Decoding Mr. Bush's Denials

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Decoding Mr. Bush's Denials
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/15/opinion/15tue1.html?hp
Published: November 15, 2005

To avoid having to account for his administration's misleading statements before the war with Iraq, President Bush has tried denial, saying he did not skew the intelligence. He's tried to share the blame, claiming that Congress had the same intelligence he had, as well as President Bill Clinton. He's tried to pass the buck and blame the C.I.A. Lately, he's gone on the attack, accusing Democrats in Congress of aiding the terrorists.

Yesterday in Alaska, Mr. Bush trotted out the same tedious deflection on Iraq that he usually attempts when his back is against the wall: he claims that questioning his actions three years ago is a betrayal of the troops in battle today.

It all amounts to one energetic effort at avoidance. But like the W.M.D. reports that started the whole thing, the only problem is that none of it has been true.

Mr. Bush says everyone had the same intelligence he had - Mr. Clinton and his advisers, foreign governments, and members of Congress - and that all of them reached the same conclusions. The only part that is true is that Mr. Bush was working off the same intelligence Mr. Clinton had. But that is scary, not reassuring. The reports about Saddam Hussein's weapons were old, some more than 10 years old. Nothing was fresher than about five years, except reports that later proved to be fanciful.

Foreign intelligence services did not have full access to American intelligence. But some had dissenting opinions that were ignored or not shown to top American officials. Congress had nothing close to the president's access to intelligence. The National Intelligence Estimate presented to Congress a few days before the vote on war was sanitized to remove dissent and make conjecture seem like fact.

It's hard to imagine what Mr. Bush means when he says everyone reached the same conclusion. There was indeed a widespread belief that Iraq had chemical and biological weapons. But Mr. Clinton looked at the data and concluded that inspections and pressure were working - a view we now know was accurate. France, Russia and Germany said war was not justified. Even Britain admitted later that there had been no new evidence about Iraq, just new politics.

The administration had little company in saying that Iraq was actively trying to build a nuclear weapon. The evidence for this claim was a dubious report about an attempt in 1999 to buy uranium from Niger, later shown to be false, and the infamous aluminum tubes story. That was dismissed at the time by analysts with real expertise.

The Bush administration was also alone in making the absurd claim that Iraq was in league with Al Qaeda and somehow connected to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. That was based on two false tales. One was the supposed trip to Prague by Mohamed Atta, a report that was disputed before the war and came from an unreliable drunk. The other was that Iraq trained Qaeda members in the use of chemical and biological weapons. Before the war, the Defense Intelligence Agency concluded that this was a deliberate fabrication by an informer.

Mr. Bush has said in recent days that the first phase of the Senate Intelligence Committee's investigation on Iraq found no evidence of political pressure to change the intelligence. That is true only in the very narrow way the Republicans on the committee insisted on defining pressure: as direct pressure from senior officials to change intelligence. Instead, the Bush administration made what it wanted to hear crystal clear and kept sending reports back to be redone until it got those answers.

Richard Kerr, a former deputy director of central intelligence, said in 2003 that there was "significant pressure on the intelligence community to find evidence that supported a connection" between Iraq and Al Qaeda. The C.I.A. ombudsman told the Senate Intelligence Committee that the administration's "hammering" on Iraq intelligence was harder than he had seen in his 32 years at the agency.

Mr. Bush and other administration officials say they faithfully reported what they had read. But Vice President Dick Cheney presented the Prague meeting as a fact when even the most supportive analysts considered it highly dubious. The administration has still not acknowledged that tales of Iraq coaching Al Qaeda on chemical warfare were considered false, even at the time they were circulated.

Mr. Cheney was not alone. Remember Condoleezza Rice's infamous "mushroom cloud" comment? And Secretary of State Colin Powell in January 2003, when the rich and powerful met in Davos, Switzerland, and he said, "Why is Iraq still trying to procure uranium and the special equipment needed to transform it into material for nuclear weapons?" Mr. Powell ought to have known the report on "special equipment"' - the aluminum tubes - was false. And the uranium story was four years old.

The president and his top advisers may very well have sincerely believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. But they did not allow the American people, or even Congress, to have the information necessary to make reasoned judgments of their own. It's obvious that the Bush administration misled Americans about Mr. Hussein's weapons and his terrorist connections. We need to know how that happened and why.

