Don't doubt Joegr and other advocates on this subject!

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boomyal

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My original post:

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/showthread.php?94680-Failsafe-mode-2005-Lincoln-LS8

Bottom line is that the car never threw a misfire code until we put up with the 'fail safe' engagement numerous times. After the first rounds of FailSafe we took the car to the dealer and they stress tested the coils. No problems.

Two weeks later, it went into fail safe right after starting then ran poorly even after a restart. Took it back to the dealer and #5 coil threw a misfire code and was emitting RF interference. All the previous throttle body codes were invalid.

We are having them replace all the coils. Most of them at our cost.
 
my bet is on them not really running the stress test or not running it correctly the first time...

it seems odd that #5 coil is the ONLY one they would find marginal as its the least likely to have the interference issues. leads me back to poor testing.
 
The thing is... they will only replace the coils that fail stress testing, and they are claiming it was only one. (They probably didn't really stress test them.) Cheaper to pay for the other coils and do it now, than to wait and ruin the catalytic converters.
 
joegr said:
The thing is... they will only replace the coils that fail stress testing, and they are claiming it was only one. (They probably didn't really stress test them.) Cheaper to pay for the other coils and do it now, than to wait and ruin the catalytic converters.
Click to expand...

That is what we are doing, Two coils were replaced in 2012, under warranty. That fail safe episode was heralded with a cylinder miss code. This time, it took many episodes to throw a miss code. They caught one of the remaining coils as the culprit. We will be paying for the replacement of the remaining 5 coils. The car only has 55K miles on it so the plugs are undoubtedly still good.
 
boomyal said:
The car only has 55K miles on it so the plugs are undoubtedly still good.
Click to expand...

that is as incorrect as you can get get... bad coils kill good plugs, and bad plugs kill good coils. replacing a coil and not replacing the plug is pretty much throwing money away and ends up being like not replacing the coils in the first place...

not to mention, replacing the coil is 90% of the work of replacing the plugs. so its always a "might as well do them while you're there" kinda thing.
 
What's this about rf interference? I haven't seen that before. Is it applicable to a 1st gen? I've got no problems, just curious
 
LSFrank said:
What's this about rf interference? I haven't seen that before. Is it applicable to a 1st gen? I've got no problems, just curious
Click to expand...

Not applicable to the first gen. It's an eletronic throttle thing; which is why I totally believe the Toyota unintended acelleration issue. Electrical gremlins are tough to diagnose!
 
jjcool00 said:
I think my eyes are going bad... Could've sworn the title of the thread was not to doubt Joegr.... hmm.
Click to expand...

Already issued that directive! The dealer will replace all the plugs. However, I think that their discovery of the bad #5 coil has not ended there. They were test driving it this morning after yesterday's replacement and if successful would call me with an estimate for replacing the remaining coils and plugs. It has now been two hours since their morning test drive and I have still not heard back from them. I think they must have found something else.
 
boomyal said:
...would call me with an estimate ...
Click to expand...

Wait! Your dealer actually calls you?
(No matter what they say, I almost always have to be the one to call them. "Oh yeah, we finished it a couple of hours ago. We were just about to call you...")
 
joegr said:
Wait! Your dealer actually calls you?
(No matter what they say, I almost always have to be the one to call them. "Oh yeah, we finished it a couple of hours ago. We were just about to call you...")
Click to expand...

Same here. The best one was the service advisor who said he'd call Wednesday after the oil was changed. I called at 4:30 and he'd left for the day, but someone else said the job wasn't done yet. So the next day I called in the morning, and left messages. Finally got the guy around lunch time and he said I could come get it at around 2 or so. I went in at 4, he got a panicked look on his face and disappeared into the bays. 20 minutes later another service advisor came and told me that they were hearing a strange knock in the engine and needed to keep it overnight so the master techs could diagnose it in the morning. The rest of the story? He'd forgotten to get the car in for the service until very late the second day, and when he saw me he ran out to get the car. But they hadn't put new oil in, yet. He drove it and wrecked the motor....

