GM going bankrupt?
- Thread starter 95ltc
- Start date
Nakoa
Well-Known LVC Member
sell to another company. its sad theyre cutting something like 30,000 jobs.
Sixlitre
Active LVC Member
Much as I dislike GM engineering
I'm not ready to drive Niponese or Korean or Chinese built vehicles. Damned sad thing when corporate mismanagement, bad product choices, poor engineering and other factors effect an otherwise innocent work force.
30,000 jobs good paying, unionized jobs !
Sixlitre
I'm not ready to drive Niponese or Korean or Chinese built vehicles. Damned sad thing when corporate mismanagement, bad product choices, poor engineering and other factors effect an otherwise innocent work force.
30,000 jobs good paying, unionized jobs !
Sixlitre
GM will not declare bankruptcy. Contrary to what has been said in the media GM is not insolvent, simply somewhat fiscally unstable. The closures are phased in over time and will give the worlds largest automaker a more stable footing on which to fight Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. All GM needs is a little better build quality, and some better product developement, to be as strong in the new world market as the big T. GM is headed that way now and and extra 7 billion a year will help them on their way.
I don't think junkauto inc. (Hyundai,Kia,etc.) will ever pose a real threat.
Given that they are offering what amounts to two and a half years of notice to those that will lose there jobs there is plenty of time to plan. The UAW is fully capable of placing every one of those workers elswhere if those workers are willing to move. 30000 is a relatively small number compared to the total number of people employed by GM.
If I was given two weeks notice before a layoff it was a miracle.
I don't think junkauto inc. (Hyundai,Kia,etc.) will ever pose a real threat.
Given that they are offering what amounts to two and a half years of notice to those that will lose there jobs there is plenty of time to plan. The UAW is fully capable of placing every one of those workers elswhere if those workers are willing to move. 30000 is a relatively small number compared to the total number of people employed by GM.
If I was given two weeks notice before a layoff it was a miracle.
fedexjetmx
New LVC Member
GM plant closings
Yea it really sucks that they tell them just before the holidays. (Oklahoma City palnt closure early 2006).
I'm gonna get on a soap box now, I hope I dont step on anyones toes.
My personal belief is that the blame not only belongs in the lap of the 7+digit income people driving the train wreck but also the blue collar workforce, who as I understand it get free medical insurance with just a co-pay. There needs to be some give from both ends. Unfortunately upper managment usually wins even in a "no win" situation.
Just my 2cents
Yea it really sucks that they tell them just before the holidays. (Oklahoma City palnt closure early 2006).
I'm gonna get on a soap box now, I hope I dont step on anyones toes.
My personal belief is that the blame not only belongs in the lap of the 7+digit income people driving the train wreck but also the blue collar workforce, who as I understand it get free medical insurance with just a co-pay. There needs to be some give from both ends. Unfortunately upper managment usually wins even in a "no win" situation.
Just my 2cents
2001LS8Sport
Dedicated LVC Member
Sandlot said:
Oh yes they will....and Ford is right behind them! Don't think for a second that won't happen. With GM, it's more likely they will sell to Toyota ala Daimler/Chrysler. If you look, there is a statement in one of the articles on the latest GM closings actually stating they have been looking for a buyer.
I'm here to tell you that both Ford and GM would welcome a bankruptcy. They absolutely need to bankrupt that pension plan. It's killing them. Just because they go BK doesn't mean the end of the company by any means. You watch and listen and see if I'm not right.
Redwingvksm
Well-Known LVC Member
GM will never go under.
Honestly - this is awsome for GM. This will allow them to dump alot of their healthcare problems/over paid people (Including UAW workers)/white collar/etc... and make they a more trim, efficent running company.
And yes, I do have family members that are going to be given the pink slip. This does hurt me - but the UAW made it this was. IMHO - i'd be better if they just vanish...
-Matt
Honestly - this is awsome for GM. This will allow them to dump alot of their healthcare problems/over paid people (Including UAW workers)/white collar/etc... and make they a more trim, efficent running company.
And yes, I do have family members that are going to be given the pink slip. This does hurt me - but the UAW made it this was. IMHO - i'd be better if they just vanish...
