How much jail time does the good guy get?

[MonsterMark]

1 dead, one injured in Miami Burger King shooting
By ROBERT SAMUELS AND JENNIFER LEBOVICH
jlebovich@MiamiHerald.com
One man was killed and another seriously wounded in a shootout inside a Miami Burger King on Tuesday, officials said.

Police said a man wearing a ski mask walked into the store at Biscayne Boulevard and 54th Street and demanded money from a clerk.

A customer, who has a concealed weapons permit, pulled a gun, said Officer Jeff Giordano, a Miami police spokesman.

The customer and robber exchanged fire.

The robber was shot dead at the scene.

The customer, who had several gunshot wounds, was taken to Ryder Trauma Center in serious but stable condition, said Lt. Ignatius Carroll, a Miami Fire Rescue spokesman.

At about 4 p.m., officials got several 911 calls reporting people shot inside the Burger King.

 

[Frogman]

Wow... Almost seems like it pained the reporter to report that story. I wonder how anti gun that reporter is...

Link for those of you who don't know who Google is.

http://www.miamiherald.com/459/story/965735.html

 

[richduty455]

awesome!!! I'd buy him a whopper.....would of been better if he didn't get shot at all.....but atleast he's stable and alive!!! +1 for the good guys!!

 

[Aquabrit]

Damn right! Give that guy free Whoppers for life!

 

[Titan]

He'd be in a world of hurt in California for his deadly assult on an alleged robber which endangered an unknown number of people in the area.

At the very least he's guilty of using excessive force and, if the alleged robber was a minority, could be guilty of a hate crime.( Would he have shot if the person had not been a minority? )

It has been widely reported that in Oakland this weekend four police officers were shot and killed by a parolee. He's since been linked to a rape earlier this year by DNA evidence. His cousin was quoted in a local S.F. paper the "he wasn't some kind of monster". TV coverage of the officers funeral also had to mention "a quite service" for the shooter. There has been more coverage on this guy to rationalize his behavior than to condem it.

When society (that's us) support the bad guys this is what happens.

 

[Frogman]

He'd be in a world of hurt in California for his deadly assult on an alleged robber which endangered an unknown number of people in the area.

At the very least he's guilty of using excessive force and, if the alleged robber was a minority, could be guilty of a hate crime.( Would he have shot if the person had not been a minority? )

And at the very least you're guilty of being ignorant of Florida Law... which is nowhere near as Communistic as Kalifornia Law. In Florida, people have the right to DEFEND themselves. I know, shocking... What were the Floridians thinking not letting criminals walk all over them like Kalifornians seem to be, right?

 

[Calabrio]

The reporting of that story is so bad, you can't tell what went on. Did the two guys know each other, did the citizen draw his weapon then try to talk the guy out of the store... I expect to be in support of the citizen here but doesn't this story demonstrate the need for everyone who chooses to conceal/carry to volunteer to take the time and energy to increase their proficiency with the gun.


Frogman, how would you have handled the situation?

 

[fokus83]

...so the dude walks in waiving a pistol demanding money. What are the chances that this guy would have fired a single shot if it weren't for our "hero" in the audience?

I worked at a Burger King here when I was in high school. A manager and I closed the store and left at about midnight. We got robbed by three guys at gun point in the parking lot. We went back in the store handed the cash over and they went their way. One week later they were arrested without incident. It was not my money. The company did not want me to fight for it any more than I wanted to.

I am not anti gun nor am I pro gun. I think there are pros and cons of licensed concealed weapons. The pros being that if there are shots being fired and there is legitimate reason to believe that if you draw your gun it will help the situation... great. If the thought that anyone could be packing is enough to deter some violent crimes... great.

On the flip side... chumps like this customer increase the risk that what is likely a bluff from a robber becomes a shootout with innocent bystanders getting shot/killed. For all the customer knew it was an air gun. If he wouldn't have shot at the robber he would have probably ran out the door with an "undisclosed" amount of cash, been arrested within a month, spend two years in jail and everyone would still be alive. Now the criminal is dead and won't face any justice and someone's parent/family member died in the crossfire.

