just throw things out there - I explore the 'what its', it is what I do. I know I am not bright enough to have all the answers - so I wander down different alleyways and ask 'why'. You are quite confident in your 'rightness' I am not in mine...

Such as in this issue, why does the government only concern itself with a single right - without taking others into account, that is a far more interesting question. It is why I asked you why to prove a negative - it is sort of important to understanding the question isn't it?

Stick in some latin words, link to some terms of debate, it really doesn't interest me shag - minutia is fairly boring at some point.
 

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