Enough on this "Comprehensive"

[Bob Hubbard]

I wish somehow the politicians would get a grasp on just what that word means.
It means "understanding", or to understand.
It is undeniably attached to the word immigration as though it were one word.
I think the politicians are using that word in place of the word "amnesty".
The only "comprehensive immigration reform" is to send all these illegals packing , and get back to running this country as it should be run.
It is a dammed good thing I am not in the position to be calling the shots, because if I were, the country would be put under martial law, and the national guard called up to rid this country of ALL illegal immigrants, once and for all, then deal sensibly with the fall-out that would be sure to follow.
This business about "You can't round up all these people and deport them" is a bunch of bull.
This country can do anything it puts it's mind too.
We need to address the bleeding heart liberals who are hell bent on destroying this country.
They need to "comprehend" the fact that this illegal immigrant situation is eating away at the fabric of this country, and if we don't stand up and confront the situation with positive action, this country will fall too the level of a third world country.
With all these third world immigrants coming to this country, how in the hell could it turn out any differently if we don't do something to change it?
Bob.

 

[cammerfe]

Bob---

Although I believe that you and I are in general agreement regarding illegal immigration, you need to be careful with your thesis statement. 'Comprehensive' in this context means 'all-encompassing'. When you start wrong, the entire post goes wrong.

KS

 

[fossten]

It is a dammed good thing I am not in the position to be calling the shots, because if I were, the country would be put under martial law, and the national guard called up to rid this country of ALL illegal immigrants, once and for all, then deal sensibly with the fall-out that would be sure to follow.
Bob.

And you and I would be mortal enemies, Bob. Not much for liberty, are ya? And knowing your stance on guns, you'd probably spark a civil war in your blatant ignorance.

You're right - it is a good thing you're not calling the shots. You'd be a tyrant and a failure.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

And you and I would be mortal enemies, Bob. Not much for liberty, are ya? And knowing your stance on guns, you'd probably spark a civil war in your blatant ignorance.

You're right - it is a good thing you're not calling the shots. You'd be a tyrant and a failure.

Tyrant yes, Failure, Most definitely not.
Foss, do you not think any of your liberties have been affected by the illegal population i in this country?
Take a look at your latest tax bill.
I think it safe to say some of your liberties have been compromised by the overwhelming illegal population in this country.
If you doubt what I say, I suggest you take a look at what uncle sam has taken out of you paycheck in the form of income tax.
If you don't think your taxes are being used to support illegals, you really do have a problem.
You and every other tax payer are paying to house, educate, feed, and provide medical treatment to every one of them.
If you don't think your liberties are being forced to the short end of the stick, you need to get educated.
Bob.

 

[Frogman]

I must agree with Bob...

WTF good are "my" citizen's liberties if they are trampled over by illegals and all the concessions this Government is making for them? When an illegal has more rights than a US Citizen, we have problems, indeed. Granted, the constitution doesn't say "American Citizens", but rather "People"... While Illegals are indeed people, just like US Citizens, they are NOT US Citizens.

I still think my idea would work well: Place guard towers every 250 yards across the Southern border. Sell hunting tickets to every redneck in the country. $500 a head. Bring your own ammo. If someone is running South, DO NOT shoot them.
This would address the Mexican and South American (and even Muslim, to an extent) illegal immigration. Now if we could just figure out how to stem the influx of illegal Asians coming in through the Pacific ports, I think we'd be good.

I'm not even going to address the illegal immigration problems coming out of America's hat.

 

[Calabrio]

...why not just put up a couple of fences and make-

-establish a system so that employers could verify citizenship
-then punish those that violate the law with massive fines and possible jail.

Then, people won't be able to get in and others will self-deport.

But.... on this topic.
MACHETTE came out this weekend;
Machette movie is an anti-American, racist bloodbath.

 

[Frogman]

...why not just put up a couple of fences and make-

-establish a system so that employers could verify citizenship
-then punish those that violate the law with massive fines and possible jail.

Then, people won't be able to get in and others will self-deport.

This would work as well. I like my idea better due to the increased revenue, but the Employer sanction and verification system would work as well, me thinks.