-Matt
JC1994
Dedicated LVC Member
sounds like a jealous union hating SCAB to me. when all the good paying jobs are gone people like you living off minimum wage can FINALLY shut the hell up.
dfisher1
LVC Member
Gm bankruptcy?
I'm not surprised that GM are in trouble. Looking at the shoddy build quality on ALL its current model ranges its not surprising that they are in trouble. Anyway, a company that is as big as GM is likely to get into trouble as such a large firm cannot be managed as effectively as a small firm.
GM - IMPROVE YOUR RUBBISH BUILD QUALITY! EVEN KIA & HYUNDAI BUILD MORE SOLID CARS AT A FRACTION OF THE PRICE
I'm not surprised that GM are in trouble. Looking at the shoddy build quality on ALL its current model ranges its not surprising that they are in trouble. Anyway, a company that is as big as GM is likely to get into trouble as such a large firm cannot be managed as effectively as a small firm.
GM - IMPROVE YOUR RUBBISH BUILD QUALITY! EVEN KIA & HYUNDAI BUILD MORE SOLID CARS AT A FRACTION OF THE PRICE
2001LS8Sport
Dedicated LVC Member
Redwingvksm said:
Going bankrupt and going under are not the same things. But I'm betting both Ford and GM go bankrupt. That pension plan is killing them.
Watch and see if Toyota doens't buy at least a huge share of GM. After they go BK of course...Toyota isn't about to take on those burdens and headaches.
JC1994
Dedicated LVC Member
Why is the blame always laid at the blue collar workers feet? when all the CEO's make millions? they are the reason for this. they have stolen all the money. I get tired of " It's the greedy workers fault the company is broke "
BULLSH!T!!!!!!!
BULLSH!T!!!!!!!
mespock
Marxists - Socialists
The Government will not let GM go under. Look what they did with Chrysler back in the early 80's.
The only company they let die was AMC.. You know the makers of the Pacer. LOL..
The only company they let die was AMC.. You know the makers of the Pacer. LOL..
2001LS8Sport
Dedicated LVC Member
mespock said:
Okay mespock...and I'm not trying to flame you here, but I'm going to educate you a bit....and all the others that think the government bailed out Chrysler.
The U.S Governement DID NOT lend Chrysler ONE RED CENT!!!!! NOT ONE!!! That is what everyone believes...but is NOT the case. What the goverment did was GUARANTEE repayment of loans made to Chrysler from private lenders. In return for those guarantees, they made Chrylser make some huge concessions...including the selling of their corporate aircraft and their tank division. (yes...they built military tanks and it was their only profitable division...and they made them sell it off) Lee Iococca also cut his salary to $1 a year. They also made Chrysler put up all their assets as collateral...which were substantial and even at fire sale prices, it more than covered the guarantee amount. So in reality, the government (and the taxpayer) had ZERO risk. And of course, they paid every dime back early.
This arrangement is no different than someone getting a VA loan for a home. The VA DOES NOT lend the money to the veteran for his home. The lender he or she uses does. All the VA does is guarantee a small portion of the loan in case of default...usually $36,000.
Redwingvksm
Well-Known LVC Member
JC1994 said:
I knew that comment would of get people like you to come out of the wood work.
1. I am a mechanic and make a pretty good living off of it.
2. As I said - I have family and friends that are going to be loosing their jobs
I'm not joyus for them loosing their jobs - but when you are asking WAY too much for that job - they just burned themselves.
Personally I think they should get nothing above 14/hour. They can pay for Medical and only what they put forth for their pension - the company will match up to a certian amonunt/percentage.
I just think they asked for too much too soon. I'm glad this is getting done so they can get their heads out of their asses and realise they are no better than anyone else out there in the workforce...
(Fawk spelling btw...
)Mark9
LVC Member
GM will be closing 12 plants, not just 9. And they ARE in deep doodoo financially. Their bonds have been downgraded to Junk status now by all the Bond rating services - a real problem for not only GM as a business, but to the millions of GM employees that depend on their value for retirement payouts from the company.
