Does Robert McDonnell… believe non-marital sex is a crime?

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Do we judge him by something he wrote 20 years ago?

Does Robert McDonnell, the Republican candidate in the Virginia governor's race, believe non-marital sex is a crime?
David Corn - Politics Daily

McDonnell, who was widely regarded as leading Democrat Creigh Deeds in the off-year election, has hit a rough patch of his own making -- or writing. The 1989 master's thesis he submitted to the evangelical Regent University -- titled "The Republican Party's Vision for the Family: The Compelling Issue of the Decade" -- was unearthed by The Washington Post this past weekend, and it contained the sort of stuff oppo researchers die for. In the 99-page document, McDonnell outlined a battle plan for social conservative warriors that called for the usual things: make abortion illegal, oppose gay rights, bring religion into the schools. The Democrats and media reports have focused on how McDonnell went the extra mile by decrying working women as "detrimental" to the traditional family, blasting federal tax credits for child care expenses, and denouncing a Supreme Court decision overturning laws criminalizing contraception for married folks.

But while reading the full document -- in which McDonnell asserted, "Each institution in society has been instituted by God for specific, limited purposes" -- I learned that McDonnell had been a true fundamentalist, for he had written approvingly of laws that made sexual intercourse outside of marriage illegal.
<snip>
Since the Post first reported the contents of McDonnell's thesis, he has said that his views have changed on many of the issues he addressed in this paper -- particularly the role of women in the workforce. (You betcha.) As Melinda Henneberger notes, he has attempted to pass off his anti-working women sentiments as in keeping with his religion -- a Catholic thing. And he has dismissed the thesis as "a decades-old academic paper I wrote as a student during the Reagan era." A 34-year-old student, that is.
<snip>
 
interesting that we can get this guy's Master's Thesis but can't get any of Obama's college history released. Wonder why that is...

As to the claims the article makes of the thesis, I would like to confirm that. It claims that thesis promotes "making abortion illegal" and that is apparently a "usual thing". Maybe I haven't been to observant over the past few years, but I cannot recall any attempt by republicans to make abortion illegal at the federal level at least.

And more broadly, the way these things are characterized could very easily mischaracterize things by not accounting for Federalist concerns which are unique to the conservative ideology today. Liberalism, libertarianism, etc. make no distinction concerning Federalism. Any and all claims about a SCOTUS ruling (and opinions concerning it) could very well be explainable by that Federalism aspect of the ideology and to miss that would mischaracterize the concern. From a originalist point of view, any SCOTUS concerning state laws on the issue of contraception would likely be judicial activism.

And "writing approvingly of laws that made sexual intercourse outside of marriage illegal" hardly means believing that "non-marital sex is a crime".

You would have to see the actual context and wording he used in all these instances to be able to make the assertions that are being made. However, at least as you have edited it, there is no direct quotation (let alone quotation in context) to support the claims being made. They could very easily be distortions and exaggerations (either intentional or unintentional).

So concerning this doesn't seem to be, "Do we judge him by something he wrote 20 years ago?" just yet, but more, "Do we take this article at face value or confirm the specifics of the claims being made to see if they are somehow being mischaracterized?"
 
I haven't been following the Virginia race, nor am I particularly familiar with that candidate. Shag's point is absolutely valid. And for the moment I'll avoid going off on the tangent concerning the Washington Post's ability to find this man's thesis paper, yet failing to and being unable to do so with so many of the people in the current administration. Or by linking associating this with an effort to dismiss Obama and his adviser's from the statements they've been making for the past 40 years.

Instead, let's just take this opposition research finding at face value.
Unless there was some reason to think otherwise, then yes. It is absolutely reasonable to hold the politician accountable for the opinions expressed within his thesis paper to him. Be he 34 or 54.

If asked, does he have a credible explanation for why his views may or may not differ today? Was there an event, experience, or period of his life that caused him to reflect and his position to change. If he doesn't still agree with his writings, can he explain where the error was? And do his actions since then confirm this.