 

[fossten]

Tyrant yes, Failure, Most definitely not.
Foss, do you not think any of your liberties have been affected by the illegal population i in this country?

Declaring martial law is not the answer - two wrongs don't make a right.

Take a look at your latest tax bill.

Completely irrelevant to my point.

I think it safe to say some of your liberties have been compromised by the overwhelming illegal population in this country.

Sure they have, but declaring martial law is open tyranny. You don't punish the law abiding citizens of this country in order to get rid of the illegals. That defeats the purpose.

If you doubt what I say, I suggest you take a look at what uncle sam has taken out of you paycheck in the form of income tax.

OK, now you're repeating yourself.

If you don't think your taxes are being used to support illegals, you really do have a problem.

That's a straw man; I never made this claim.

You and every other tax payer are paying to house, educate, feed, and provide medical treatment to every one of them.

So, how is declaring martial law going to fix that? Just stop giving them benefits and stop allowing employers to get away with paying cut wages.

If you don't think your liberties are being forced to the short end of the stick, you need to get educated.
Bob.

That's a pretty wild assumption to make considering the posts I make here regularly. It's also a non sequitur, as I've already stated that practicing open tyranny will only exacerbate the problem.

There are solutions to this problem that don't involve the shortsighted and myopic 'last resort' of martial law. The very idea is absurd.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

It is only absurd because you know it would work, and you can't allow your liberal bias to be dealt with in such a forceful manner.
We have pussyfooted around for years and years with this immigration situation, and nothing beneificial has come out of it.
It is long past due that the country take a tuff stance and end this craziness once and for all, and the proper and lawful way is to declare martial law, call up the guard, and get these people out of the country once and for all.
Sorry your liberal mindset doesn't agree with the solution but, realistically it is the one and only solution that WILL work.
Allowing them to stay, regardless of the reason, is only prolonging the agony for themselves as well as the law abiding citizens of this country.
They must leave if this country is to remain solvent.
They are an enormous drain on not only out financial being, but everything having to do with this country.
Our major cities have become nothing more but pockets of poverty, filled with illegals.
Foss, you have not lived long enough to know what a great country it use to be.
I was just a youngster when WWII ended, but I can remember the celebrations in the streets, and the sense of pride and love of country.
The country suffered through that war, but we came out on top.
We were stretched to the bone in fighting that war, but we never gave up.
It was pride in this great country that put us at the top.
Somehow in the years to follow, this country, seemed to have lost all sense of value.
Two wars later, and the vets returning home are not seen as heros as they were in the previous wars.
They were shunned and forgotten.
The country had changed, and the pride of America had all but disappeared.
Complacency took over, and the invasion of the illegal immigrants grew strong.
The country seemed to shrug it off.
Today those die hard Americans who still retain some sense of pride in our country are getting extremely angry over the immigration that is flooding our country.
Liberals seem to think it is alright for them to be here.
We who have lived through much better times in this country know what is at stake, and unfortunately it has come to the point where doing nothing can no longer be tolerated.
The majority of Americans will not allow any type of amnesty for these illegals, no matter how it is packaged.
The rule of law must take hold now, and it may well mean calling up the guard, and declaring martial law to finally end this immigration situation, once and for all.
Declaring martial law is not something that would be in place forever, just long enough to rid the country of the illegal population.
Under martial law, companies , and sanchuary cities could not hide the immigrants as they are doing presently.
Under martial law, racial profiling wouldn't be in the dictionary.
In short, there would be no barriers to the national guard performing their duty.
The ACLU, maldef, and the rest of the immigrant rights groups would have to sit back and let it happen.
They could do nothing in the case of martial law.
I belive it is the only position that the country can take to remove this illegal immigration albatross from around our neck.
Bob.

 

[SoonerLS]

Personally, I like Kinky Friedman's idea--you take a pot of money and tell the Mexican Army Generalissimos they can have it at the end of the year, but they lose $10,000 for every illegal who crosses the border. Of course, that would probably have worked better before the chickens came home to roost in Mexico over the last few years...

 

[fossten]

Stuff

Bob.

Bob, you need to get a clue. I'm not a liberal.