In most places you have to take some gun safety training which shows you how to handle and shoot a gun. That is not equal to a 2 year degree in police science or having gone through the police academy.

 

[fokus83]

Law. In Florida, people have the right to DEFEND themselves. I know, shocking... What were the Floridians thinking not letting criminals walk all over them like Kalifornians seem to be, right?

If I read the story right, there would seem to be that there was little reason to believe that anyones life was REALLY at risk. He was not defending himself - rather he was excited at the opportunity he had to shoot someone legally and could envision headlines proclaiming him to be a hero.

 

[Frogman]

The reporting of that story is so bad, you can't tell what went on. Did the two guys know each other, did the citizen draw his weapon then try to talk the guy out of the store... I expect to be in support of the citizen here but doesn't this story demonstrate the need for everyone who chooses to conceal/carry to volunteer to take the time and energy to increase their proficiency with the gun.

Exactly. Too many unknowns. This is why I'm thinking whoever the reporter was, had a bad taste in his mouth when he reported it... aka, is an anti gunner.

Frogman, how would you have handled the situation?

I would have run off screaming like a little bish.

I think you covered it, Cal... What were the circumstances? How close were the shooters to each other? How did the whole thing went down? Personally, I would have tried to avoid bringing out my sidearm unless absolutely necessary. There are other ways of incapacitating and armed assailant besides using a firearm in return.

If we were relatively close to each other, I would have disarmed him then beat him upside the head with his own handgun then let the rest of the customers have a whack at him.

It's harder to sue 20 people who felt their lives were in danger than suing just one (me). It's sad when you are afraid of defending yourself and letting the bad guy live because you might get sued by him. While I'm not against sending someone like the bad guy to the great pasture in the sky, I'd rather not if I don't absolutely have to. I know the whole "kill them if you turn your back to them so they can't kill you from behind (outflank) you" mentality of the military, but this is a civilian situation.

If we were farther apart, and he could see me, I'd have played it cool till he would slip up, then disarm him and proceed to explain that you don't need bullets to inflict pain, and let the mob have a go at him.

If we were farther apart and he didn't pay attention to me, (see me or not either way) and I had a relatively clear shot,I'd have put 2 holes in his torso and one in his head, then return to my breakfast... it is, after all, the most important meal of the day, no?

Again, this is all moot for two reasons.
1. I don't eat at Burger King (or any fast food joint)
2. I wasn't there to know exactly what happened and how everyone was positioned and don't have an accurate sitrep.

Situations like that are fluid. One second you can get to the guy, the next you can't. It's not a cut and dry thing for me to tell you wha tI would have personally done in it.

 

[Calabrio]

It's not a cut and dry thing for me to tell you what I would have personally done in it.

I appreciate and understand that, I just knew your perspective would add a necessary perspective to the story.

 

[Frogman]

If I read the story right, there would seem to be that there was little reason to believe that anyones life was REALLY at risk. He was not defending himself - rather he was excited at the opportunity he had to shoot someone legally and could envision headlines proclaiming him to be a hero.

And there is little reason to believe that Iran doesn't want to nuke us. Extreme example, but what's your point?

I've had firearms pointed at my head, (not a warm an fuzzy feeling when that cold barrel touches the back of your ear or of the head). I've seen my share of nuts with firearms, and you know what? I'd rather not take a chance on whether some nut with a firearm has enough balls to pull that trigger. How do you know the customers weren't at risk? And even if they were not... what if the robber would have decided to kill everyone so there are no witnesses? It's been done before, both in Civilian and Military Instances (or so I read in a pamphlet once). Do you want to wait till the bad guy starts shooting before you take action?

