This is my first post so before I start I'd like to express my appreciation for all the helpful posts from way back when I was only a guest. I have a 2000 ls8 sport with 75k miles. had the car since mile 1. Had all the annoying misfire and other common problems but still always loved my ride. Now I have an issue with the car overheating in stop and go traffic. Live in nyc so there is a lot of that here. I changed the t-stat first. Then I had the radiator taken out flushed and put back in by extremely well known and reputable radiator shop. I noticed the fan works but here is the issue.Just last week I also replaced the plastic coolant tank cause it had hairline cracks that leaked w/pressure. When i turn the ac on it changes to the higher speed ONLY SOMETIMES THOUGH. It will stay full speed for as long as needed. Some days i could stop the fan with my hand it gets so weak. When i'm in traffic and the temp is rising to get to about 3/4's I pull over and the fan is not working at high speed. I put the ac on to see if it makes it speed up, no go. So my question is: what do i replace- the fan-the hydraulic pump- or some other sensor or something thats not telling the fan to get going faster. The fan just seems to be very lazy sometimes and sometimes works normal. Thanks to anyone who can help me get this done. definitly not a mechanic but have a lot of tools and do most things myself. Thanx to whoever can help. :Bang
Hydraulic Fan Issue
- Thread starter APOLLO24
- Start date
car troubles
man I know exactly what you mean when you talked about AC going all the way on high, but mine usually does it if I cut the AC power off and then start car and then turn it back on,, but all in all, my LS in in the shop now for some g-damn lugs bolts braking off some how.. nice $100 from my poor college going ass. Anyway, I got to Johnson City, TN the other day and random smoke staring soming out of the hood when I parked it, could use some info from anyone on what might cause something to smoke just one time and not the next and no I have'nt done :q:q:q:q to the motor lately so no fresh fluids on the engine. but outside of the random thermometor sticking, bolts braking, AC climbing independently, actuators on ashtray not working, weatherstripping needing replaced on windows..... they sure do drive nice and look great. it's too bad a cars quality doesn't show through looks......or these wouldn't break down.
Sorry bout the rant folks, had to get it out.... I got a damn ticket for tint and license plate cover in Johnson City by the way, I don't guess the druggy neighborhoods and college folks are enough to occupy the piglets.....
Ya know, gotta keep people from fixing their rides up and :q:q:q:q.... :woowoo2:
man I know exactly what you mean when you talked about AC going all the way on high, but mine usually does it if I cut the AC power off and then start car and then turn it back on,, but all in all, my LS in in the shop now for some g-damn lugs bolts braking off some how.. nice $100 from my poor college going ass. Anyway, I got to Johnson City, TN the other day and random smoke staring soming out of the hood when I parked it, could use some info from anyone on what might cause something to smoke just one time and not the next and no I have'nt done :q:q:q:q to the motor lately so no fresh fluids on the engine. but outside of the random thermometor sticking, bolts braking, AC climbing independently, actuators on ashtray not working, weatherstripping needing replaced on windows..... they sure do drive nice and look great. it's too bad a cars quality doesn't show through looks......or these wouldn't break down.
Sorry bout the rant folks, had to get it out.... I got a damn ticket for tint and license plate cover in Johnson City by the way, I don't guess the druggy neighborhoods and college folks are enough to occupy the piglets.....
Ya know, gotta keep people from fixing their rides up and :q:q:q:q.... :woowoo2:
yeah it sucks, I had a local shop replace hydraulic cooling fan, cost me around $1000. You should get it checked out first see what the problem is. Sometimes car can overheat when there is air in the cooling system.
gijoe
Active LVC Member
So one day I smelt some oil burning every once in awhile. Turns out it was the engine cooling fan pump. Which caused the to cool less. So I replaced the the pump for 285.00 and the problem fixed. Can't remember whom else had a problemwith the lines cracking and having to be replaced but that is somthing else to look at. The lines going into the pump. And there is no rebuild kit for the pump, just in case to thought there was, as i did.