There are workable solutions for the problem without declaring martial law. If you do that, you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[04SCTLS]

I suppose having this fantasy rant makes you feel better.
Maybe we could run them out with tanks and infantry in a general
immigration blitzcrieg while the Star Spangled Banner with bombs bursting in air and other patriotic music played.
What a movie it would make
I sometimes picture it in my head.
The fact of the matter is that there are fewer illegals here now than there
were 10 years ago.
There aren't so many jobs for them either.
Not that it covers their total cost but illegals prop up Social Security and the federal treasury with money that they cannot claim.
Taxation without representation.
It's like talking about the cost of smoking to society without including the tax revenue.
It's a disingenuine picture.

The end of WW2 was an American high point that will never be repeated.

The war effort created a great leap in science and a huge industrial infrastructure.

Other than Pearl Harbor our homeland suffered almost no damage vs the carpet bombing
and destruction of the other guys.
After the war we owned 50% of world GNP while Europe and Japan were in ruins.
We were the Man.
We even rebuilt Europe and Japan into our allies to thwart the communists.

A fact of life is that things change.
Eventually all things end.
So adapt and move forward.
At least the illegals are almost all Christians.
They want to be like you, not kill you

 

[Bob Hubbard]

"At least the illegals are almost all Christians.
They want to be like you, not kill you "


You are absolutely wrong in that statement.
If you lived among them like we in SoCal do, you would know, and understand that they want us to BE LIKE THEM.
They expect us to speak their language, and live the low life existence as they do, and I say, that ain't gonna happen.
I do however see a light at the end of the tunnel.
Just this past week the national guard took up positions at the California, and Arizona borders with Mexico.
Lets hope it does some good to curtail the influx of these low lifes into our country.
Now to get rid of the ones already here..
Bob.

 

[cammerfe]

'Disingenuine'

Bob---
You've taken a page from the other thread, where there was a discussion regarding the cerebral processes necessary to the use of self-constructed words. Wow!!!
KS

 

[Calabrio]

Not that it covers their total cost but illegals prop up Social Security and the federal treasury with money that they cannot claim.

Actually, that's a myth. They really don't.
The vast majority work under the table.
The rest simply file state that they have 12 dependence when they fill out the W2 form so that there are virtually no withholdings.

The end of WW2 was an American high point that will never be repeated.

I disagree.
The international economic environment after WW2 did create an opportunity that enabled bad decisions and quasi-socialist policies that seemed like they were sustainable. Once the Asian and European markets were rebuilt (at an expense we largely incurred) the writing was on the wall. By the 70s it was evident that the systems put in place were unsustainable.

The war effort created a great leap in science and a huge industrial infrastructure.

No, WW2 didn't create a giant leap in science or infrastructure.
That largely came after the war during a period of governmental contraction.

At least the illegals are almost all Christians.
They want to be like you, not kill you

...your cynicism aside,
the porous borders, both in the North and South are enabling Islamic terrorists and South American communists to walk over the border and infiltrate the country.

Border security is serious- particularly going into what will likely be another dangerous, unstable, period in world history.

 

[04SCTLS]

Actually, that's a myth. They really don't.
The vast majority work under the table.
The rest simply file state that they have 12 dependence when they fill out the W2 form so that there are virtually no withholdings.


I disagree.
The international economic environment after WW2 did create an opportunity that enabled bad decisions and quasi-socialist policies that seemed like they were sustainable. Once the Asian and European markets were rebuilt (at an expense we largely incurred) the writing was on the wall. By the 70s it was evident that the systems put in place were unsustainable.


No, WW2 didn't create a giant leap in science or infrastructure.
That largely came after the war during a period of governmental contraction.


...your cynicism aside,
the porous borders, both in the North and South are enabling Islamic terrorists and South American communists to walk over the border and infiltrate the country.

Border security is serious- particularly going into what will likely be another dangerous, unstable, period in world history.

Everybody on a payroll pays SS and Medicare regardless of witholdings for federal or state tax.

The decisions after WW2 were sustainable at the time but since then circumstances changed.
We had a bit of a free lunch for a while with markets to ourselves so we could afford the at the time pensions and benefits.
Benefits were a low cost when they were introduced by industry to attract workers.

