How much is that clunker in the window?

shagdrum

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How much is that clunker in the window?
Shattering the perceptions behind a government program that ostensibly helps the economy by pushing people buy new cars.

Jonah Goldberg

Ce qu'on voit et ce qu'on ne voit pas.voit et ce qu'on ne voit pas. That may exhaust my French phrase quota for the year, but it's worth it. The saying is the title of an essay by the 19th century French economist Frederic Bastiat and means "that which is seen, and that which is not seen."

Bastiat's essay is most famous for the "parable of the broken window," in which a young boy shatters a shopkeeper's window and, after some initial outrage, the villagers conclude that the rascal helped the local economy. Why?

Because if no one broke windows, then the window makers would be out of business, and if the window makers were out of business, they wouldn't buy any more bread or shoes, hurting the bakers and the cobblers. So the six francs the shopkeeper must shell out for a new window is really a boon to the community.

The problem with this argument can be gleaned from the title of Bastiat's essay. By counting the money the shopkeeper spends to replace a perfectly good window (that which is seen), we ignore the money he might have spent on something else (that which is unseen). The shopkeeper might have instead dropped six francs on new shoes or a book or on a bonus for his assistant. Those who celebrate the broken window as a generator of growth take "no account of that which is not seen."

Sorry for what may seem like a long digression, but the parable of the broken window is worth keeping in mind, perhaps even updating, to the parable of the crushed clunker.

This parable is more convoluted, but the upshot is that Uncle Sam pays people to destroy their own cars as long as they use the money to buy a new, more expensive car.

As you've no doubt heard, the "cash for clunkers" program gives buyers up to $4,500 of taxpayer dollars toward the purchase of a new car, if they trade in their old cars for vehicles with better gas mileage. The old cars, still roadworthy, are then destroyed just like the shopkeeper's window.

The thinking behind the program is that the car companies need a boost, Michigan needs a boost, the environment needs a boost (through lower emissions) and Americans need help too.

Unsaid, but just as relevant, is that the authors of the government's mammoth stimulus plan need some proof that something is being stimulated.

So this scheme is win-win-win-win. Within days, the $1 billion that was supposed fund the program through at least October was used up as consumers, most of whom had been waiting to trade in their old cars anyway, took advantage of the free-money program. Indeed, Washington is agog with its own success, stunned to discover that Americans like getting free money.

That this news shocked so many on both the right and left shows how thick the Beltway bubble really is.

Like the drunk who only looks for his car keys where the light is good, Washington can only see the economic activity it has created, not the activity it has destroyed.

For starters, who says the smartest thing for people with working cars is to buy new ones? Indeed, because personal debt is supposed to be a problem, why not look at this as bribing consumers into taking out car loans they don't need? Even with the $4,500 subsidy, not all of these customers are going to be paying cash upfront for their new cars. So they'll be swapping serviceable-but-paid-for cars for nicer cars that are owned by the banks.

Besides, maybe some people would be smarter to buy a savings bond or max-out their kid's college fund or -- here's a crazy thought -- buy health insurance. But instead they've been seduced into spending the equivalent of their six francs on a car they don't really need.

But, you might say, some buyers surely do need a new car. True enough. But if they need a new car, they'd get one anyway, eventually. Indeed, they might already have gotten it, but rationally opted to wait for the program to kick in.

Or they might have needed to wait until next year or to buy a more affordable carbecause the normal trade-in for their clunker might not be as generous as Uncle Sam's $4,500. They might even have opted for a cheap used car, which will now become more difficult for poor people to find because we are taking all these cheap cars off the market.

But at least, under these scenarios, they'd be spending their own money.

Under the government's program, my tax dollars are being diverted to people with cheap cars so they can buy expensive ones. That's just really inefficient wealth distribution, not wealth creation. But government can see it, and that's all that counts.
 
From an earlier post regarding the CASH Program...
Gee, apparently when you offer tax incentives, people get busy consuming.

You'd think Washington would build on this 'newfound' knowledge. But they don't want the economy to recover.

Using Bastiat's tale is a false analogy to the CASH program...
 
From an earlier post regarding the CASH Program...


Using Bastiat's tale is a false analogy to the CASH program...
Tsk, tsk, fox...cherry picking my posts again? You should know better, but then again, a propagandist does what she must.
 
The thinking behind the program is that the car companies need a boost, Michigan needs a boost, the environment needs a boost (through lower emissions) and Americans need help too.