For the past two days the fan has been working like normal. But again the a/c is turned on and then the fan turns into high gear. I think it doesn't work fast if I don't turn the ac on. The problem is the days it doesn't work well at all ac on or not. It turns those days but just not fast enough. I've had the car checked by 2 diff reputable shops for air in the system. Definitly not the problem the cause on the days the fan works weak its very obvious. I just can't figure out if I need to replace the fan, the pump or something else
The fan will only engage its higher speed when 1 of 2 things happens. If your AC is on, it will be running at its high speed. If your car reaches a certain temperature, your fan will kick on high speed. I would take it to a FLM shop and have them look at it if you believe it is a problem with the fan/pump/sensor.APOLLO24 said:
What they will do (or should do) is to hook up their computer to your car and run a few tests. One of these will be to see if you CHT (cylinder head temp sensor) is working properly. If it is, a signal should be sent to the solenoid in your pump telling it to open the valve in the pump (thus increasing fan speed). If your CHT is working properly and your fan pump is not working, you have narrowed the search down a little.......in other words the fan pump is getting told to open up but nothing is happening.
To check the fan and fan motor, see if you can spin the fan with your hand easily. If it freewheels, your fan and motor are fine. If there is resistance, than you have a problem with your fan and motor assembly. More than likely, your fan pump is on its way out. It is well documented and even the most reputable of shops are not familiar with it. I just replaced mine a few weeks ago and my car hasn't overheated once. Hope this helps.
z1069
Active LVC Member
Sorry Guys, but can y'all post the year of your cars? and V6 or V8
Just trying to learn. :Beer
Just trying to learn. :Beer
Thanx for your response. I turned the fan with my hand and it moves freely with pushing slightly with only one finger. As for the cht thing, is there anyway I could check this on my own without bringing the car in to the dealer? I just can't understand why the fan has been working for the past two days perfectly and on others when it rises above the half way point on the gauge I, pull over to check the fan and its at slow speed, I turn the ac on and then it doesn't kick the fan up to higher speed either. Should I just change the CHT and see what happens? Thanx again
JohnnyBz00LS
Dedicated LVC Member
bb58926 said:
That could be your valve cover gaskets. That would happen to me occasionally (sometimes, but not always accompanied by a smell.......... this usually depended on outside temp and how my climate control was working, pulling in air from the pass-side cowl). Replaced my gaskets and no more smell or smoke.
APOLLO24 said:
My fan pump cost me 250 cost (i work at a dealership). As for seeing if your CHT is bad and isn't telling the pump to work, I know of only one way to test that and it is to hook up a computer and see if the CHT sensor is reading the temp accurately and sending a signal to your pump. I hate to say it, but it might just be the best thing to take it to a shop who has a computer that they can hook up to your LS run the test. But, if you turn your AC on and your fan does not increase in speed, more than likely it is your pump.
I think you're right about me having to replace the pump. Yesterday I had somewhere important to go and with this heat there was no fan at higher speed so i couldn't use the ac and hope there was no traffic. Do you think i should bleed the the pump out first, and how do i go about doing that safely? Second for me to replace the pump completely, should i buy it online and do you have any special intrusctions on how difficult or simple it is to do so? Sorry for all the questions but believe me all responses are greatly appreciated cause this is becoming a major inconvenience. Thanx again. :BangDLS8K said:
2001LS8Sport
Dedicated LVC Member
I know one thing for sure...when my son's 01 LS8 has hydraulic fan problems, I'm not about to spend the kind of money needed to fix it unless I absolutely have to. I'm going to convert it to electric off an 03 or later. I may not get all the high and low speeds I need due to ECM issues, but I can sure wire it to work on high when it's supposed to. If you are skilled with this sort of thing, I would strongly consider this option if I were you. If you leave the sensor for the hydraulic fan in place...but unused, you shouldn't have any codes thrown. It's sure worth a shot to get rid of the problem prone hydraulic unit!