Merely saying "that was 20 years ago" does not disassociate you from things you said. That's not an excuse.
 
The paper is here...

Old school-just scanned in typed pages.

Shag - I don't include the whole article for various reasons we have discussed before.

So, Cal does address my question - should McDonnell's term paper be used in judging the man today?

If asked, does he have a credible explanation for why his views may or may not differ today? Was there an event, experience, or period of his life that caused him to reflect and his position to change. If he doesn't still agree with his writings, can he explain where the error was? And do his actions since then confirm this.

Cal, I noticed in one place he claims his association with the Catholic Church as one of the 'reasons' behind his strict claims in the term paper. He is still a Catholic, and the church hasn't relented on any of it's stands from 20 years ago, if anything, it has gotten stricter. So that claim of 'why' seems to be rather weak.

So, you would be comfortable holding him at his word that women shouldn't work because it destroys the American Family...

Just skimming the paper is rather eye opening... And rather apropos to current events. McDonnell even has his own version of teaching the 'Republican Way' (disguised as 'family values') to public school children, although he does admit later in this section that this idea would be rather hard to implement because of current First Amendment jurisprudence.
From page 42
The Republican proposal would call for a formal character education program for the nation’s public elementary and secondary students... The particular values to be taught are based on those currently used in successful city programs around the country, and from a consensus from surveys of business leaders and the population at large about what values are important in society...

And one of my favorite tidbits that he uses...
From page 8
Riga concludes that in 15 years of Supreme Court cases ending in1979, the view of marriage as an indissoluble lifelong commitment had been abandoned. In its wake is the perverted notion of liberty that each individual be able to live out his sexual life in any way he chooses without interference from the state.
 
Cal, I noticed in one place he claims....
I don't know anything much about McDonnell so I'm in no position argue in his defense or against him. Right now, I can only address this topic in terms of the principle behind it.

Should he be responsible for what he wrote. Of course.
Do his actions since then advocate what he wrote or do they demonstrate that his argument, outlook, or understand has shifted? That's important.

It's been 20 years, so most people in politics have some kind of written, public, or legislative record to refer to. Are the opinions of the thesis paper supported by his subsequent actions?

You're isolating statements from the paper.
But that's not evidence of anything- UNTIL it's reinforced by something more recently. In this case, the man was the former state attorney general and a 14-year veteran of the House of Delegates, there is a record to refer to. Does this man's record lead to you believe that he continues to advocate those things, because if so, then it's reasonable to use the thesis paper as a supporting argument and further proof.

To answer the question posed in the subject of this thread.
It would appear not.
 
Apparently, at least to some extent the man practices what he preaches...

During his 14 years in the General Assembly, McDonnell pursued at least 10 of the policy goals he laid out in that research paper, including abortion restrictions, covenant marriage, school vouchers and tax policies to favor his view of the traditional family. In 2001, he voted against a resolution in support of ending wage discrimination between men and women.

His voting recording seems to have supported what he wrote in his term paper. Should we also assume that the bulk of the paper is still something that he is striving to achieve? There probably hasn't been a lot of opportunity to have legislation put forth to criminalize sex outside of marriage. But, as governor would he try to get that part of his agenda made into law? He would probably deny it, but is it the politician wanting to get votes? Should we assume that he has changed his feathers, just because he says he has?

It seems like a rather archaic ideal - but it looks to me like he does support it Cal. There wouldn't be a voting record on the specific question - Does he believe that non-martial sex is a crime? But, the fact he has been working to get other of his ideals place into law, might indicate that criminalizing sex outside of marriage might be one of his goals as well, it is put forth in the term paper...
 
I don't know enough about the specifics to discuss McDonnell.
I'm not familiar with him personally, nor do I know his political record.
And because of that, I'm not in a position to defend or condemn him.

What do you think?
Do you think he still wants to make consensual sex between unwed individuals illegal?