GM spun off most of their parts manufacturing by setting up Delphi; but the scheme to shed a portion of their financial problems seems not to have worked, as they may wind up stuck with a large portion of the Delphi financial problems (to many contracts with the GM name still on them). Problems from the pension and benefit programs that are grossly underfunded. The courts today (Nov 29) approved Delphi's filing for bancrupcy - meaning they will now be able to ignore any existing union contract and go ahead with implementing a number of serious cost cutting measures: such as cutting the average $27 per hour pay rate to levels in the $10 to $12 per hour range early in 2006. Pensions will be reduced and employees will have to contribute substantially more towards their medical costs. GM seems to be getting ready to do just about the same when their turn comes. GM has already had prelim talks with the UAW along those lines, so it should be no surprise.
GM lost close to $6 BILLION dollars in cold hard cash in the first nine months of this year, alone. Right now (end of the third quarter) they had a grand total of just over $15 billion dollars left. It doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that at some point in the not to distant future, GM will run out of cash and be knocking on the door of the banckrupcy court. (and Ford could be right behind them!!).
The government WILL most assuredly stand by and let GM be broken up and sold off. The U.S. auto industry has had hundreds -YES I SAID HUNDREDS - of auto companies that went by the way side exactly as GM could well be doing. They'll try to cut costs as much as they can through getting the UAW to reduce wages down to somewhere in the $12 per hour level, they already have said that benefits will be reduced drastically at the next negotiation, the continuing wage coverage for closed or converting plants will have to go, and on and on.
Meanwhile Toyota is already annoucing their plans for when they become the world's largest auto manufacturer - NEXT YEAR!! A title that GM held for such a loooong time.
Ford is better off - but not by much. The Ford Family (that holds controlling volting rights) brought Bill Ford in to try to straighten the company out. Don't know how he'll do this as the guys that he recently picked to head the truly important slots seem to be mostly "yes" men with a minimal sucess effort on their records. Basically, from most reports, Bill doesn't know much at all of running a truly large business - as he said, he'd rather drive around in his ThunderBird with the top down. Can't blame him, but that won't turn the company around.
Bottom line is that both GM and Ford made promises to their employees (blue clollar and whte) regarding wages, benefits, and pensions based on the apple pie days when they could, and did, sell anything they produced at prices providing fat returns. Can't be done now - but the promises they made are still there and the money keeps rolling out, just like in the good old days!!
The sad part is that if we all stand back and take a GOOD look, we can easily see that America keeps losing their manufacturing jobs to overseas companies. The GM and Ford declines are just part of this march to becoming a shadow of itself. Manufacturing was once America's great strength - today we have less than 12% of the manufacturing facilities that we once had.
At this rate we'll all be selling hamburgers to each other in the not to distant future!!!
"Will you have fries with that burger?" (just practicing...)
Sounds like I'm quite negative..YES!! I have an eleven year old son that would like to have a chance at having a worthwhile career in this country.. Hard to do when we ship millions of the best jobs overseas and give large checks back to millionaires (along with a few hundred bucks to us suckers). And to cap it off, today the local paper notes that our government is getting ready to reduce retirement benefits drastically for my son when he gets old.
..
GM spun off most of their parts manufacturing by setting up Delphi; but the scheme to shed a portion of their financial problems seems not to have worked, as they may wind up stuck with a large portion of the Delphi financial problems (to many contracts with the GM name still on them). Problems from the pension and benefit programs that are grossly underfunded. The courts today (Nov 29) approved Delphi's filing for bancrupcy - meaning they will now be able to ignore any existing union contract and go ahead with implementing a number of serious cost cutting measures: such as cutting the average $27 per hour pay rate to levels in the $10 to $12 per hour range early in 2006. Pensions will be reduced and employees will have to contribute substantially more towards their medical costs. GM seems to be getting ready to do just about the same when their turn comes. GM has already had prelim talks with the UAW along those lines, so it should be no surprise.
GM lost close to $6 BILLION dollars in cold hard cash in the first nine months of this year, alone. Right now (end of the third quarter) they had a grand total of just over $15 billion dollars left. It doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that at some point in the not to distant future, GM will run out of cash and be knocking on the door of the banckrupcy court. (and Ford could be right behind them!!).