Unsaid, but just as relevant, is that the authors of the government's mammoth stimulus plan need some proof that something is being stimulated.

So this scheme is win-win-win-win. Within days, the $1 billion that was supposed fund the program through at least October was used up as consumers, most of whom had been waiting to trade in their old cars anyway, took advantage of the free-money program. Indeed, Washington is agog with its own success, stunned to discover that Americans like getting free money.

For starters, who says the smartest thing for people with working cars is to buy new ones? Indeed, because personal debt is supposed to be a problem, why not look at this as bribing consumers into taking out car loans they don't need? Even with the $4,500 subsidy, not all of these customers are going to be paying cash upfront for their new cars. So they'll be swapping serviceable-but-paid-for cars for nicer cars that are owned by the banks.

Besides, maybe some people would be smarter to buy a savings bond or max-out their kid's college fund or -- here's a crazy thought -- buy health insurance. But instead they've been seduced into spending the equivalent of their six francs on a car they don't really need.

Under the government's program, my tax dollars are being diverted to people with cheap cars so they can buy expensive ones. That's just really inefficient wealth distribution, not wealth creation. But government can see it, and that's all that counts.

Sounds like a GIANT lose-lose-lose to me. After this program, car sales will likely drop like a rock, pollution will be worse, and a bunch of people will have a new car payment that they can't afford, JUST LIKE THE HOUSES THEY BOUGHT THAT THEY COULDN'T AFFORD! It seems not a whole lot of people learned their lesson the first time around! Anybody who thinks crushing a perfectly drivable (maybe some repairs needed) and buying a new car will help the environment is a JACKASS.
 
Using Bastiat's tale is a false analogy to the CASH program...

It is easy to make the claim, but can you show that to in fact be be a "false analogy"?

FYI; you need to point out a difference between the two and that difference needs to be relevant to the analogy. Pointing out that one deals with windows and the other deals with cars does not make it a false analogy.

The ball is in your court...
 
OK - let's make sure we both define 'false analogy' the same...

Analogies are point-by-point comparisons. Questionable or 'false' analogies arise when someone can point to one or more significant differences between the two subjects that are being compared in an analogy. Usually analogies are used to find a 'simple' parallel that is easily understood to help explain a more difficult concept.​

So shag, is that how you understand how an analogy is proven false? Let's leave your 'wiki' definition alone for now...

I am perfectly fine with the car/window analogy - and I am also fine with the rather simple version of Bastiat's cautionary homily that the author (Jonah Goldberg) is using.
 
OK - let's make sure we both define 'false analogy' the same...

Analogies are point-by-point comparisons. Questionable or 'false' analogies arise when someone can point to one or more significant differences between the two subjects that are being compared in an analogy. Usually analogies are used to find a 'simple' parallel that is easily understood to help explain a more difficult concept.​

So shag, is that how you understand how an analogy is proven false? Let's leave your 'wiki' definition alone for now...

I am perfectly fine with the car/window analogy - and I am also fine with the rather simple version of Bastiat's cautionary homily that the author (Jonah Goldberg) is using.

I already laid out how an analogy can be proven false.

you need to point out a difference between the two and that difference needs to be relevant to the analogy.

That means no mischaracterization of the analogy in any way to prove that difference. To mischaracterize is to set up a straw man that in no way disproves the actual analogy.

If the difference you site is based on some form of mischaracterization, or is not relevant to the analogy, then you have not proven the analogy false.

The explaination you provide says nothing about weather or not the difference pointed out is relevant to the analogy. Any claim of an analogy being false (and thus fallacious) hinges on that criteria. It can not be removed from the standard necessary to demonstrate a false analogy. If that criteria is removed from the standard, then a logical, and accurate analogy can be said to be "false" when it is not. Simply citing "significant" differences, doesn't prove an analogy false. You have to be able to accurately (not through mischaracterization) show that there is a difference that is relevant to the analogy.
 
Shag - it will be 'relevant' to the analogy

So, now we have that to prove the analogy is false I need to show that there are false comparisions drawn that: 1 - are relevant; and 2 - are significantly different.

Do I have it now?
 
Shag - it will be 'relevant' to the analogy

So, now we have that to prove the analogy is false I need to show that there are false comparisions drawn that: 1 - are relevant; and 2 - are significantly different.

Do I have it now?

you need to point out a difference between the two and that difference needs to be relevant to the analogy.

If you do that (without any mischaracterization) then you will show the analogy to be fallacious, a false comparison, whatever you want to call it.
 
