FISA court will rule warrantless surveillance legal

shagdrum

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Intelligence Court Rules Wiretapping Power Legal
By ERIC LICHTBLAU

WASHINGTON — A federal intelligence court, in a rare public opinion, issued a major ruling validating the power of the president and Congress to wiretap international phone calls and intercept e-mail messages without a specific court order, even when Americans’ private communications may be involved.

The court decision, made in August 2008 by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, came in an unclassified, redacted form.

The decision marks the first time since the disclosure of the National Security Agency’s warrantless eavesdropping program three years ago that an appellate court has addressed the constitutionality of the federal government’s wiretapping powers. In validating the government’s wide authority to collect foreign intelligence, it may offer legal credence to the Bush administration’s repeated assertions that the president has the power to act without specific court approval in ordering national security eavesdropping that may involve Americans.

The Aug. 22 appeals court decision upheld a secret ruling issued last year by the intelligence court that it oversees, known as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance, or FISA, court. In that initial opinion, the secret court found that Congress had acted within its authority in August 2007 when it passed a hotly debated law known as the Protect America Act, which gave the executive branch broad power to eavesdrop on international communications.

“The Department of Justice is pleased with this important ruling by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, which upholds the constitutionality of foreign intelligence surveillance conducted under the Protect America Act of 2007,” a Justice Department statement said.

The court ruling grew out of a previously undisclosed challenge from a telecommunications provider, which questioned the constitutional authority of the executive branch in ordering it to capture and turn over international communications without court approval.

The telecommunications company, which was not identified, refused to comply and instead challenged its legal basis under the 2007 law.

The FISA court rejected the telecommunication companies’ challenge. It found that the Protect America Act did not violate the Constitution because the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, contained an exception for the collection of foreign intelligence information.

The opinion did not directly rule on the legality of the once-secret operation authorized by President Bush between October 2001 and early 2007, which allowed the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on the international communications of Americans suspected of ties to terrorists. The disclosure of the program’s existence in The New York Times in December 2005 set off a national debate on wiretapping, privacy and the limits of presidential power. Critics charged that Mr. Bush had violated a 1978 law requiring that the government obtain a court order to listen in on Americans’ communications.

Still, the new ruling is expected to have broad implications for federal wiretapping law, because it is the first time that any appeals court has ruled on the constitutional question of the president’s wiretapping power.

It could also influence a number of court challenges now pending in federal court in California against telecommunications companies that took part in the N.S.A. program. Last year, Congress approved legal immunity against lawsuits for the telecommunications companies, but a federal judge has yet to decide whether the lawsuits should be thrown out.

The Protect America Act was a temporary, six-month measure that gave the president the authority to collect international phone calls and e-mail messages in large batches in search of possible terrorist connections without getting individual warrants. The international communications of Americans could be collected, so long as the target of the wiretapping operations was outside the United States.

The law drew strong objections from congressional Democrats, who blocked its renewal in early 2008 despite repeated warnings from President Bush that national security would be compromised. Ultimately, Congress approved a plan last June that authorized the same basic framework for international eavesdropping — along with long-sought immunity for the phone companies — but added some restrictions.

Barack Obama, then a United States senator, was highly critical of the presidential wiretapping power claimed by Mr. Bush, and threatened to filibuster the final bill. But he ultimately voted for it, angering some of his liberal supporters. His administration is expected to examine possible changes in wiretapping law and operations, a review that will probably be affected by the findings of the FISA appeals court.

The FISA court and the review court operate in secrecy. The appellate court has issued only one other major ruling in its 30-year history.
 
I don't even know where to start on this. The conclusions that the author of this sloppily-written article come to are irresponsible and misinformed.

The ruling does not say anything at all about the NSA warrantless wiretapping program that was in place from 2001 to 2006; specifically wiretaps involving persons in the United States. The only thing the ruling addresses is whether congress has the constitutional authority to empower the president to conduct warrantless wiretaps targeting people outside the United States.

More specifically, it addresses whether congress had the authority to enact and enforce the Protect America Act of 2007, which provides for surveillance of communications of "persons reasonably believed to be located outside the United States". The only time when "Americans' private communications may be involved" when it pertains to this law is if that American was "located outside the United States". The link to the ruling is just a scan, so I'm not going to transcribe all of it. See page 4 under "I THE STATUTORY FRAMEWORK". It explicitly uses the phrase "reasonably believed to be located outside the United States" several times.

In short, the ruling only says that Congress has the constitutional authority to give the government the power to spy on overseas calls. This has never been a particularly controversial topic.

What IS controversial are wiretaps involving United States citizens on United States soil, which we know have been going on and are in violation of FISA (Constitutionality notwithstanding). Again, the ruling does even address this issue. Therefore it is absolutely wrong to conclude that this ruling in any way validates the assertion that the president has any "inherent" authority to conduct wiretaps outside of statutory limits.