I hate to say it, but it might be more trouble than it is worth to replace your fan with an electric one. There are several things to consider here, a few of which you have already discussed. The first problem that pops to my head would be the increased load on the alternator......one of the reasons they didn't put an electric fan on the 2000-2002 LS's was because of the increased load on the alternator......the other being it supposedly was more quiet. Also, you would have to add a fuse/relay/etc to control it so it doesn't start your car on fire if it fails......any ideas?2001LS8Sport said:
The second problem would be you would still have the hydraulic fan pump bolted to the block. The high-pressure line that runs from the pump to the fan motor would need to be removed.......but then what you are going to do with it? Take it off? Are you going to weld a patch over the pressure line fitting on the pump?..........to do that you would have to take the pump off anyway. Other than that, are you planning on removing the pump completely? If you have to do that, you should just put a new pump on.
If you remove the pump completely, how do you plan on fixing the problem associated with the belt not having a pulley there to guide it? You would have to fabricate a new pulley/assembly and somehow manage to bolt that to the block.........if you didn't do that, it would be extremely difficult to make the car function like it is supposed to without either buying a shorter belt or having a pulley there.
There is also a solenoid in the pump that when current is passed through it, it causes a valve to open up in the pump and increase pressure, thus causing the fan to run at its faster speed. There are several problems with tampering with this system.........one being you would have to make sure the fan turns on when the AC is on and the other being you would have to make the fan works when your engine reaches a certain temperature. For sure, the latter of the two problems deals with the PCM/ECM.........otherwise, how do you plan on controlling the fans speeds?
In theory, it may seem like a good idea, however, practically it just doesn't seem to be realistic. There are far to many factors to consider with a project like this. Think of it this way, it is component of the engine much like your water pump, power steering pump, alternator, etc. Engine components such as these eventually fail and you have to fix or replace them. My car has 100,000 miles and the only component that has failed was the fan pump. What you are going to do when your power steering pump fails? Replace it with an electric system like in the new VW Jettas?
The pump is a little costly, but that is to be expected with things like this. The installation is a little hard, but again, that is to be expected with things like this. Just giving you a little information on the whole cooling system.........if anyone has any ideas on how to get around everything I mentioned, than feel free to shoot away. I don't mean to sound overly critical........just realistic.
2001LS8Sport
Dedicated LVC Member
You're not critical at all DLS8K! And all very good points! But I have them all figured out except for the idler pulley where the pump is removed. But just looking at it, it looks like a shorter belt would work and eliminate a current idler or two. Quite honestly, that isn't going to be much of an issue anyway. There are a lot of ways to get around that. That part doesn't scare me away.
As to the electronics, the ONLY component on this system that is tied to the ECM is the solenoid. The ECM receives it's input from the temp sensor, a/c, etc and sends a signal to the solenoid to increase or decrease the fan speed. There is NO feedback to the ECM that the fan actually changed speeds! That's why when one of these hydraulic fans stops working properly, you won't get a DTC light unless it overheats, etc. The fan itself tells the ECM nothing. To get around it from throwing a code, I would simply leave the solenoid hooked up. The ECM will never know it's not actually hooked into anything.
As to controlling the electric fan, that is the easiest part of the job. There are dozens of kits out there for doing just that. You can use a sensor that hooks to the radiator, (not the best) or use an actual ECM type sensor that goes into a coolant passage. (best) The fan controller will read the voltages and adjust the speed accordingly. These aren't cheap...but not bad by any means.
Most electric fans have a maximum draw of 20 amps. I would say 30 amps maximum. Our alternators will have absolutely no problem handling that draw. As proof, there are a bunch of these cars with stereo systems drawing that much or more with no issues. If it were to become an issue, I would simply upgrade to a 160 amp alternator. But it will work as it is.
You never wire anything like an electric fan direct. You always use relays. As a matter of fact, you could wire it so the fan stays on until it cools the car...even after you shut the engine off. But that's an idea that has been done by the OEM in the past and isn't really viable. But you could easily.... As for operation when the a/c is on, that's very simple too. You simply tap into the a/c pressure switch...just like the hydraulic system does. Most kits you buy are set up for this signal anyway if you don't want to wire your own relay. But here is the real kicker about this...I want to see just exactly how the factory wiring system uses the solenoid. It is in fact very possible you may be able to use the switching signal from that to control your relays...and thus your electric fan. If so, you have just gone to complete factory control of your electric fan. But that's only speculation at this time as I would have to see what type of signal and activation system is used for that.