Mr. Bush said last Friday that he welcomed debate, even in a time of war, but that "it is deeply irresponsible to rewrite the history of how that war began." We agree, but it is Mr. Bush and his team who are rewriting history.
 
That's basically a recap of everything everyone has said on this forum. When will his supporters take a real look at what happened?

It is so obvious that BuSh wanted to go to war so that he looked like he was doing something about 9/11 under the guise of ridding the world of Saddam and his WMD. It was typical of his deflection from the fact that the world's most sophisticated army couldn't find the real 9/11 culprit. Still hasn't.

History will not treat George W. Bush kindly. He's no hero in my book.
 
barry2952 said:
That's basically a recap of everything everyone has said on this forum. When will his supporters take a real look at what happened?

Never! Blind Trust! That's all they have! Also a stuborn as GW is, not willing to accept the true facts.
 
This is a terrible editorial, but I would expect nothing more from the New York Times. It's premise is wrong from the beginning and it has little regard for actual truth. It has more spin than a memo straight from the DNC headquarters.

Decoding Mr. Bush's Denials....
But that is scary, not reassuring. The reports about Saddam Hussein's weapons were old, some more than 10 years old. Nothing was fresher than about five years, except reports that later proved to be fanciful.
O.K. So we are acknowledging that the information was consistant, despite the claim that some of it may have been ten years old. So this would mean there was no "deception" involved, just failed intelligence gathering.

So, do we blame the President who's been in office for two years, or the one who had eight years to destroy the intelligence gathering capabilities of the country? How do you blame Bush for not having enough intelligence assets in Iraq when the decade prior, the administation repeatedly advanced policies that made intelligence a greater challenge, eased up on Hussein and permitted the expulsion of UN inspectors?

As for the "fanciful"- that statement is to vague to debate because there is no way to know what he's refering to as "fanciful." If it's the "yellow cake uranium story," then we should remind the NY Times that despite Joe Wilson's deception, the story is infact true. The Iraqi's DID seek to buy it.


Foreign intelligence services did not have full access to American intelligence. But some had dissenting opinions that were ignored or not shown to top American officials.
So, they're saying that we failed to show our inadequate and fanciful data to our allies?

Congress had nothing close to the president's access to intelligence.
The intelligence committe does to.


It's hard to imagine what Mr. Bush means when he says everyone reached the same conclusion. There was indeed a widespread belief that Iraq had chemical and biological weapons. But Mr. Clinton looked at the data and concluded that inspections and pressure were working - a view we now know was accurate.
No, this isn't true. Hussein was still ambitiously putting together the pieces necessary to reactivate his nuclear and weapon programs. He was still engaged in corrupt dealings through the UN and the Oil for Food Program. And many of the same liberals who are saying the "sanctions worked" now were the ones who were complaining that the sanctions were killing 50,000 Iraqi children.

It must be nice to be a liberal, you get to stay on both sides of every issue... Every issue except one, they're always convinced the U.S. is wrong and the embodiment of evil.

France, Russia and Germany said war was not justified.
France, Russia, and Germany has extense back room deals and contracts in place with Hussein. They had a distinct economic incentive to prevent the war. Regime change meant all of their contracts were going to be voided.

This isn't to mention the millions in blood money they were making through Hussein and the programs like Oil For Food.

In fact, I would argue that these three countries made war inevitable. Because of their 2 vote veto power on the security counsel, Hussein was confident that they would be able to prevent any kind of military action on Iraq. Because of this, he felt little pressure to complain to 1441.

Hussein was also confident that pressure from these three members would lead to a lifting of he sanctions, and then the freedom and money to completely reactivate his weapon programs.

Even Britain admitted later that there had been no new evidence about Iraq, just new politics.
Killing 3000 citizens in a morning will sort of make you rethink foreign policy.

The administration had little company in saying that Iraq was actively trying to build a nuclear weapon. The evidence for this claim was a dubious report about an attempt in 1999 to buy uranium from Niger, later shown to be false,
I know, the NY Times has never let "facts" get in the way of a good editorial before, but let's correct this one.

The attempt to purchase uranium from Niger was TRUE. Everyone has confirmed it. And there is clear evidence that Hussein had his nuclear program ready to be reactivated.

and the infamous aluminum tubes story. That was dismissed at the time by analysts with real expertise.
And it was confirmed by analysts with real expertise as well.