Because I'll tell you something right now, if you were legally carrying concealed and you didn't do anything to stop the guy before (or after) he would start shooting and a loved one got hurt because of your inaction, I would be making your life a living hell on Earth for letting my loved one suffer when you could have taken control of the situation. -phew... long sentence- And believe me... you get someone with my background pissed off at you (in this hypothetical situation), we carry a monumental grudge. (spare me the online heroics and what you could do to me. )
But you don't have to worry... I don't suffer from the mushy love feelings and I don't get pissed off. Annoyed?... yes. Pissed off? No.

Florida law is clear. If you feel your life in in danger, you can do whatever you deem necessary to correct the situation. I'm paraphrasing, but you get the idea. You can't say "he wasn't defending himself". You weren't there, you don't know what the situation was. Simple as that. Whether you like it or not, it's not up to you to say the good guy didn't feel his life was threatened.

Cheers

 

[Calabrio]

Additional note about the Florida law-
remember the reaction of the main stream media and the anti-gun nuts when Florida amended the law, protecting the rights of the individual to defend themselves?

They stated that Florida was going to devolve into what we imagine the wild west as having been. People would open fire at sporting events over spilled beer. Aggressive advertisements were purchased to discourage foreign tourists from visiting the state for fear that they would be shot. This is an especially significant point because Florida's economy relies heavily on tourism.

Of course, none of that happened.
I've stopped waiting for the retraction, the apologies, or the follow up story defending liberty and personal responsibility.


On a side note, I think carrying is a big responsibility and I don't think everyone is cut out of for it. The way politics are going right now, I'd recommend to the responsible firearm owners to go spend a weekend down in Florida and get your Florida CCW. This way, you'll be grandfathered in if the laws change, and you have a license that has reciprocity with over 30 states.

Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Colorado
Delaware
Georgia
Idaho
Indiana
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Michigan
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Mexico
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Vermont
Virginia
West Virginia
Wyoming

 

[Mr Wiggl3s]

He'd be in a world of hurt in California for his deadly assult on an alleged robber which endangered an unknown number of people in the area.

At the very least he's guilty of using excessive force and, if the alleged robber was a minority, could be guilty of a hate crime.( Would he have shot if the person had not been a minority? )

It has been widely reported that in Oakland this weekend four police officers were shot and killed by a parolee. He's since been linked to a rape earlier this year by DNA evidence. His cousin was quoted in a local S.F. paper the "he wasn't some kind of monster". TV coverage of the officers funeral also had to mention "a quite service" for the shooter. There has been more coverage on this guy to rationalize his behavior than to condem it.

When society (that's us) support the bad guys this is what happens.

Yea. If the guy shot first, thats all the grounds a good lawyer needs.

Good :q:q:q:q buy the guy go.

 

[richduty455]

On a side note, I think carrying is a big responsibility and I don't think everyone is cut out of for it.

Agreed......its is a huge responsibility...like my dad always tells me, a gun is NOT a toy, don't pull it out unless you plan on using it

 

[Frogman]

a gun is NOT a toy

Of course it is.







shhh. let the idiots think it is, so they can play with one and remove themselves from the gene pool

 

[foxpaws]

And as a bystander you are almost always 'toast' in these situations.

You know that at least 50% of the gun carrying equation is an idiot (the robber). Now factor in the fact that if you are lucky, maybe one in 10 guys who want to play hero will be even half as good as mijnheer kikke.

You now, probably at the very least, have a 95% chance that both guys will do something stupid.

So, do you pull out your own weapon - well, in my case, that would place the odds even higher that something stupid will happen.

And Cal, my CHP is just fine here in Colorado - why should I wander down to the land of swamps?

 

[Calabrio]

And Cal, my CHP is just fine here in Colorado - why should I wander down to the land of swamps?

It's not recognized in as many states.
But the statement was intended for you.

 

[MonsterMark]

B.S.

The guy had a gun. Was it a real one? I know some Airsoft guns look pretty damn real at a glance.

I am sure the "good guy" gave him a warning to "Drop his weapon" and the bad guy got off the 1st round. Then the properly trained CCW unfortunately took a couple rounds before he could drop the prick. They dont' say how many rounds the bad guy took.

When in doubt, shoot first, ask questions later.