I'm here to tell you that I am almost positive I can do this for less than $200 and my time if I can find another used LS fan on eBay or a salvage yard. A little more if I have to come up with my own fan. That doesn't include the price of a belt and/or idler if I need one for the pump. Still, it's a lot cheaper than replacing the hydraulics and you won't have any more leaks to worry about. Besides...it will be fun to do!! I do a ton of this sort of stuff and it doesn't intimidate me in the least. And I have a VERY well equipped shop and the factory manuals. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that this can be done...done economically...and you will have a more reliable system when you're done.
As to the electronics, the ONLY component on this system that is tied to the ECM is the solenoid. The ECM receives it's input from the temp sensor, a/c, etc and sends a signal to the solenoid to increase or decrease the fan speed. There is NO feedback to the ECM that the fan actually changed speeds! That's why when one of these hydraulic fans stops working properly, you won't get a DTC light unless it overheats, etc. The fan itself tells the ECM nothing. To get around it from throwing a code, I would simply leave the solenoid hooked up. The ECM will never know it's not actually hooked into anything.
As to controlling the electric fan, that is the easiest part of the job. There are dozens of kits out there for doing just that. You can use a sensor that hooks to the radiator, (not the best) or use an actual ECM type sensor that goes into a coolant passage. (best) The fan controller will read the voltages and adjust the speed accordingly. These aren't cheap...but not bad by any means.
Most electric fans have a maximum draw of 20 amps. I would say 30 amps maximum. Our alternators will have absolutely no problem handling that draw. As proof, there are a bunch of these cars with stereo systems drawing that much or more with no issues. If it were to become an issue, I would simply upgrade to a 160 amp alternator. But it will work as it is.
You never wire anything like an electric fan direct. You always use relays. As a matter of fact, you could wire it so the fan stays on until it cools the car...even after you shut the engine off. But that's an idea that has been done by the OEM in the past and isn't really viable. But you could easily.... As for operation when the a/c is on, that's very simple too. You simply tap into the a/c pressure switch...just like the hydraulic system does. Most kits you buy are set up for this signal anyway if you don't want to wire your own relay. But here is the real kicker about this...I want to see just exactly how the factory wiring system uses the solenoid. It is in fact very possible you may be able to use the switching signal from that to control your relays...and thus your electric fan. If so, you have just gone to complete factory control of your electric fan. But that's only speculation at this time as I would have to see what type of signal and activation system is used for that.
I'm here to tell you that I am almost positive I can do this for less than $200 and my time if I can find another used LS fan on eBay or a salvage yard. A little more if I have to come up with my own fan. That doesn't include the price of a belt and/or idler if I need one for the pump. Still, it's a lot cheaper than replacing the hydraulics and you won't have any more leaks to worry about. Besides...it will be fun to do!! I do a ton of this sort of stuff and it doesn't intimidate me in the least. And I have a VERY well equipped shop and the factory manuals. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that this can be done...done economically...and you will have a more reliable system when you're done.
the issue again is that the beginning of the week the fan was working fine when i put the ac on. for the past couple of days it has not. i was stuck in traffic yesterday and the car started running to almost three qtrs hot till i pulled over. going 50mph the car ran good. is there a relay controling the fan between the ac control panel and the aux fan. could theis be that simple? is it only electrical? sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. :Bang
2001LS8Sport
Dedicated LVC Member
Sorry Apollo...we kinda hijacked your thread. First, at 50 mph, you're going fast enough that you don't even need a fan. That's why it's running fine at that speed. As to how the hydraulic fan is controlled...read my post above. The ECM reads the coolant temp and whether or not the a/c is on and controls the ground to the hydraulic control solenoid. This is done through PCM pin C36. The solenoid itself is powered by vehicle power and only uses the ECM to ground it. Now, what's interesting about this is the book shows the solenoid receives it's power from the Auxillary Junction Box under the hood and has a dedicated fuse! Have you checked for power at your solenoid? It should have two wires...one hot and one ground. The solenoid should have a hot wire with the key on. If not, look in your junction box. It is powered with a 20A fuse.
where's the solenoid for pump so i can check the ground? i just checked the relay and its fine. i did this by swapping the relays from the one that controls wipers to the one that controls the pump. fan did not go faster when i turned on ac. as for hijacking.... its fine. all info is appreciated.