Furthermore, it's fair to say that we can imply from the ruling that if the congress has the constitutional authority to authorize warrantless wiretaps, it also has the authority to deny those powers. Indeed, the judges state in their conclusion:

"In that regard, we caution that our decision does not constitute an endorsement of broad-based, indiscriminate executive power."​


To reiterate, the ruling applies very specifically to a law which was enacted by congress in 2007, granting specific legal authority to the government to conduct warrantless wiretaps of people outside the US, something which is not at all controversial. It does NOT address executive branch claims of the authority to bypass statutes enacted by congress, or specifically FISA.
 
From what I understand that the 'phone company' in question is probably Qwest - they have fought this from the beginning.

If so, I would imagine that this will now be appealed up and into the 'public' federal court system -

Finally it can come out of the U.S.'s 'secret' court system and get to where it belongs - in front of the people.

The FISA court and the review court operate in secrecy. The appellate court has issued only one other major ruling in its 30-year history.

Just in general - how wrong is it that within the United States we have a 'secret' court system.

And, as Marcus said, and Shag and I discussed in the 'Unpatriot Act' thread, this doesn't even broach the subject that within the Unpatriot Act there are now clauses that allow the government to 'warrantlessly' wiretap domestic to domestic calls that have nothing to do with terrorism, but merely a perceived threat to 'life or limb'. And it also allows your ISP to just hand over your personal email accounts - on their own, if they think that there is something 'fishy' about them.

In both cases, these things can occur without you even knowing about them - there is no disclosure, as there would be if a warrant were issued.

It found that the Protect America Act did not violate the Constitution because the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, contained an exception for the collection of foreign intelligence information.

And I would love to find out where the 'secret' court found this new 4th amendment that contains the exception for the collection of foreign intelligence...

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

That's it - don't really see the 'exception'.

I don't really object to the government reviewing overseas calls (heck just for fun when I call my aunts overseas we always mention Osama, Al Queda, and Tony Blair in every conversation ;) ) - however, I do think that once the review takes place, and before the investigations go further there needs to be a pretty close following of the 4th amendment. And, never, ever can it be allowed to monitor domestic/domestic communications without a warrant.

And, if you look at the 'real' article that Shag links to (which is quite different than the post...)

The company argued that “by placing discretion entirely in the hands of the executive branch without prior judicial involvement, the procedures cede to that branch overly broad power that invites abuse,” the court wrote.

But, the court ruled, “this is little more than a lament about the risk that government officials will not operate in good faith.’

“That sort of risk exists even when a warrant is required,” it said.

I love how the 'right' ascertains (and even on this site in the Atlas Shrugged thread) that government is evil and corrupt, but will suddenly be all goodness and light when it comes to 'operating in good faith' concerning this subject...

There may be some risk of the government overstepping its bounds when a warrant is required - but at least the judicial branch is also involved at that point - as required by the constitution.
 
No suprise here; both of you are missing the point and repeating talking points that only distort mischaracterize this issue...
 
Gosh Shag, what is the point if it isn't that secret courts within the US are handing down decisions based on a different "Bill of Rights" then the one that was penned by Madison?

I obviously missed it....
 
Gosh Shag, what is the point if it isn't that secret courts within the US are handing down decisions based on a different "Bill of Rights" then the one that was penned by Madison?

I obviously missed it....

Continued obfuscation and misdirection...I would expect nothing less from you.:rolleyes:
 
Well, once again, Shag, you didn't answer my question - what is the point of the article you posted?

I think it is about secret courts allowing the congress to bestow on the executive branch exceedingly more power, while adding mysterious clauses to the 4th amendment. (Reader's Digest Condensed version...)
 
Treatment of America's Obvious Enemies

When I was studying Law (for my own edification) I learned about 'Star Chamber' and Kangaroo Court' proceedings. I therefore find myself torn. On one hand, I believe that it's better to let ten guilty go free than to wrongly convict an innocent man.

On the other hand, I also find myself very much in favor of 'black ops' strikes against those who are obviously terrorists. No court proceedings at all. Just a quick pop behind the ear, or a 700 grain slug at 2400 meters from a Barrett 50. And regarding intel, if a polite question doesn't do the trick, a waterboard or other sudden bright pain is the way to go about it. Use a 'Wrecking Crew'.
KS
 
Well, once again, Shag, you didn't answer my question - what is the point of the article you posted?

I think it is about secret courts allowing the congress to bestow on the executive branch exceedingly more power, while adding mysterious clauses to the 4th amendment. (Reader's Digest Condensed version...)


Your smart enough to figure it out...

I am not gonna waste time constructing a complex and well thought out post that you will inevitabley work to mischaracterize and distort so as to "disprove" and "discredit" it.