Sorry, back to the topic, now.
 
joegr said:
"Oh yeah, we finished it a couple of hours ago. We were just about to call you..."
Click to expand...

Do we have the same dealer?

regiment1 said:
Same here. The best one was the service advisor who said he'd call Wednesday after the oil was changed. I called at 4:30 and he'd left for the day, but someone else said the job wasn't done yet. So the next day I called in the morning, and left messages. Finally got the guy around lunch time and he said I could come get it at around 2 or so. I went in at 4, he got a panicked look on his face and disappeared into the bays. 20 minutes later another service advisor came and told me that they were hearing a strange knock in the engine and needed to keep it overnight so the master techs could diagnose it in the morning. The rest of the story? He'd forgotten to get the car in for the service until very late the second day, and when he saw me he ran out to get the car. But they hadn't put new oil in, yet. He drove it and wrecked the motor....

Sorry, back to the topic, now.
Click to expand...

Ergo the noise!!!!!
 
Well Joe, you'll be happy to know (others pay attention) in the end, even though it was an arduous route to get a hard confirmation on the coil issue, it was the #4 coil that was causing the throttle body and TPS codes. Only in the end did it throw a misfire code. The service writer told me it was the #5 coil. When we picked up the car tonight, the paperwork said it was the......#4 cylinder.

After this lengthy diagnostic ordeal and all the 'safe mode' incidences, we ponied up and replaced the remaining 5 original coils and all the plugs. It was not cheap.

If I had been a less skeptical student and followed your advice, I am sure I could have done it all myself for a 3rd of the cost. Oh Well. At least we got to drive a new Lincoln MKC in the process of retrieving our LS. Man, that was like being in DisneyLand. It made the LS feel pretty vanilla when we hopped back into it.
 
I swear, the next time I have to do coils and plugs I will do a full in-depth w/ pics write-up, this RE&RE coils and plugs procedure is not that hard at all, it's rather easy, anyone can do it themselves! Don't need a lot of tools either. So much money to be saved by doing it yourself. It's the Dealers labour rate that will put you on Mac&Cheese for the remainder of the month.

There is already a basic write up in the "Tech Articles" section.
 
BigRigLS said:
I swear, the next time I have to do coils and plugs I will do a full in-depth w/ pics write-up, this RE&RE coils and plugs procedure is not that hard at all, it's rather easy, anyone can do it themselves! Don't need a lot of tools either. So much money to be saved by doing it yourself. It's the Dealers labour rate that will put you on Mac&Cheese for the remainder of the month.

There is already a basic write up in the "Tech Articles" section.
Click to expand...

All so true! If only I had had the tumerity to believe Joejr, I would have saved many days of worry and about $800 in dealer charges. That amount was the cost of the rental car and the replacement of 5 coils and 8 spark plugs.

Incidentally, you can buy MotorCraft coils for about $50 each. The dealer charged $86 each.
 
If you're a senior reading this, you may stop. I'll probably bore you to death. ;)

If you're a nubie as I am, well, this is a good thread to read, and this is why I chose
it to post a pic. As the OP, I also had about 55k miles on it when very subtle symptoms
began.
A little shake of the engine while waiting at a red light once in a while...not every time.
Sometimes right after start up in the morning as the idle settles down...a little shake.
Then the real problem began last week. Cruising at 45-50, and hit the throttle to pass,
engine jerks, and trans shifts up and down before everything settles back again after laying
off the gas a little.

Yup, those dreaded coils are acting up. Took a few hours on Wednesday, and replace everything.
Pic below shows how bad the plugs were, even after only 89000km(55k/miles) on the dial.

100_0437.jpg

So basically, if you have any doubts as to whether or not to replace all, you pretty much have your answer
with this picture, since all of my plugs were in pretty bad shape. The nicest looking plug was gapped at 0.049''
which is way off from recommended 0.039''.

The title says it all. Thanks for all the helpful advise senior members. :Beer

100_0437.jpg
 
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