2001LS8Sport
Dedicated LVC Member
The book shows it on top of the engine...towards the front passenger side. Hope that helps.
I've been out of town so I was not able to update on the additional craziness. This weekend Had to drive about 100 miles out of town. When I started the trip I turned the ac on to see if the fan started to go into a faster speed but it did not. Needless to say I left late that night so I won't hit traffic and get good air flow so car won't overheat.I hit speeds in the 80's and when I got off the exit after the drive with no overheating incident I pulled over to check the fan. AC was still on AND THE FAN WAS WORKING AT HIGH SPEED. Did the fact that I was going at those speeds maybe kick something into gear with the belt on the hydraulic pump? did the speeds make the fan turn faster and that made it kick into gear.? That was fri. By Monday the overheating came back and fan was only at slow speed and has not worked well since. I set up appt w/ dealer for this fri but I'm still hoping I can tackle this myself. Why does it work sometimes? ALL INFO GREATLY APPRECIATED.
Another thing I forgot to mention is that to take radiator out and flush it is not as easy as it looks . Alot of things need to be removed including fan to take radiator out and blast it. When I did this to my car at a reputable radiator shop It took them about an hour just to take the radiator out. I wouldn't believe it if I didn't stand there the whole time. Maybe they put back wrong fluid in pump? Maybe they didn't attach fan back together right and its loose somewhere? NO LEAKS and resevoir is at full for pump. Why is this thing working sometimes only? Wow sorry for all the info but can't f*#*@!g figure it out. Thanks again.
joedirt
Active LVC Member
what u wanna do is check the resistance of your HFC solenoid. disconnect the solenoid and check the resistance between the 2 terminals on the solenoid itself.. it should read between 8.5 and 11.5 ohms.. if it doesnt. it needs a new HFC solenoid which is integrated into the pump. its more then likely sticking. if it is in spec.. well.. then u would need a power steering pressure analyzer inline. and check the output pressures of the pump to make sure the pressures are right at certain fluid temps. with the gate valve partially closed to maintain 300psi you should get flows around 1.65gpm(gallons per minute) that could be performed at your local dealership. unless u can get your hands on a pressure analyzer. if it doesnt flow enough. then obviously u would need a new pump. if it does flow, then u would look towards a new hydraulic fan assy. hope this info helps ya! ;]
you seem to really know your stuff. From what you said its seems dealer is my only option. I acn fix things but obviously getting to root of problem is not my thing. Just to understand better, my solenoid is basically in my pump and more than likely its sticking and thats why it works only sometimes. Correct me if I'm wrong but my fan is probably working right because i spun it and it freewheels<thanx ls8sport>. If my solenoind is bad than replace n pump only and that has solenoid in it right? cause I can't even see it. Thanks :Bangjoedirt said:
joedirt
Active LVC Member
if u look on the pump/. u will see the connector for the solenoid and yes it is incorporated in the pump. so u would replace it as an assy. spinning the fan by hand will tell that their is no resistance and the fan should be ok. there is also a internal relief valve on the return side of the resevior.. there is a lil screen in there that could be clogged or the relief valve is stuck.
ford wasnt bright when they had this idea. i dont know why they didnt just put electric motors on these and said hell with the noise.
ford wasnt bright when they had this idea. i dont know why they didnt just put electric motors on these and said hell with the noise.
2001LS8Sport
Dedicated LVC Member
joedirt said:
They did in 2003. That's why I will change to electric if I ever lose the hydraulic unit.