The Bush administration was also alone in making the absurd claim that Iraq was in league with Al Qaeda
No, this isn't an abusrd claim. Iraq served as a safe harbor for Al-Queda terrorists. Hussein funded terrorism through the region. There were training camps in Northern Iraq. Hussein wasn't ideologically in league with Al-Queda, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

and somehow connected to the 9/11 terrorist attacks.
The Bush administration has NEVER made a direct link to Hussein and the 9/11 attack.



Mr. Bush has said in recent days that the first phase of the Senate Intelligence Committee's investigation on Iraq found no evidence of political pressure to change the intelligence. That is true only in the very narrow way the Republicans on the committee insisted on defining pressure: as direct pressure from senior officials to change intelligence. Instead, the Bush administration made what it wanted to hear crystal clear and kept sending reports back to be redone until it got those answers......
So now we're critical of Bush for asking for a clear conclussion from the professionals? Would you rather Bush be handed all the information and given the sole responsibility of interpretting it himself? What hypocrits.

The paper acknowledges that there was NO pressure, then comes up with stupid criticism. Is there any wonder why Ny Times circulation has fallen off, and it has lost virtually all credibility?


Mr. Bush said last Friday that he welcomed debate, even in a time of war, but that "it is deeply irresponsible to rewrite the history of how that war began." We agree, but it is Mr. Bush and his team who are rewriting history.

Do I need to reprint the list of Democrat comments about Iraqi weapons dating back to 1998? This is such a transparent, and dishonest, attempt to make political gains at the expense of National Security.

It's disgusting, and anyone who supports these people, the Democrat Party, really should feel dirty.

First of all, the sole reason for invading Iraq was not because HE HAD WMDs. Clearly they thought he did, otherwise, why would they send the military in with biohazard suits?

Clearly he had nuclear ambitions, in the 80s Israel blew up their reactor... the one that was built using French technology.

But the war isn't just about Hussein having weapons. It's part of a larger plan designed to combat the threat of terrorism, and more specifically, to reshape the face of the Middle East. It's ambitious and visionary. And at no time has anyone in the Bush administration said it was going to be quick or easy. I've never heard an assessment that said less than five years of large scale involvement in that country.

There were intelligence failures associated with this war. Why didn't the state department and intelligence agencies know that Iraq was just two steps ahead of the stone age? But the implication is that there was a fraud perpetrated on the public, and that just isn't the case.

And it is the most dispicable kind of political opportunism to do this. An honest discussion as to why the intelligence wasn't perfect is good, and constructive. The Democrats aren't engaging in anything constructive at all. According to a liberal, history began yesterday. They are never accountable for their past failure, and they lack the ability to judge things with a historical context. So, it doesn't matter if they implemented the policy of regime change in Iraq under Bill Clinton. And it doesn't matter that Clinton put us on the brink of War in Iraq everytime he was accused of raping another woman. And it certainly doesn't matter that he dismantled the intelligence community, and since he lacked any kind of visionary foreign policy, he took no proactive steps to reshape or foreign policy or intelligence to deal with the emerging threats of the 21th century and not the cold war.

Don't forget, the U.S. endured a succession of attacks by Al-Queda all through the 90s, but they were never addressed. So, it's even more hypocritcal when a rag like the times, after 8 years of boot licking, is condemning the Bush administration for not completely reforming all the agencies with the intelligence and state departments yet. And it's even worse when you recognize that every time he tries to nominate a reformer into the leadership positions to do that, he's met with unyielding criticism from fish-wrapers like the Ny Times. Look at the opposition Bolton and Goss received.
 
barry2952 said:
History will not treat George W. Bush kindly. He's no hero in my book.

Perhaps if you read a few more books, you'd view history a little differently.

Mespock said:
Never! Blind Trust! That's all they have! Also a stuborn as GW is, not willing to accept the true facts.
When you recognize that the editorial department of the New York Times is only one step above publishing articles about "BAT Boy getting lose" you'll understand that this is an article that needs to be dismissed.

It's not an argument, it a press release from Harry Reid.
 
I stick by my statement. George W. Bush is no hero and he will be forever villified for his actions. But that's just my opinion. Oh yeah, By Rasmussen's numbers say 57% of American's agree with me.
 
barry2952 said:
I stick by my statement. George W. Bush is no hero and he will be forever villified for his actions. But that's just my opinion. Oh yeah, By Rasmussen's numbers say 57% of American's agree with me.