Well, in the spirit of the original article…

La vérité vaut bien qu'on passe quelques années sans la trouver.

Well back to false analogy.

Let’s go one by one – since one is all you really need…

Comparing vandalized (broken) window to a good car.

Not good window to good car or vandalized window to vandalized car.

In Bastiat’s story a perfectly good window has been broken before anything gets set into motion, the purchase of the new window, the moving of money through the French village’s economy.

The storekeeper is required to buy the window. There isn’t a choice. However, in the Clunker’s case there isn’t a requirement to do anything – correct? The act of turning in your vehicle is voluntary.

A much better and correct analogy [not the false analogy of broken window (required to buy) equals good car (chose to buy)] is to have the shopkeeper buy a new window, to replace the good window he already has. In a correct analogy he is not required to purchase the window, there has been no nasty child breaking it forcing him to take money he would have spent on other items. Now he makes a decision to buy a new window for any number of reasons, but none of them a ‘forced’ decision as required in Bastiat’s fable. The same as in the Clunker program, people may make a decision to buy a new car for any number of reasons, but none of them a 'forced' decision as required in Bastiat's scenario. The window itself is now included in the same list of decisions the shopkeeper had earlier – he can chose between shoes, and the book, and the bonus for his employee, and a new window.

This is a relevant and significant difference when using the analogy of Bastiat’s tale equals the Clunker program - correct?
 
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It's an analogy-
it's not literal.

Good windows are destroyed, and it's considered a positive because "it gets money moving."
And what we're seeing today is good vehicles being destroyed, and it's justified because it "gets money moving."

a⋅nal⋅o⋅gy: a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based.

Instead of boring every with these semantics and hijacking another thread with this crap, why not stay on topic and address the point being made?
 
Cal - I certainly hope that you haven't declared yourself as arbitrator here - because, there is a great big difference between having a 'choice' and 'not having a choice' which is where the difference is between replacing a good window and replacing a broken window or replacing a good car and replacing a broken car.
 
Cal - I certainly hope that you haven't declared yourself as arbitrator here - because, there is a great big difference between having a 'choice' and 'not having a choice' which is where the difference is between replacing a good window and replacing a broken window or replacing a good car and replacing a broken car.

Let's say the French King Obama paid that little boy to throw rocks in that analogy then..... now continue.
 
Let's say the French King Obama paid that little boy to throw rocks in that analogy then..... now continue.

Sorry Cal, my little french baguette, Shag likes 'rules' and one rule of debate is eliminating 'what ifs' or 'let's say' that aren't in the original 'equation'...

I personally think that going down those roads, exploring those alleys are a lot more interesting than dry discourse, but here - to really see if this is a false analogy - no looking at anything than what is available to us in Bastiat's fable...

Certainly the King Obama 'what if' is interesting. How upset would the other villagers be that their tax money was being used to foster this little boy's vandalism career? Or would the villagers start to wonder if the competing shopkeeper used his influence with King Obama (shopkeeper 'B' did contribute heavily to the King's favorite charity, 'Searching for Unicorns') and suggested that he would certainly benefit if shopkeeper 'A's window met with a little 'accident'...

However - this time we go as dry as if we turned your lovely baguette, Cal, into croquettes. ;)

So, we can't add King Obama into Bastiat's tale... It isn't good 'form'.
 
I personally think that going down those roads, exploring those alleys are a lot more interesting than dry discourse, but here - to really see if this is a false analogy - no looking at anything than what is available to us in Bastiat's fable...

Funny how you whine about not having an interesting discourse when Shag corrects your logic, but when it suits you, you choose to go 'dry.'

Situational ethics and all that. :rolleyes:
 
Heck Foss, don't you want to see if I can play by the rules? I can you know, it isn't as interesting to me, but, let's make this thread a little challenge. Can I argue false analogy and stay within the parameters that shag likes to set? Who knows, I might whip out the latin at any moment...;)
 
Heck Foss, don't you want to see if I can play by the rules? I can you know, it isn't as interesting to me, but, let's make this thread a little challenge. Can I argue false analogy and stay within the parameters that shag likes to set? Who knows, I might whip out the latin at any moment...;)
I'm more interested in you being intellectually honest and consistent. Sadly, a propagandist never is...
 
I'm more interested in you being intellectually honest and consistent. Sadly, a propagandist never is...