The fact that he's supported 10 of the 14 things mentioned in his paper sounds misleading. The 10 things he's supported appear to be pretty mainstream conservative ideas. The real question is, does he still embrace the more "extreme" ideas he expressed 20 years ago and has he done anything to indicate that this one way or the other.

I personally don't know, I don't follow Virginia state politics.
And I don't have a lot of faith in the Washington Post to provide objective reporting.

But again, I don't know the specifics of this political story.
However, it's reasonable to use the thesis paper to help understand the individual. It doesn't necessarily define them.

Ronald Reagan used to be a Roosevelt Democrat.
Would it have been fair to consider him that 20 or 40 years later? Of course not. But you would refer to statements, actions, policies associated with him that would demonstrate his evolution.
 
Just skimming the paper is rather eye opening... And rather apropos to current events. McDonnell even has his own version of teaching the 'Republican Way' (disguised as 'family values') to public school children, although he does admit later in this section that this idea would be rather hard to implement because of current First Amendment jurisprudence.
From page 42
The Republican proposal would call for a formal character education program for the nation’s public elementary and secondary students... The particular values to be taught are based on those currently used in successful city programs around the country, and from a consensus from surveys of business leaders and the population at large about what values are important in society...

Where do you get that the passage you cite here would promote teaching some sort of "Republican way"? There is nothing even remotely political in the "character education" he proposes that can be gleaned from the passage you cite.

Are you saying that character is something unique to Republicans?

And one of my favorite tidbits that he uses...
From page 8
Riga concludes that in 15 years of Supreme Court cases ending in1979, the view of marriage as an indissoluble lifelong commitment had been abandoned. In its wake is the perverted notion of liberty that each individual be able to live out his sexual life in any way he chooses without interference from the state.

That is a bold claim that is probably expanded on and clarified in the paper. Can you give me his justification/explanation for that claim?
 
Typical thread where the stalwart socialist, unable to answer similar accusations about her favorite socialist leaders in Washington, instead seeks to gain moral equivalence by purporting to expose 'hypocrisy' on the right.

This thread doesn't bear answering until the stalwart socialist from Denver answers every single thread already posted on a similar subject - for example, the Van Jones or Ezekiel Emanuel threads.

zzzzzzzz...
 
Typical thread where the stalwart socialist, unable to answer similar accusations about her favorite socialist leaders in Washington, instead seeks to gain moral equivalence by purporting to expose 'hypocrisy' on the right.

This thread doesn't bear answering until the stalwart socialist from Denver answers every single thread already posted on a similar subject - for example, the Van Jones or Ezekiel Emanuel threads.

zzzzzzzz...

Ah, the tsar of trolls speaks... and invokes some sort of trollish law...

So, oh not-so-great one, I shall comply - it is quite easy to ignore every single thread...
 
Ah, the tsar of trolls speaks... and invokes some sort of trollish law...

So, oh not-so-great one, I shall comply - it is quite easy to ignore every single thread...

you don't enjoy getting hoisted by your own petard of hypocrisy, do you?
 
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Virginia Campaign for Governor: Brought to You by the Washington Post
by Jennifer Rubin

There are two gubernatorial races going on right now in the state of Virginia. There is the real one in which Republican Bob McDonnell is running a disciplined, issue-filled campaign against once-promising Democrat Creigh Deeds, who is running a Seinfeld-like campaign about nothing. And there is the campaign going on in the pages of the Washington Post, whose endorsement of Deeds helped vault him over better-known challengers in the primary. The two have nothing to do with one another, one more piece of evidence that the last place you should look to find out what is going on is the mainstream media.

The Post of course has declared the top issue to be a 20-year-old college thesis by McDonnell in which he expressed all sorts of highly out of fashion views on topics such as gays and working women. The Post then proceeded over a two-week span to milk the story, reciting and re-circulating the claims. When it was forced to report the real campaign, it cast McDonnell’s focus on bread and butter issues as an effort to get away from the “real” issue — the Post’s fixation with the thesis. The Weekly Standard’s parody mocking the Post’s thesis fetish blurred the line between fact and fiction when the very next day after running a mock-up of the Post (”Post Runs Another Story About Its McDonnell Story”), the actual Post ran a story headlined: “McDonnell Changes Topic Amid Thesis Issue.” How dare he!