By the way, that comment I made was inapprorpriate. Unfortuantely, I didn't edit it in time.

As for Rasmussen numbers, I guess I missed the poll that found 57% of Americans think "Bush will be villified by historians for freeing 20,000,000 people and reshaping the face of the Middle East," perhaps I just skimmed over it too quickly.

You've can't be an effective executive if you base your decisions on short term poll numbers. Let's see how the poll numbers are in Nov. of 2006.
 
Calabrio,

Don't look at me, Bryan's the one that spouts Rasmussen poll numbers.

I was only slightly offended by your remark. I am pleased that you acknowleded it.

It is obvious that you have a vast knowledge of history but you shouldn't bank on President Bush's vindication. I firmly believe that it is he who attempts to write history, not those that he accuses of rewriting it.

I have to ask you a couple of questions. Did we not both watch aerial surveilance portrayed by Colin Powell as difinitive proof that WMD were stored in specific facilities? Did we not both watch CNN as we attacked Iraq on the ground? Why didn't we find WMD? I've heard it proffed so many times that the WMD were moved to Syria. In what? Invisible trucks. We have the best surveilance in the world. Where's the proof?

I sat glued to my television for weeks hoping to hear of a verified find of WMD. None ever came. I'm sorry, for all the conservative dodging you all know that the American public perceives that WMD was the one specific target of our efforts. We can't help feeling that we were misled.

Actually, I may have used the wrong term in the previous paragraph. I used the word conservative as if it was his only base. I believe he has supporters across the spectrum but, in my opinion, he seems to be losing his conservative base the fastest.
 
barry2952 said:
I have to ask you a couple of questions.

Did we not both watch aerial surveilance portrayed by Colin Powell as difinitive proof that WMD were stored in specific facilities?
He gave evidence that Iraq did have a program to develop WMDs.
And he also gave evidence as to how quickly they could move them leaving virtually no trace. He showed evidence of labs based on the back of tractor trailers. Trucks that could easily disappear.

Did we not both watch CNN as we attacked Iraq on the ground? Why didn't we find WMD? I've heard it proffed so many times that the WMD were moved to Syria. In what? Invisible trucks. We have the best surveilance in the world. Where's the proof?
Even the best surveilance in the world is unable to track every square mile of a country the size of California. Sadly, most of our expectations regarding military intelligence is far more influence by movies and science fiction than it is in fact.


I sat glued to my television for weeks hoping to hear of a verified find of WMD. None ever came. I'm sorry, for all the conservative dodging you all know that the American public perceives that WMD was the one specific target of our efforts. We can't help feeling that we were misled.
And it is absolutely valid to ask "why" the intelligence failed us so. Not simply regarding the inability to find any substantial stock piles of WMDs, but to more social and economic problems inside Iraq as well. Why didn't they know the population of Iraq was living in the Stone Age? Why did they rely on informants who hadn't lived in Iraq for over a decade.

Most people start to become socially aware around the age of 8-10. Operation Desert Storm was in 1991. So what do you think the average age of the native Iraqi insurgent is? What do you think their first memories are.

In the space of this post, I'm not going to address my theories and explanations for the failings. But it's perfectly valid to want to know what went wrong. And the governmet does have an obligation to investigate itself and provide an explanation.

That's not what we're hearing now though. The Democrat party is trying to make political gain out of this with no regard for the damage done. Their problem is they overwhelmingly supported a war, but their base is overwhelmingly against it. What are they to do?

They'll pretend they were mislead. And they'll attack the integrity of the President and his political party while their at it. They'll revise history, knowing full well the short attention span of the public. And since their "supporters" don't want to think Bush could have made a rational decision, they're very comforted to think that their candidates were just "fooled." To hell with the facts, to hell with the ten year build up.

Right now, we need to present a united front. There is no reasonable reason to believe that the President would involve us in a needless war for personal reasons. Reasons that are conspiculously never provided by these conspiracy Democrats.

It is not destructive or bad to say, "why didn't we know." It is destructive and it weakens us as a nation when people say "Despite no evidence, he lied, He's dishonest. We shouldn't go to war. America is wrong.."


