Iraq's problems existed long before 2003

Calabrio

Dedicated LVC Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2005
Messages
8,793
Reaction score
3
Location
Sarasota
Appointment in Mesopotamia: Iraq's problems existed long before 2003.
By Christopher Hitchens
Monday, Feb. 5, 2007, at 11:57 AM ET
http://www.slate.com/id/2159082/?nav=navoa

Replying to Fareed Zakaria's observation in Newsweek, about Iraq and the Iraqis—that "We did not give them a republic. We gave them a civil war."—Charles Krauthammer, in our common sister paper the Washington Post, expressed a fine contempt:

Did Britain "give" India the Hindu-Muslim war of 1947-48 that killed a million souls and ethnically cleansed 12 million more? The Jewish-Arab wars in Palestine?

Alas, the answer to the above sarcastic questions is "yes." (In the first instance by staying several decades too long and then compounding the mistake by leaving much too fast—even unilaterally advancing the date of independence so as to speed up the scuttle—and by capitulating to Muslim League demands for partition; and in the second instance by promising Palestine at different times to both the Zionist and Arab nationalist movements.) However, this unpleasant historical fact—which has its own implications for Iraq—does not acquit Zakaria's remark of the charge of being morally idle. In many other people's minds, too, there is the unspoken assumption that what the United States does in Iraq is a fully determined action, whereas what other people do is simply a consequence of that action, with no independent or autonomous "agency" of its own. This mentality was perfectly expressed, under the byline of Marc Santora, in the New York Times of Jan. 31. Santora explained the background of the murderous attacks on the Shiite festival of Ashura: "At Ashura, Shiites commemorate what is for them the most formative event of their faith, a celebration that had been banned under Saddam Hussein. In recent years, Sunni militants, caught up in a renewed sectarian split, have attacked worshippers on the holiday." (My italics.)


I suppose that might be one way of putting it. But a factually neutral way of phrasing the same point would be to say that three years ago, the leader of al-Qaida in Mesopotamia wrote to his guru Osama Bin Laden, saying that there was a real danger of the electoral process succeeding in Iraq and of "suffocating" the true Islamist cause. The only way of preventing this triumph of the democratic heresy, wrote Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, was to make life so unbearable for the heretical Shiites that they would respond in kind. The ensuing conflict would ruin all the plans of the Crusader-Zionist alliance. I can still remember the chill that went through me when I read this document and realized that it combined extreme radical evil with a high degree of intelligence. Santora's reportage is not alone in slightly declining the responsibility for facing this central truth.

If there is a sectarian war in Iraq today, or perhaps several sectarian wars, we have to understand that this was latent in the country, and in the state, and in the society all along. It was not the only possible outcome, because it had to be willed and organized, but it was certainly high on the list of probabilities. (The Saddam Hussein regime, which thrived on the worst form of "divide and rule," certainly represented a standing invitation to run this risk.)

In other words, those who now deplore and decry the "civil war" (or the "civil wars") must, in order to be serious, admit that they would have deplored such an outcome just as much if it had not happened on America's watch or had (like Rwanda) been something that we could have pretended to watch as disinterested or—even worse—uninterested spectators.

The habit of viewing Iraq as a crisis that only began in 2003—a lazy habit that is conditioned by the needs of the impending 2008 election—is an obstacle to understanding. Everybody has their own favorite alternative scenario of how things might have evolved differently or better. In some weak moments, I can picture taking the alternative advice from the European Union and the United Nations in 2003—let's just see how Iraq develops if left alone as a private fiefdom of the Saddam Hussein dynasty—and only then deciding that things have deteriorated to the point where an international intervention is necessitated. That would have been much less upsetting and demanding than the direct assumption of responsibility, and could have been triggered by the more familiar images of unbearable suffering and carnage, and could have summoned the Darfur-like emotions of guilt and shame, but it would perforce have been begun very much later—and perhaps too late altogether.

Iraq was in our future. The specter, not just of a failed state, but of a failed society, was already before us in what we saw from the consequences of sanctions and the consequences of aggressive Sunni fascism at the center of the state. Nobody has ever even tried to make a case for doing nothing about Iraq: Even those who foresaw sectarian strife were going by a road map that was already valid and had been traveled before. Thus it seems to me quite futile to be arguing about whether to blame the Iraqis—or indeed whether to blame the coalition. Until recently, no Iraqi was allowed to have any opinion about the future of his or her country. How long did we imagine that such a status quo would have remained "stable"? Charles Krauthammer might be wrong about his specific historical comparisons, but he is quite right to lay stress on the point that—absent a complete evacuation of Iraq and the region—there was a rendezvous in Mesopotamia that could not have been averted. A general refusal to confront this fact is actively revealed by the use of the passive voice.
 
Very good article, I do have a couple of questions though... I can be argued that Saddam regardless of being what he was kept order and kept the different factions in-line. So, was it worth trading a Dictator for the state that Iraq is in today and are we safer in the long run considering Iraq doesn't do a 180* for the better?
 
95DevilleNS said:
Very good article, I do have a couple of questions though... I can be argued that Saddam regardless of being what he was kept order and kept the different factions in-line. So, was it worth trading a Dictator for the state that Iraq is in today and are we safer in the long run considering Iraq doesn't do a 180* for the better?

In order to address that question, you need to explain HOW he kept the factions in-line. Through genocide, murder, torture, and rape. Through mass graves full of executed children still clutching their stuffed animals.

By sending in divisions of tanks to destroy entire villages. By drop chemical weapons on villages. By killing 210,000 of the quarter million marsh Arabs on the River.