As Gary Andres commented:
Never mind that McDonnell — the state’s former attorney general — premised his campaign on inclusion, pragmatism, and competence, not social issues. Or that he spent 14 years compiling a record in the state’s House of Delegates. Or that the suburban Northern Virginia native offers detailed solutions to front-porch concerns such as improving schools, reducing traffic congestion, and bringing jobs to the state. Deeds might not catch up on those issues. So a caricature that sends shivers through minivan-driving suburban swing voters is just what is needed. Paint McDonnell as a right-wing, anti-abortion, Bible-thumper. And call on the Post — always a reliable ally of Virginia Democrats — to provide the bullets for political character assassination.​
Following the Post’s campaign direction, Deeds began to raise the issue and run ads on the invented “issue” – which the Post dutifully reported on. Ah, further evidence that the campaign is now about McDonnell’s term paper and not his public record or his opponent’s. Except for the scant evidence that voters cared about the issue, the Post might have had a point.

But out on the campaign trail the issue didn’t seem to come up much at all and a poll showed McDonnell stretching his lead to 12 points. The Wall Street Journal observed:
Mr. Deeds hasn’t had an easy road. He had to pull off a come-from-behind win in the primary and bring in more experienced campaign staff. And he continues to struggle to present a defining issue that resonates broadly with voters — this week, his message seemed to be education overhaul. The lack of a clear image has left him vulnerable to Mr. McDonnell’s accusation that he is in lockstep with Mr. Obama and congressional Democrats.

Mr. Deeds faces another obstacle: history. In every Virginia gubernatorial election since 1977, the party that won the presidency the previous year went on to lose the governor’s race.

“Voters in Virginia tend to take on the mission of the founding fathers, who believed in balance. Apparently this thing has become an iron law. It’s just fascinating,” said political science Prof. Larry J. Sabato at the University of Virginia. “It really does give McDonnell a major boost. While this thesis controversy helps Deeds, that can’t counteract this movement away from Obama.”​
But what about that thesis? Well, the Journal agreed it hadn’t made much of an impact.

It is quite a role reversal from the campaign of 2005, in which Republican Jerry Kilgore ran a campaign strangely devoid of any issue which the voters cared about. The death penalty and illegal immigration absorbed his time, about which the mainstream tut-tutted in disapproval, while now Governor Tim Kaine talked about jobs, schools, and transportation — exactly as McDonnell is doing this time around.

Deeds has yet to come up with a defining issue. He instead has been battered by McDonnell, who has sought to corner Deeds on whether he agrees with the Democrats’ left-leaning national agenda on issues including card check, cap-and-trade, and government-centric health care reform which moderate and conservative Virginia voters view with increasing suspicion. Deeds is hoping of course that the Post, as it did with incessant coverage of Sen. George Allen’s infamous “macaca” comment in 2006, can convert this into a race about his opponent’s “scary” views and about social issues that will turn off voters in voter-rich Northern Virginia, where the hometown paper for most voters is none other than the Post.


But the Post may have its work cut out. In the upcoming debates McDonnell, a mild-mannered, detail-oriented lawyer with a wonkish array of policy positions, will be on the stage, not the caricature created by the Post. Voters may have a hard time believing that this McDonnell is the same person targeted by the Post.

And of course, he’s not. The real McDonnell has professional daughters, a record of pushing through bi-partisan legislation and a powerful argument that Virginians can play a role in pushing back on the Democrats’ leftward lurch in Washington. And that tells you why the Post has invented an entirely different McDonnell to cover.
 
So, is this the Washington Post simply responding to what their customers want or is it the Washington Post advocating and campaigning for a political candidate?
 

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