Fossten, please repost

[barry2952]

Fossten,

Please repost your thread on evolution. Could you please sumerize it for us non-religious types.

Just so you know, I'm certainly not anti-religion, I just have no faith. I have an outlook on faith that is skewed by personal experiences. I went to a military school in the late '60s. There were under 200 cadets. There were 7 Jews and 7 Blacks enrolled. The Blacks had a Baptist ceremony while the rest of the school went to a "Christian" service conducted in the mess hall on Sunday.

We conducted the Jewish services in one of the classrooms on Saturday morning during parade practice. I was Bar-Mitzvahed at 13 strictly for my European-heritage grandparent's sake. This was 40 years ago and the memory of the Holocost was very fresh in their minds. My parents had little interest in religion. My father had to learn his part of my Bar-Mitzvah service phoenetically because he couldn't be bothered to learn the Hebrew. I digress.

Since we didn't have anything to do on Sunday I usually walked off some of my penalty tours. My path around the 90-foot square took me by the mess hall where I clearly heard the "preacher" condemn the Jews for killing Christ. Granted, this was the South and I was a suburban teenage problem child, but I didn't deserve what came next.

That night I was tied to my bed while every horrible thing was shouted at me by my classmates. Most often I heard "Christ Killer" ring in my ears as crosses were cut into the backs of my hands with serated butter knives.

Nothing was done, no one was punished, I was changed. I lost all faith.

 

[Calabrio]

I agree with Barry, that was certainly an interesting post. The de-evolution of the thread that followed is another matter, but the argument presented was certainly interesting.

And Barry, I'm sorryto hear your experience. I wouldn't challenge your decision to turn away from religion, I would like to mention that what you experienced wasn't the result of people actually following the teachings of the bible. They were angry people who bastardized a philosphy in order to exercise evil and violence.

If it is any consolation, the Christian church, the Pope, and the Christian culture itself has apologized for any past display of that kind of behavior. It has since been recognized that there is no better friend of the Jewish religion than religious Christians, and vice versa, and an alignment has taken place.

 

[barry2952]

Please don't get me wrong. I harbor no resentment or ill will toward any of those people. I got even with most of them by year end. I was 6'5" and 165 pounds when I got there and weighed 225 when I left. Nobody was :q:q:q:qing with me by the time I got out. I never went back. I finished High School in the public sector.

I recognize and acknowledge the huge strides that have been made at the organizational level of the various churches but there has been little changed in the pews. There is still a significant level of anti-Sematism in this country and especially in Europe. I personally don't understand it. Anyone out there ever been "Jewed" by a Jew? The term has become so engrained in the venacular that people say it without thinking. Most people are horribly embarrassed when I bring their statement to their attention. They always apologize and tell me one of their best friends is Jewish. That always seems to make them feel better.

I wish I had faith. It would be a comfort.

 

[fossten]

Barry, my great-grandfather was a Jewish immigrant. It really sucks to hear your story. I was raised in a Baptist home and never dealt with the kind of stuff you went through. I'd be glad to discuss this topic with ya tho.

As far as reposting the evolution thread, I'll work on it.

 

[barry2952]

Fossten, is that your name? I'm more comfortable discussing things with people when I know their name.

OK, lets discusss why there is still growing anti-Sematism in the world today. Where is the threat? What basis is there to hate a Jew?

I don't believe that I've ever left anyone with the impression that they've been screwed because I'm a Jew. Actually, I'm not. My heritage is Jewish. I'm a poor example. So please, explain to me why I am hated because of my heritage.

I think we've been model immigrants, wouldn't you agree? Do we not aspire to the same American Dream? Have we not contributed to society on a number of fronts? Why are we still reviled in some people's minds?

 

[mespock]

That night I was tied to my bed while every horrible thing was shouted at me by my classmates. Most often I heard "Christ Killer" ring in my ears as crosses were cut into the backs of my hands with serated butter knives.

Nothing was done, no one was punished, I was changed. I lost all faith.