The government WILL most assuredly stand by and let GM be broken up and sold off. The U.S. auto industry has had hundreds -YES I SAID HUNDREDS - of auto companies that went by the way side exactly as GM could well be doing. They'll try to cut costs as much as they can through getting the UAW to reduce wages down to somewhere in the $12 per hour level, they already have said that benefits will be reduced drastically at the next negotiation, the continuing wage coverage for closed or converting plants will have to go, and on and on.
Meanwhile Toyota is already annoucing their plans for when they become the world's largest auto manufacturer - NEXT YEAR!! A title that GM held for such a loooong time.
Ford is better off - but not by much. The Ford Family (that holds controlling volting rights) brought Bill Ford in to try to straighten the company out. Don't know how he'll do this as the guys that he recently picked to head the truly important slots seem to be mostly "yes" men with a minimal sucess effort on their records. Basically, from most reports, Bill doesn't know much at all of running a truly large business - as he said, he'd rather drive around in his ThunderBird with the top down. Can't blame him, but that won't turn the company around.
Bottom line is that both GM and Ford made promises to their employees (blue clollar and whte) regarding wages, benefits, and pensions based on the apple pie days when they could, and did, sell anything they produced at prices providing fat returns. Can't be done now - but the promises they made are still there and the money keeps rolling out, just like in the good old days!!
The sad part is that if we all stand back and take a GOOD look, we can easily see that America keeps losing their manufacturing jobs to overseas companies. The GM and Ford declines are just part of this march to becoming a shadow of itself. Manufacturing was once America's great strength - today we have less than 12% of the manufacturing facilities that we once had.
At this rate we'll all be selling hamburgers to each other in the not to distant future!!!
"Will you have fries with that burger?" (just practicing...)
Sounds like I'm quite negative..YES!! I have an eleven year old son that would like to have a chance at having a worthwhile career in this country.. Hard to do when we ship millions of the best jobs overseas and give large checks back to millionaires (along with a few hundred bucks to us suckers). And to cap it off, today the local paper notes that our government is getting ready to reduce retirement benefits drastically for my son when he gets old.
..
2001LS8Sport
Dedicated LVC Member
Good post Mark9. Right on target. I also see where Bill Ford just told his people that if they weren't on board and ready to support his new price cutting policies a 100%, then they should leave the company.
I'm like you...I don't know if he has the experience and expertise to run that company in these difficult times. But he has the pedigree and should know where to get the help he needs!
I'm like you...I don't know if he has the experience and expertise to run that company in these difficult times. But he has the pedigree and should know where to get the help he needs!
the_ancient
LVC Member
There is major problems for all companies in the USA
Competition for good CEO's have driven their wages up to 400X the average worker where it use to be 25X
the UAW has pushed and Pushed for excessive wages, and non-performace based wages. $25/hr to push a button is excessive pay, sorry
those 2 are what is causing GM problems
However Manufacturing downturnon the whole is not due to american wages like people think. China is going to Surpass us in Oil/Gas use very soon, they currently have more Cell Phone Users than we do in america. Those people are not making a dollar a day like some people think. Production costs increase at a rate of 14% year in china, and China is buying ALOT of US mined ore...
No, our problems with outsource steam from Over Taxation and Over regulation of every industry. Part of that comes from the "Government must provide for us" mentality that created programs like SocSec. (which I think should be abolished)
IF america became a True FREE MARKET once again, you would see us come back on top over night
Competition for good CEO's have driven their wages up to 400X the average worker where it use to be 25X
the UAW has pushed and Pushed for excessive wages, and non-performace based wages. $25/hr to push a button is excessive pay, sorry
those 2 are what is causing GM problems
However Manufacturing downturnon the whole is not due to american wages like people think. China is going to Surpass us in Oil/Gas use very soon, they currently have more Cell Phone Users than we do in america. Those people are not making a dollar a day like some people think. Production costs increase at a rate of 14% year in china, and China is buying ALOT of US mined ore...
No, our problems with outsource steam from Over Taxation and Over regulation of every industry. Part of that comes from the "Government must provide for us" mentality that created programs like SocSec. (which I think should be abolished)
IF america became a True FREE MARKET once again, you would see us come back on top over night