You seem to be ignoring the Manhattan Project.
That was an unprecidented government effort on a huge scale that private industry could not do that in 2 years produced incredible results.

After the war the building of the Interstate Highway System, another government effort not doable by private industry was the single greatest thing that made our prosperity.

The world has changed since the end of WW2.
Bob can celebrate how it was. but it's not coming back.

 

[fossten]

everybody on a payroll pays ss and medicare regardless of witholdings for federal or state tax.

false.

 

[Calabrio]

Everybody on a payroll pays SS and Medicare regardless of witholdings for federal or state tax.

About very little.
Probably about $700 a year.

Here's an example from someone from Oregon claiming 8 dependents.

http://www.examiner.com/politics-in...security-paid-by-illegal-immigrant-households

ANNUAL Taxable Pay: $20,800.00
Nontaxable Retirement Benefits 0.00
Nontaxable Cafeteria Benefits 0.00
FICA Withholding 1,289.60
Medicare Withholding 301.60
Federal Withholding 0.00
Oregon Withholding 417.00
Net Pay 18,791.80

Total taxes would be $718.60 annually.

That doesn't begin to cover what they usually cost the school system, public service, welfare, emergency rooms, ect....

And it also doesn't compensate for what would happen to tax revenues had the position gone to a citizen paying full taxes and the market cost of the job hadn't been driven down.

Fact is, illegals are a net-loss for the society.
They only provide political power to some political forces and cheap labor to some companies.

The decisions after WW2 were sustainable at the time but since then circumstances changed.

That's a contradiction.
They weren't sustainable, but they worked at that moment.
Short term situations aren't "sustainable."

You seem to be ignoring the Manhattan Project.

And you seem to be forgetting damn near everything else.

The world has changed since the end of WW2.
Bob can celebrate how it was. but it's not coming back.

Some of that is for the best, provided we move forward and learn from our mistakes. We haven't yet.

The period between WWI and WW2 is fascinating and explains so much of what happened afterward and what we are facing, but no one learns about it. It's not taught. And that was actually a conscious decision by academia.

 

[04SCTLS]

The Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) tax (pronounced /ˈfaɪkə/) is a United States payroll (or employment) tax[1] imposed by the federal government on both employees and employers to fund Social Security and Medicare[2] —federal programs that provide benefits for retirees, the disabled, and children of deceased workers. Social Security benefits include old-age, survivors, and disability insurance (OASDI); Medicare provides hospital insurance benefits. The amount that one pays in payroll taxes throughout one's working career is indirectly tied to the social security benefits annuity that one receives as a retiree.[citation needed] This has led some to claim that the payroll tax is not a tax because its collection is tied to a benefit.[3] The United States Supreme Court decided in Flemming v. Nestor (1960) that no one has an accrued property right to benefits from Social Security.

________________________________________________________________

Cal

FICA is for SS so your total would be
2008.20 on an income of 20,800.00
or about 10% with no fed or state inc tax.

 

[Calabrio]

Your right, but the number the share of FICA and medicare paid by the individual is only about 7.5%, not 10%. But it is matched by the employer...
Provided the undocumented employee is actually on the books.

But that cost isn't keeping s.s. afloat.
And that amount doesn't offset what they actually cost the feds and local governments. Not to mention the opportunity cost of having them working here, defrauding the system, driving down wages, and keep tax paying citizens from the job.

It's a loss for Americans.
The only "winners" are the political class looking to exploit them, the Mexican government that enjoys the money sent back and the "release valve" aspect of it that is preventing a revolution of some kind, and the employers who enjoy the low wages.

Arguably, you could say regular people enjoy lower costs for services too, but that's only confuses the conversation.

 

[04SCTLS]

Your right, but the number the share of FICA and medicare paid by the individual is only about 7.5%, not 10%. But it is matched by the employer...

As an employer with employees it's 7% plus 7% for a total of 14%
The employer has to contribute the 7% for any employee on his payroll
up to the current limit of $104,000 at which point deductions are capped.

I said it helped prop up SS not keep it afloat.

I'm not saying illegals are good for the country,
merely less bad than made out to be.