Foss, here we have a really great opportunity for both 'sides' to be intellectually honest and consistent. No outside source is needed - we can monitor ourselves to keep the discussion within the parameters of the article presented since all the information you need to discover if it is a 'good analogy' or a 'false analogy' is there.

And we should be able to do it without labeling the other side, using words like propagandist :p

A great way to look at intellectual honesty. We are forced to play by the same rules. Bastiat's tale is presented and used as a parallel to the CASH program. Is it? A simple question that can be answered within all the information presented.

With all the stuff that gets posted here there really isn't much opportunity to actually look at something like this. Most of it is speculation or opinion. Here, it is pretty black and white. A great time for both sides to step up to the plate. Can Shag and I be intellectually honest within a easily defined discussion?
 
Well, in the spirit of the original article…

La vérité vaut bien qu'on passe quelques années sans la trouver.

Well back to false analogy.

Let’s go one by one – since one is all you really need…

Comparing vandalized (broken) window to a good car.

Not good window to good car or vandalized window to vandalized car.

In Bastiat’s story a perfectly good window has been broken before anything gets set into motion, the purchase of the new window, the moving of money through the French village’s economy.

The storekeeper is required to buy the window. There isn’t a choice. However, in the Clunker’s case there isn’t a requirement to do anything – correct? The act of turning in your vehicle is voluntary.

None of that is relevant to the analogy. All those points are only incidental to the analogy. The area where the two are being compared is the same. That is what has to be different for it to be a false analogy because that would be "relevant to the analogy". What do you think is the specific area that the two scenario's are being compared?

A much better and correct analogy [not the false analogy of broken window (required to buy) equals good car (chose to buy)] is to have the shopkeeper buy a new window, to replace the good window he already has. In a correct analogy he is not required to purchase the window, there has been no nasty child breaking it forcing him to take money he would have spent on other items. Now he makes a decision to buy a new window for any number of reasons, but none of them a ‘forced’ decision as required in Bastiat’s fable. The same as in the Clunker program, people may make a decision to buy a new car for any number of reasons, but none of them a 'forced' decision as required in Bastiat's scenario. The window itself is now included in the same list of decisions the shopkeeper had earlier – he can chose between shoes, and the book, and the bonus for his employee, and a new window.

It might be a "better" analogy (in a purely subjective sense), but it would be no more accurate or reasonable. I figured you knew that "relevant to the analogy" meant the specific area in which the two ideas are being compared. I guess I should have made that clear. Sorry. ;)
 
From the article...

The problem with this argument can be gleaned from the title of Bastiat's essay. By counting the money the shopkeeper spends to replace a perfectly good window (that which is seen), we ignore the money he might have spent on something else (that which is unseen). The shopkeeper might have instead dropped six francs on new shoes or a book or on a bonus for his assistant. Those who celebrate the broken window as a generator of growth take "no account of that which is not seen."​

None of that is relevant to the analogy. All those points are only incidental to the analogy. The area where the two are being compared is the same. That is what has to be different for it to be a false analogy because that would be "relevant to the analogy". What do you think is the specific area that the two scenario's are being compared?

What Bastiat’s tale is about is that we need to see what he would have ‘chosen’ to spend his money on if he wasn’t ‘required’ to spend his money on a window. That is the crux of the idea behind why forcing someone to buy a window rather than allowing them to choose is a bad economic decision, the unseen choices that now can’t be purchased.

Here, in the case of the clunker program, unless the government is forcing you to buy a car, therefore removing your other choices, the analogy isn’t the same. Now people have the same decision making process that Bastiat thought was important. You get to evaluate your choices, and pick the best one according to your needs.

In the case of the shop owner, without the ‘requirement’ of buying a window because of the juvenile delinquent, the window becomes a choice. Does he buy shoes – this way he can walk to the next town to sell his wares at the local fair? Does he buy a book – creating an interest in higher learning for his son? Does he give his assistant a bonus – causing his assistant to get a swelled head, thinking he is worth more, so his assistant sets up a competing shop and drives our shopkeeper out of business? Does he buy a new window – which is more efficient than the old window – allowing him to save money on firewood, which allows him next month to buy the shoes and the book.

With the clunker program the choices haven’t gone away either. The person can still buy a new dining room table, buy a savings bond, max-out their college fund, buy health insurance, buy 12 new pairs of Manolo Blahniks, or buy a new car. Unlike in the Bastiat story, where it is imperative that the choices are removed, and there is a forced purchase, the clunker program has no forced purchase.