Genisis was written by a Jew... well he would lead the people almost to the place where Judism took it's roots..

But it was their scripture that christians like to quote....

Barry, I believe that God is the judge of all.. not a book that get's Misinterpreted.

I am a Christian an am embarrassed that those calling themselves Chirstians would do something like that.. How does that promote the ways of Christ.. Also where does it show in the Christian Bible that followers of Christ would treat people like that..

I didn't do that to you Barry but I feel guilty that it happend to you and to any person of any other faith...

Salvation is in the hads of God not men...

Also do you know that Hitler had strong Christian faith

Hitler's religious beliefs and fanaticism (quotes from Mein Kampf)
Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country. This text presents selected quotes from the infamous anti-Semite himself.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

 

[Calabrio]

OK, lets discusss why there is still growing anti-Sematism in the world today. Where is the threat? What basis is there to hate a Jew?...So please, explain to me why I am hated because of my heritage.

Ignorance, scapegoatism, historic discrimination. None valid. And while it's not unique for an ethnicity to deal with a level of discrimination, I say, confidently, that there is no more persecutated population in the world than the Jewish.

I think we've been model immigrants, wouldn't you agree? Do we not aspire to the same American Dream? Have we not contributed to society on a number of fronts? Why are we still reviled in some people's minds?

I think the problems of discrimination and hostility faced by Jews in America is really insignificant when compared to the problems faced by the Jewish around the world. Some older American's may still hold onto racist hostility directed to the Jewish, but subsequent generations have appeared to abandoned that thinking.

The rest of the world, that's an entirely different story. Extremely hostile, and there is no rational, defendable explanation for it.

 

[fossten]

Fossten, is that your name? I'm more comfortable discussing things with people when I know their name.

OK, lets discusss why there is still growing anti-Sematism in the world today. Where is the threat? What basis is there to hate a Jew?

I don't believe that I've ever left anyone with the impression that they've been screwed because I'm a Jew. Actually, I'm not. My heritage is Jewish. I'm a poor example. So please, explain to me why I am hated because of my heritage.

I think we've been model immigrants, wouldn't you agree? Do we not aspire to the same American Dream? Have we not contributed to society on a number of fronts? Why are we still reviled in some people's minds?

My real name is David.

I totally agree with you. I have absolutely nothing against Jews, although I do question some of the work of the Mossad.

The reality may be more supernatural than any of you want to realize. The Jews are still God's chosen people, and in the Bible, prophecy states that He will save the Jews in the last days of the Tribulation. Satan knows this, and he tries to foster as much hatred of the Jews as possible, since he hates the Jews. In WWII the Jews were heavily wiped out in the concentration camps.

As far as racism, take your pick as to the reasoning. Jews or any other race like blacks are hated because this hatred is taught to them as children.

 

[barry2952]

My real name is David. I totally agree with you. I have absolutely nothing against Jews, although I do question some of the work of the Mossad.

David,

Herein lies part of the problem. Jews around the world are reviled because of what the Israelis do. Please don't confuse being Israeli with being Jewish. There are Arab Israelis, too. It is as much their homeland as anyone else.

You don't have to be Jewish to live in Israel although it is thought of as the Jewish homeland. I have about as little in common with Israelis as I do with Jewish relatives in South Africa.

Judiasm is a religion and Israeli is a nationality. If that were clearly established, much of the acrimony would go away.

The Mossad is another story. I don't agree with some of the CIAs actions either but we look the other way because both agencies drive is national security.

P.S. I wouldn't, even for a moment, suspect Bryan or Joey of dropping your posts. If they haven't done it to me, they would never do it to you.

 

[mach8]

Look around the world, look through history, look at your town.

People are tribal. It begins with those who are not of your family. Don't trust them, put your family first. When groups evolve then its, put your tribe first, then your village first, then your territory first, then your country first.

The American Civil War was a major turning in the creation of the United States of America. Before that war people indentified with their state, not as americans. Progess is expanding your "family".