Actually, I may have used the wrong term in the previous paragraph. I used the word conservative as if it was his only base. I believe he has supporters across the spectrum but, in my opinion, he seems to be losing his conservative bse the fastest.
I know, you're not the guy who brings up the polls. You really need to be careful when you read those. I haven't read the recent ones, so I'm not speaking in specifics. However, the wording in those is very biased, especially in the Pew and Zogby polls. But more importantly, polls are a snapshot. A snapshot of a disconnected and disinterested public. While they might help anticipate voting patterns, they really have nothing to do with the validity or importance of a policy.

And most often, they are used by the mainstream media as a way of shaping public opinion.... "x% of the 1000 people we surveyed (65% democrat, 34% Republican, 1%undecided sample) think y" maybe you should too."
 
What happened to Osama? I remember distinctly after 9/11 and before the war, Bush would use Osama and Saddam in the same sentence over and over throughout his addresses... Correct me if I am wrong, but Osama took credit for masterminding the 9/11 attack, yet Bush never speaks of him anymore. Shouldn't we be concerned about this guy? Shouldn't the president reassure us that we are still after him? Because, if the WMD's were magically spirited away to Syria, whats to stop Osama and his people from using them on the troops or on American soil?
 
C'mon...if you think we're not still after Osama...well, we are.

Actually there has been alot of talk around intelligence circles as to his possibly having been killed in the earthquake. Wishful thinking...yes...impossible...no.
 
95DevilleNS said:
What happened to Osama?
If he's alive, he's likely hiding in Pakistan. A billionaire can buy a lot of protection amongst those tribes.

Are you going to ask why we don't just go into Pakistan and flush him out next? Because, Pakistan isn't stable. The "President" is a dictator who took over the country in a bloodless clue around 2000. If American troops go storming through the country side, it will set off a reaction that could throw the country into chaos, likely forcing Musharef out of power. Why is this bad? While Musharef isn't the ideal leader, he is acting as an allie in the war on terror. If he's forced out, he'll be replaced by a Radical Islamo-fascist who would not assist us. Would fund terrorism. And WOULD HAVE A NUCLEAR BOMB.

It's a delicate situation over there. They are handling it masterfully.

I remember distinctly after 9/11 and before the war, Bush would use Osama and Saddam in the same sentence over and over throughout his addresses... Correct me if I am wrong, but Osama took credit for masterminding the 9/11 attack, yet Bush never speaks of him anymore. Shouldn't we be concerned about this guy? Shouldn't the president reassure us that we are still after him? Because, if the WMD's were magically spirited away to Syria, whats to stop Osama and his people from using them on the troops or on American soil?

Osama wasn't the mastermind of 9/11. He was the front man and a financier of Al-Queda. While there is a psychological benefit in killing and capturing him, it doesn't end the war. He's not "that" important from a strategic standpoint. As mentioned before, he may have been killed in the Earthquake that killed around 100,000 pakistanis. Or, he could be hiding in a cave. He'll eventually be found. But he has been marginalized. And it's important to not get distracted by him.

And what's to stop them from using the weapons that may be in Syria. Hopefully, just the Syrian's fear that we'll turn their country into glass if we find out that they were the staging area for a bio-attack.
 
calabrio,

I disagree. He said the WMD were there. He pointed them out for millions of Americans to see. Their dog and pony show was real convincing.

Please post pictures of the bio labs. What they found was nothing. He'd be parading evidence of WMD all day, every day, if it existed.

OK, you guys seem to be hung up on two things. The first is Clinton. How is he responsible for GWB's decision to act on 10 year old intelligence to make his case for going to war? It's not like GWB moved into the White House and kept the same staff. He changed all the close advisers. Stop blaming Clinton for everything. I didn't vote for him either time. He was too slippery. That doesn't give you guys an out when George misbehaves.

The second is the accusation that Bush lied. OK, let's assume that Bush believed everything he was told. Therefore he didn't lie. However, it has been proven to your satisfaction that there was a failure in the intelligence community. Did GWB not show poor judgement in using that failed information? If your answer is yes, why not just take his licks and move on?
 
FreeFaller said:
C'mon...if you think we're not still after Osama...well, we are.

Actually there has been alot of talk around intelligence circles as to his possibly having been killed in the earthquake. Wishful thinking...yes...impossible...no.

I said no such thing. I just said that after 9/11 Bush would speak of him and his ties to Saddam repeatedly, over and over... Fast forward 3-4 years, Bush never speaks of him.
 
barry2952 said:
That's basically a recap of everything everyone has said on this forum. When will his supporters take a real look at what happened?