Nothing is ‘unseen’ you need to remove choices to create the ‘unseen’ scenario to take effect as it does in Bastiat’s example.

There are unseen things that could happen – but none of those parallel Bastiat’s tale, which is about removing choice and the consequences thereof.
 
You're making it too complicated. What is being compared between the two is very simple; ignoring unseen consequences.

Goldberg shows that is what is comparing in the following passage:
The problem with this argument can be gleaned from the title of Bastiat's essay. By counting the money the shopkeeper spends to replace a perfectly good window (that which is seen), we ignore the money he might have spent on something else (that which is unseen). The shopkeeper might have instead dropped six francs on new shoes or a book or on a bonus for his assistant. Those who celebrate the broken window as a generator of growth take "no account of that which is not seen."

Sorry for what may seem like a long digression, but the parable of the broken window is worth keeping in mind, perhaps even updating, to the parable of the crushed clunker.

This parable is more convoluted, but the upshot is that Uncle Sam pays people to destroy their own cars as long as they use the money to buy a new, more expensive car.​

Basically, he is talking about opportunity cost, which is something that is more often then not overlooked by politicians, the beltway and Washington in general. However, their policies almost always force certain opportunity costs on society and the economy as a whole.
You are partially right when you say the analogy is about "removing choice and the consequence thereof", but you are missing what is actually being compared by only focusing on the microeconomic level and not considering the macroeconomic level as well.

However, this doesn't mean that the analogy is necessarily vaild. In the way Mr. Goldberg presented the analogy, it is valid, but what if there is a problem with the way he presented the analogy? If he mischaracterized one (or both) of the scenarios being compared, and the correction of that mischaracterization would make the analogy false, then simply pointing out that mischaracterization would show the analogy to be false.
 
You're making it too complicated. What is being compared between the two is very simple; ignoring unseen consequences.

You are looking at what Goldberg wants you to look at, not at what Bastiat's essay was about. Goldberg created the false analogy, and you are buying into it.

There are always unseen consequences in every decision. We can't remove that from the equation ever. As I pointed out in the shopkeeper's list of options - 2 options ended up being 'good' (buying the shoes or the book), 1 option ended up being 'bad' (the assistant quitting and opening his own shop) and 1 option that was 'superior' (buying the window).

Or the list that Goldberg and I created regarding the options I had regarding purchasing the car. Once again there are many unseen consequences. There are good and bad options there, and what may look like good choice right now, buying a savings bond, may end up to be a bad decision when the birthers revolt and create an autonomous collective, where savings bonds are burnt as fuel. And what looks to be the worse decision, buying the Manolo Blahniks (however how could buying really sexy shoes ever be a bad decision ;) ), could end up being the best decision when the exceptionally rich movie producer notices the shoes, then the legs, then the fact that I am perfect for the part of extremely alluring, slightly older woman in his next film, starting off a multimillion dollar career for me.

Of course decisions do get weighted, but that isn't in Bastiat's tale. The only thing that is in his tale is the fact that the shopkeepers choices have been removed. He is forced into a single decision. That is what makes Bastiat's tale work. The unseen consequence in Bastiat's tale doesn't entail the decisions that can be made (there are always unseen consequences in making decisions), as Goldberg would like you to think, but the fact that there isn't the opportunity for the shopkeeper to make a decision regarding a variety of choices.

Basically, he is talking about opportunity cost, which is something that is more often then not overlooked by politicians, the beltway and Washington in general. However, their policies almost always force certain opportunity costs on society and the economy as a whole.
You are partially right when you say the analogy is about "removing choice and the consequence thereof", but you are missing what is actually being compared by only focusing on the microeconomic level and not considering the macroeconomic level as well.

Shag, that is the analogy that Goldberg is trying to draw, but since he is comparing an apple (the shopkeeper who had no choice) to an orange (the potential new car buyer who has a choice) it is a false analogy.

He is using unseen consequences regarding the expansion of choices that the government's program gives people. Yes, there are many, just as there are in any group of decisions, no matter how that list of decisions was arrived at. What Goldberg is missing out is the main thrust of Bastiat's story, that the naughty child left the shopkeeper with only one choice, and the consequences of that choice. The child has removed the opportunity of the 'unseen consequences' of the shopkeeper's previously available choices.

The unseen consequence in Bastiat's tale is not about the decisions, how they were arrived at, and their ensuing results. Those unseen consequences are always present when decisions need to be made. The unseen consequence in his story it is the fact that the decisions have disappeared, something that is unique to the parable.
 

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