It is clear that you haven't even given it any serious thought as to how it may backup my argument. If you are really interested, go back and research my argument, and actually try to honestly understand it! :eek:

Then you can connect the dots.
 
So, shag, what part is your argument? I thought almost all of the original post was a 'cut and paste' and a little bit of re-working from an article in the New York Times - your link...

There really isn't any 'personal' opinion in the initial post, more of a reporting of facts...

What is your argument? Or, once again - what is the point of the piece you posted? Do you approve, disapprove, think that it doesn't go far enough?

I can't find any dots at all... ;)

Intelligence Court Rules Wiretapping Power Legal
By ERIC LICHTBLAU

WASHINGTON — A federal intelligence court, in a rare public opinion, issued a major ruling validating the power of the president and Congress to wiretap international phone calls and intercept e-mail messages without a specific court order, even when Americans’ private communications may be involved.

The court decision, made in August 2008 by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, came in an unclassified, redacted form.

The decision marks the first time since the disclosure of the National Security Agency’s warrantless eavesdropping program three years ago that an appellate court has addressed the constitutionality of the federal government’s wiretapping powers. In validating the government’s wide authority to collect foreign intelligence, it may offer legal credence to the Bush administration’s repeated assertions that the president has the power to act without specific court approval in ordering national security eavesdropping that may involve Americans.

The Aug. 22 appeals court decision upheld a secret ruling issued last year by the intelligence court that it oversees, known as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance, or FISA, court. In that initial opinion, the secret court found that Congress had acted within its authority in August 2007 when it passed a hotly debated law known as the Protect America Act, which gave the executive branch broad power to eavesdrop on international communications.

“The Department of Justice is pleased with this important ruling by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, which upholds the constitutionality of foreign intelligence surveillance conducted under the Protect America Act of 2007,” a Justice Department statement said.

The court ruling grew out of a previously undisclosed challenge from a telecommunications provider, which questioned the constitutional authority of the executive branch in ordering it to capture and turn over international communications without court approval.

The telecommunications company, which was not identified, refused to comply and instead challenged its legal basis under the 2007 law.

The FISA court rejected the telecommunication companies’ challenge. It found that the Protect America Act did not violate the Constitution because the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, contained an exception for the collection of foreign intelligence information.

The opinion did not directly rule on the legality of the once-secret operation authorized by President Bush between October 2001 and early 2007, which allowed the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on the international communications of Americans suspected of ties to terrorists. The disclosure of the program’s existence in The New York Times in December 2005 set off a national debate on wiretapping, privacy and the limits of presidential power. Critics charged that Mr. Bush had violated a 1978 law requiring that the government obtain a court order to listen in on Americans’ communications.

Still, the new ruling is expected to have broad implications for federal wiretapping law, because it is the first time that any appeals court has ruled on the constitutional question of the president’s wiretapping power.

It could also influence a number of court challenges now pending in federal court in California against telecommunications companies that took part in the N.S.A. program. Last year, Congress approved legal immunity against lawsuits for the telecommunications companies, but a federal judge has yet to decide whether the lawsuits should be thrown out.

The Protect America Act was a temporary, six-month measure that gave the president the authority to collect international phone calls and e-mail messages in large batches in search of possible terrorist connections without getting individual warrants. The international communications of Americans could be collected, so long as the target of the wiretapping operations was outside the United States.

The law drew strong objections from congressional Democrats, who blocked its renewal in early 2008 despite repeated warnings from President Bush that national security would be compromised. Ultimately, Congress approved a plan last June that authorized the same basic framework for international eavesdropping — along with long-sought immunity for the phone companies — but added some restrictions.

Barack Obama, then a United States senator, was highly critical of the presidential wiretapping power claimed by Mr. Bush, and threatened to filibuster the final bill. But he ultimately voted for it, angering some of his liberal supporters. His administration is expected to examine possible changes in wiretapping law and operations, a review that will probably be affected by the findings of the FISA appeals court.

The FISA court and the review court operate in secrecy. The appellate court has issued only one other major ruling in its 30-year history.
 
So, shag, what part is your argument? I thought almost all of the original post was a 'cut and paste' and a little bit of re-working from an article in the New York Times - your link...

There really isn't any 'personal' opinion in the initial post, more of a reporting of facts...

What is your argument? Or, once again - what is the point of the piece you posted? Do you approve, disapprove, think that it doesn't go far enough?

I can't find any dots at all... ;)

Yes....and I have never discussed this subject ad nausseum in other threads on this forum (including threads that you participated in), have I. ;)
 
If we are arguing ad nausseum (ahhh latin again - I am wiggling as I type...)

So, I still don't understand why you posted this tidbit. Is it to say - "see I am right - the 'secret' court agrees with me"?
 
Fox is just lonely and needs somebody to talk to. She's not interested in learning anything.

Anybody who would send "nudes" of herself to perfect strangers clearly needs a few friends.
 

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