Now look at areas and times where people identify with their locality, tribe. When you have a group living in that area that does not share this identity they become the stranger, people to be feared, to be suspected, to be mistrusted. When they worship strange gods in odd ways they are even more suspect.

Now look at the history of the jew in the world. They are homeless drifters, forced to live in their own sections of towns, reinforcing their oddness. They don't attend church, this puts them apart and makes them an opponent of the church/state. No place is perfect, no ruler able to please everyone, they seek shelter. It's the fault of the stranger.......................


Those in our society/world who push diversity seek to divide us, make us more primitive/tribal. Look at India, one of the most diverse countries in the world, do we all want to live like that?

 

[fossten]

David,

Herein lies part of the problem. Jews around the world are reviled because of what the Israelis do. Please don't confuse being Israeli with being Jewish. There are Arab Israelis, too. It is as much their homeland as anyone else.

You don't have to be Jewish to live in Israel although it is thought of as the Jewish homeland. I have about as little in common with Israelis as I do with Jewish relatives in South Africa.

Judiasm is a religion and Israeli is a nationality. If that were clearly established, much of the acrimony would go away.

The Mossad is another story. I don't agree with some of the CIAs actions either but we look the other way because both agencies drive is national security.

P.S. I wouldn't, even for a moment, suspect Bryan or Joey of dropping your posts. If they haven't done it to me, they would never do it to you.

Good point. To me it doesn't matter what a person's heritage is; each and every person has choices about how to live one's life. I only make character judgments based upon what I see in individual behavior.

 

[mach8]

David,

Herein lies part of the problem. Jews around the world are reviled because of what the Israelis do. Please don't confuse being Israeli with being Jewish. There are Arab Israelis, too. It is as much their homeland as anyone else.

You don't have to be Jewish to live in Israel although it is thought of as the Jewish homeland. I have about as little in common with Israelis as I do with Jewish relatives in South Africa.

Judiasm is a religion and Israeli is a nationality. If that were clearly established, much of the acrimony would go away.

The Mossad is another story. I don't agree with some of the CIAs actions either but we look the other way because both agencies drive is national security.

P.S. I wouldn't, even for a moment, suspect Bryan or Joey of dropping your posts. If they haven't done it to me, they would never do it to you.

That is BS.

Jews have been reviled before the state of Israel was recreated and will continue to be reviled long after if the state of Israel ceases to exist.

Muslems have been a boil on the world for thousands of years and it will continue, Israel or no Israel.

Perhaps god is still playing games? Remember the tale of Job.

 

[mespock]

Muslems have been a boil on the world for thousands of years and it will continue, Israel or no Israel.

Perhaps god is still playing games? Remember the tale of Job.

This is were it get's difficult - when we generalize Muslems as being the source of trouble...

If you were Muslim living in Yugoslavia and the surrounding countries you were being exterminated by Christians..

Yes this battle between Christians and Muslims goes back a thousand years with the advances of the Turks on Constantinople and the crusades, but it doesn't make it right...

Each group wanted to eradicate each other. Now we have extremist on each side still wanting to keep up that fight..

We live in a different world. Both sides need to learn that..

I have lived with Muslim people they respected my faith in Christ and asked questions about it, as I did them. But they didn't hate me for being a Christian.

We need to learn to accept differences and we need to accept if we are Christian, Jewish, or Muslim that the base of our religions goes back to the same beginning. It's where the branches of the religion tree break off into different directions that we have our differences. And going back to the beginning if we accept the story of the Garden of Eden. God, Jehovah, Allah, gave man a choice... We chose wrong at that point and from there more choices became our biggest burden...

 

[mach8]

This is were it get's difficult - when we generalize Muslems as being the source of trouble...

If you were Muslim living in Yugoslavia and the surrounding countries you were being exterminated by Christians..

Unfortunately the muslims, as a whole, are the source of many troubles around the world.

Like the rest of us they also must live with the results of their past. The christians in that area were ravaged by the muslims in the past. What comes around goes around and around and around..................