It is so obvious that BuSh wanted to go to war so that he looked like he was doing something about 9/11 under the guise of ridding the world of Saddam and his WMD. It was typical of his deflection from the fact that the world's most sophisticated army couldn't find the real 9/11 culprit. Still hasn't.

History will not treat George W. Bush kindly. He's no hero in my book.
Explain the Clinton comments and actions about Iraq first. Let's have that discussion because it appears that Clinton ONCE AGAIN knowing lied to us.

Should we regurgitate all the Democrat talking points when Clinton was in office? The only reason that didn't take any action on the information THEY HAD is because Democrats, for the most part, are pussies.:Bang
 
Calabrio..

As far as marginalizing Osama, don't you think that is a terrible move? If he is the front man and a billionaire financier (bank roll) for Al-Qaeda, wouldn't focusing on him intently be an extremely wise move on the 'War On Terror' campaign? I know Osama is not the 'king' piece in a game of chest and if we kill him all will be well, but cutting a huge part of the terrorist cash flow would make it more difficult for them to move around, supply themselves, plan attacks etc.

That's one of my beefs with Bush. Something that was an imminent threat, a threat so large that war was necessary is now marginalized? Just doesn't sit well with me and others I'm sure.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Calabrio..

As far as marginalizing Osama, don't you think that is a terrible move? If he is the front man and a billionaire financier (bank roll) for Al-Qaeda, wouldn't focusing on him intently be an extremely wise move on the 'War On Terror' campaign? I know Osama is not the 'king' piece in a game of chest and if we kill him all will be well, but cutting a huge part of the terrorist cash flow would make it more difficult for them to move around, supply themselves, plan attacks etc.

That's one of my beefs with Bush. Something that was an imminent threat, a threat so large that war was necessary is now marginalized? Just doesn't sit well with me and others I'm sure.
Your attempt to distract from the debate that isn't going your way will not go unnoticed.

I just scanned this entire thread, and the only thing that doesn't fit in it is your out-of-place expostulation about Osama bin Laden.

We're discussing Bush and Iraq intelligence here, and you decide to change the subject. Why? Can't handle the debate as is?

You libs are the ones who are constantly harping and carping about how Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda have NOTHING to do with Iraq, so now's your chance to practice what you preach.
 
barry2952 said:
It is so obvious that BuSh wanted to go to war so that he looked like he was doing something about 9/11 under the guise of ridding the world of Saddam and his WMD. It was typical of his deflection from the fact that the world's most sophisticated army couldn't find the real 9/11 culprit. Still hasn't.


David,

You should really read the posts. It was #2. Did you even read the article?
 
95DevilleNS said:
Calabrio..

As far as marginalizing Osama, don't you think that is a terrible move? If he is the front man and a billionaire financier (bank roll) for Al-Qaeda, wouldn't focusing on him intently be an extremely wise move on the 'War On Terror' campaign? I know Osama is not the 'king' piece in a game of chest and if we kill him all will be well, but cutting a huge part of the terrorist cash flow would make it more difficult for them to move around, supply themselves, plan attacks etc.

That's one of my beefs with Bush. Something that was an imminent threat, a threat so large that war was necessary is now marginalized? Just doesn't sit well with me and others I'm sure.

The idea is that Bin Laden has lost the ability to do anything much right now. While he may not be dead, he is unable to communicate with the rest of Al-queda. Every communication he makes increases the likelihood their will be a smart bomb fired into the mouth of his cave, or under his tent.

So, right now, he can't fundraise. He can't actively help recruit. There maybe a pr benefit, internally, of showing him on camera being pulled out from the camel's butt he's hiding in... but he's incapacitated otherwise.

The actual masterminds behind the attack have infact been caught or killed. Unfortunately, those stories didn't resonate with the press. Al-Queda has been devastated these past four years.

Bin Laden himself wasn't the threat. He was a figurehead. And it would be a great PR move to kill him, but killing him isn't the same cutting off the head of the snake. He isn't the head, he was just the face.
 
Calabrio said:
The idea is that Bin Laden has lost the ability to do anything much right now. While he may not be dead, he is unable to communicate with the rest of Al-queda. Every communication he makes increases the likelihood their will be a smart bomb fired into the mouth of his cave, or under his tent.

So, right now, he can't fundraise. He can't actively help recruit. There maybe a pr benefit, internally, of showing him on camera being pulled out from the camel's butt he's hiding in... but he's incapacitated otherwise.
.