Saying that Hussein "kept them in line" is sort of like saying that the Arab Muslims in the Sudan are keeping the Christians and Black Muslims in the Sudan in line.

So, let's never just gloss over what was involved in "keeping them in line." What I find a bit fascinating is how the very people who often say "well he kept them in line" using the tactics we know he used are the very same people who complain the loudest when the U.S. changes the temperature in an interrogation room by 10 degrees, claiming it's "torture."

Was it worth trading the current state for the conditions that existed in 2003. Absolutely, IF the government can maintain the resolve to carry through with the operation and learn from the mistakes made.

While it's often mentioned that the Bush administration has begun a troop surge into Iraq. What isn't mentioned is that this surge also includes redeployment within the country, a change in the rules of engagement for U.S. troops, and a much more aggressive military strategy.

Hitchens is a good read, though he's very liberal, but thoughtful, intelligent, and unbelievably self-confident and arrogant.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Very good article, I do have a couple of questions though... I can be argued that Saddam regardless of being what he was kept order and kept the different factions in-line. So, was it worth trading a Dictator for the state that Iraq is in today and are we safer in the long run considering Iraq doesn't do a 180* for the better?

Gee, I don't know, Deville, why don't you ask the 20,000,000 dead Russians and the 20,000,000 dead Chinese and the 6,000,000 dead Jews, all exterminated at the hands of dictators, if they feel like it was worth it to "keep order." :mad:
 
Calabrio said:
In order to address that question, you need to explain HOW he kept the factions in-line. Through genocide, murder, torture, and rape. Through mass graves full of executed children still clutching their stuffed animals.

By sending in divisions of tanks to destroy entire villages. By drop chemical weapons on villages. By killing 210,000 of the quarter million marsh Arabs on the River.

Saying that Hussein "kept them in line" is sort of like saying that the Arab Muslims in the Sudan are keeping the Christians and Black Muslims in the Sudan in line.

So, let's never just gloss over what was involved in "keeping them in line." What I find a bit fascinating is how the very people who often say "well he kept them in line" using the tactics we know he used are the very same people who complain the loudest when the U.S. changes the temperature in an interrogation room by 10 degrees, claiming it's "torture."

Was it worth trading the current state for the conditions that existed in 2003. Absolutely, IF the government can maintain the resolve to carry through with the operation and learn from the mistakes made.

While it's often mentioned that the Bush administration has begun a troop surge into Iraq. What isn't mentioned is that this surge also includes redeployment within the country, a change in the rules of engagement for U.S. troops, and a much more aggressive military strategy.

Hitchens is a good read, though he's very liberal, but thoughtful, intelligent, and unbelievably self-confident and arrogant.


My saying "kept them in-line" wasn't an attempt to sugarcoat Saddam; I implied what he was in the previous line, or at least that was what I meant as we're all aware of Saddam’s actions...

Obviously it would be worth it if the government does gain and can maintain stability; what if not though, is it worth trading a murdering (and everything you mentioned above) dictator for ongoing anarchy?
 
fossten said:
Gee, I don't know, Deville, why don't you ask the 20,000,000 dead Russians and the 20,000,000 dead Chinese and the 6,000,000 dead Jews, all exterminated at the hands of dictators, if they feel like it was worth it to "keep order." :mad:


Gee Fossten, not sure why you brought that up... Stalin wasn't taken out by us, Mao wasn't taken out by us and we only actively entered WWII after we were attacked by Japan in 1941, Hitler had been rounding up and killing Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals and anyone else he declared "Sub-Human" years before that.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Obviously it would be worth it if the government does gain and can maintain stability; what if not though, is it worth trading a murdering (and everything you mentioned above) dictator for ongoing anarchy?
So you are saying that a stable, orderly society is to be preferred over individual life and liberty? I believe Stalin, Saddam, Mao, Kim Jong-Il, Castro, Che Guevara, Hitler, and Ho Chi Minh would agree with you.

By the way, your "ongoing anarchy" canard is baloney. If we abandon the Iraqis now, THEN we'll have anarchy.
 
fossten said:
So you are saying that a stable, orderly society is to be preferred over individual life and liberty? I believe Stalin, Saddam, Mao, Kim Jong-Il, Castro, Che Guevara, Hitler, and Ho Chi Minh would agree with you.

By the way, your "ongoing anarchy" canard is baloney. If we abandon the Iraqis now, THEN we'll have anarchy.


Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but no, I am not saying that.

Okay, do you prefer "ongoing war", that more suitable? I am not an advocate of abandoning the Iraqis.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Okay, do you prefer "ongoing war", that more suitable? I am not an advocate of abandoning the Iraqis.

No one wants an "ongoing war." I would be in support of an intensified more aggressively pursued war so that it doesn't become "ongoing."
 
Calabrio said:
No one wants an "ongoing war." I would be in support of an intensified more aggressively pursued war so that it doesn't become "ongoing."


Of course no one wants a that, but that has become the outcome. As would I.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Of course no one wants a that, but that has become the outcome. As would I.
"Ongoing War" I assume you mean in Iraq, because in reality we are still at war with international Islamic Terrorism, and that war isn't going to end just because we bail out of Iraq, nor will it end just because we quell the violence in Iraq. However, since we're playing the semantics game, how about I try out a few terms to describe the Iraqi situation?

How about:

Tumultuous aftermath
Bloody occupation
Picking up the jagged pieces
Tying up loose ends
Exterminating the remaining vermin
Shoring up the foundation of the Iraqi Democracy

See, I can play the game too.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Back
Top