It's currently PC to whine about the poor muslims and damage to mosques while ignoring the destruction of churches and temples which will only further more troubles in the future. However the christians and jews do not state they are out to convert or kill infidels as a matter of policy which also makes the muslims look bad in the world arena.

But the relevant question is what's their beef with the jews?

I think it's a displacement thing. The muslims are the "new kids on the block" and were modeled upon both the existing jewish and christian faiths. To get a toe hold and thrive they must make a place for themselves, differentiate themselves, and take territory from the existing establisnment, the infidels.

 

[mespock]

But we can't live an eye for an eye if we want to go forward.

Fend off terrorist yes, protect ourselves yes, attack terrorist base like we did in Afghanistan yes...

But if we try to control or occupy Arab countries because they have Muslim faith we will run in to terrorist as they try to remove us from their land. And they will attack us as they feel we have invaded them.

I feel they will stop attacking us once we leave them alone. You may not agree with this but that is my opinion.

And as long as we continue to protect Israel and support Israel in whatever they want to do then we will get attacked.

 

[mach8]

...... as long as we continue to protect Israel and support Israel in whatever they want to do then we will get attacked.

Israel is not part of the problem. The muslims in Pakistan, Indonesia, the Phillipines, and elsewhere will continue to agitate regardless if Israel exist or not.
We are not a target because we support Israel, we are not regarded as the great satan because we support Israel. Cease to protect and support those who watch your back and soon no one will want to.

Which has nothing to do with why those of hebrew decent have always made whipping boys throughout the ages.

 

[barry2952]

Israel is not part of the problem.

I disagree. It's the British the Arabs should be angry with. They're the ones that stuck the stick in the bee hive.

I think the Israelis have done a marvelous job of succeeding in the face of extreme division within their ranks. Their political situation is more polar than ours. I think they have acted with great restraint.

Getting back to my question. Why are Jews reviled the world over? We're the doctors and bankers and teachers and electricians and plumbers and attorneys. We are mostly in service businesses. What's to hate?

Has anyone ever been affected by a quota system where a Jew got preferential treatment, for being Jewish?

A couple of interesting stories about growing up Jewish in Detroit in the '50s. The Crystal Pool on the border of Detroit and Oak Park had a sign that read No Negros-No Jews. Siani Hospital, in Detroit, was created because Jewish doctors were not allowed to work in Christian hospitals.

My father graduated from the University of Michigan with a degree in advertising in 1950. No ad agency in Detroit hired Jews so my father would read the birth announcements every morning and show up at the home of new parents a week later offering to take baby pictures.

I personally haven't suffered much anti-Sematism in my adult life. I've probably suffered more episodes of racism because I am white. I've often called myself a double minority. I'm a 6'5" Jew.

 

[Vitas]

The Jews are still God's chosen people, and in the Bible, prophecy states that He will save the Jews in the last days of the Tribulation.

That kind of theory that one group of human beings (whether in God's eyes, or otherwise) is better than, or more favored, over others, is what causes wars.

I would like to see the Trust document that says that, validated by being filed at a Registry of Deeds.

 

[mach8]

Of course the Bible contains statements like that. It is basically a book written from jewish oral traditions. But if you subscribe to the Bible as the word of god what's to be upset about? don't be upset with the jews, be upset with god!

And speaking of god, what problems he's(?) got! Creates a being, in his own image, and it can't follow instructions! Has to kick them out of his garden, they still don't get the idea. Try's the flood thing, no luck there either. Then the upitty beings start building a tower to reach him! Babel time. Goes through a buch of junk with his "chosen people" who go worshiping idols at the drop of a hat. Then to show he's an upright being himself he sends his son down to spread the word and to focus worship on his father as well as squaring some old sins. But when the drama goes down a new relgion pops up focused on worshiping the son! Then this opportunist sees a good thing and sampling (using current slang) the current religions starts a third religion that turns the holy land into a war zone, again. What's a god to do? It's better than DALLAS!

 

[Vitas]

...What's a god to do? It's better than DALLAS!

Too much d-r-a-m-a. -g-