He is? Al-queda seems to be doing just fine.

Bin Laden - the son of the Bush families best friends....
 
mespock said:
He is? Al-queda seems to be doing just fine.

Well, he certainly has you and all your liberal friends and all your anti-war demonstrators in Congress to thank for all the moral support he's getting.

You guys just keep it up. It's going to be embarrassing when you people end up on the wrong side of history.

What's it like to be a terrorist sympathizer? I can't relate to that.
 
fossten said:
Well, he certainly has you and all your liberal friends and all your anti-war demonstrators in Congress to thank for all the moral support he's getting.

You guys just keep it up. It's going to be embarrassing when you people end up on the wrong side of history.

What's it like to be a terrorist sympathizer? I can't relate to that.

Lol.. See what I mean Calabrio.. If you disagree with Bush then 'YOU MUST HATE AMERICA!" or "YOU MUST BE A TERRORIST SYMPATHIZER!"

McCarthyism at it's finest............
 
95DevilleNS said:
Lol.. See what I mean Calabrio.. If you disagree with Bush then 'YOU MUST HATE AMERICA!" or "YOU MUST BE A TERRORIST SYMPATHIZER!"

McCarthyism at it's finest............

Don't look now, but you committed a major faux pas. McCarthy's time wasn't in the middle of a shooting war: Totally irrelevant.

Right now comments like Rich's (and Ted Kennedy's and Harry Reid's and Dick Turban's, et al) give aid and comfort to our enemies as they see our politicians criticizing and falsely accusing (lying about) our President and our troops. You don't think that the terrorists watch the news? If you think that then you're a moron. The terrorists know exactly what the political climate is here, and they're banking on our spineless liberal dem congressworms to fold their tents and go home. That's what happened to Spain, and that's what's happening to France right now.

What your leaders in Congress are doing is despicable, because they are encouraging our enemies to stay the course and keep attacking our soldiers. They are becoming responsible for future deaths of OUR OWN PEOPLE! If you don't get that then there's no hope for you.
 
fossten said:
Don't look now, but you committed a major faux pas. McCarthy's time wasn't in the middle of a shooting war: Totally irrelevant. .

So when war is called everyone should shut up? That's the American thing to do? Don't look now, but you just shat on the Constitution.

No, the comment was not irrelevent, cold war or not.

fossten said:
Right now comments like Rich's (and Ted Kennedy's and Harry Reid's and Dick Turban's, et al) give aid and comfort to our enemies as they see our politicians criticizing and falsely accusing (lying about) our President and our troops. You don't think that the terrorists watch the news? If you think that then you're a moron. The terrorists know exactly what the political climate is here, and they're banking on our spineless liberal dem congressworms to fold their tents and go home. That's what happened to Spain, and that's what's happening to France right now.

What your leaders in Congress are doing is despicable, because they are encouraging our enemies to stay the course and keep attacking our soldiers. They are becoming responsible for future deaths of OUR OWN PEOPLE! If you don't get that then there's no hope for you.

Lol, you're right, if everyone would shut up and let Bush do whatever he wanted the war would of been over long ago and the people killing US soldiers would never dream of doing such acts. If you think that, then you're a moron.
 
fossten said:
Your attempt to distract from the debate that isn't going your way will not go unnoticed.

I just scanned this entire thread, and the only thing that doesn't fit in it is your out-of-place expostulation about Osama bin Laden.

We're discussing Bush and Iraq intelligence here, and you decide to change the subject. Why? Can't handle the debate as is?.

Osama was a reason for going to war... Like I said in the first post, Bush would use Osama (cause of 9/11 we were made to believe) and Saddam in the same sentence repeatedly, we were made to believe that Saddam had a personal hand in the 9/11 attack. Do you not remember Bush's speeches post 9/11 pre Iraq? But, if you to focus strictly on Iraq Intelligence (wmd's etc.), sure. But Osama was related to Al-Qaeda in intelligence when pretaining to the war. Don't look now, but you just pointed the finger at me for something you're guilty of doing in the pasted yourself.

fossten said:
You libs are the ones who are constantly harping and carping about how Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda have NOTHING to do with Iraq, so now's your chance to practice what you preach.

That's the point! If Osama and Al-Qaeda had everthing to do why we're in Iraq, why has Osama been marginalized as Calabrio put.
 

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