Judge properly rules 128 mph not necessarily reckless

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Barwick

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I found this story incredible. Not that the guy got off for going 128, but that a judge properly ruled that going 128mph isn't necessarily reckless since no lives were in danger besides the driver himself.

Nebraska Judge Says 128 Mph Not 'Reckless'
By Associated Press

Wed Dec 7, 4:34 PM

NEBRASKA CITY, Neb. - Speeding is not necessarily reckless, even at 128 mph, a judge ruled in the case of a motorcyclist who tried to flee from state troopers.

With some reluctance, County Judge John Steinheider ruled last week that Jacob H. Carman, 20, was not guilty of reckless driving on Sept. 5, when he was spotted by a trooper who then chased him at the top speed of his cruiser's odometer _ 128 mph.

"As much as it pains me to do it, speed and speed alone is not sufficient to establish reckless driving," the judge told Carman on Friday. "If you had had a passenger, there would be no question of conviction. If there had been other cars on the roadway, if you would've went into the wrong lane or anything, I would have convicted you."

Otoe County prosecutor David Partsch acknowledged that Carman could have been charged with speeding but, "We felt that the manner in which he was operating the motorcycle was reckless."

Carman didn't get off entirely. He was fined $300 for expired tags and other violations.
 
I understand the argument that speed alone isn't reckless. I would agree.

However-
motorcycles, 128mph, attempting to outrun the police, expired tags....

These are reckless.
 
Not Reckless, Stupid

However-
motorcycles, 128mph, attempting to outrun the police, expired tags....

These things are not wreckless, they are stupid. The only thing wreckless was the officer taking his cruiser to its limits going after a motorcycle that was obviously capable of going faster. They probably tried to use the wreckless charge to try to get higher fines and or points. I too have successfully fought and won fines that were improperly given. I was once given a fine for too fast for conditions. My argument was that even though I was breaking the law by doing a wheelie, and speeding, the conditions in which I did them were in fact perfect for what I was doing. Moonlit summer night on a deadend street ant 11:00PM. My argument was that the conditions were in fact very favorable for what I was doing. I admitted to the judge that it was improper, but that I was not charged with doing anything improper. I won the case. Had to watch my back for a while, but I won the case.
 
128 ??? Thats It ? My odometer goes to 72,168 !! This story sounds alot like one here in Florida but ours ended differently. A guy on a motorcycle was racing a Porsche. A state trooper in a Camaro SS package went after the motorcycle and ended up crashing and died. The motorcycle driver was found guilty in the death of the trooper and sentenced to 30 yrs. So obviously his excessive speed was indeed found to be reckless in this case. By breaking the law and having a cop chase you i guess your responsible for his wellfair also. But there are some other points to this. Suicide is "illegal" in most places so i cant see that the arguement that because only yourself was involved then its not reckless. Whether your a highly skilled driver or not those speeds will most definatly cause a fatal injury. But whatever the guy got lucky with the judge. I got slapped with a reckless driving ticket when i wrecked my Trans Am. I took it to court and won on the basis that the trooper was not there at the time of the crash to deem my driving as "reckless". I said i swerved to miss an animal and ran off the road. That cant be disputed and it cant be found reckless. Poor trooper, felt bad for him. He was like 65, old and couldnt remember sh!t when he was asked. Oh well.
 
^^^^^
I heard about this one too......I dont know If I agree 100% because the guy on the motorcycle did not directly cause him but if he did not run he would not have died .....I know local police can not chase unless the crime the person committed was a felonly (something life threating or something ) IM sure someone know what im talking about.....My best friends dad was kill serval years back buy a guy running (he was a cop laying out stop sticks and the guy swerved and hit him.....the guy was chased and shot and is a quad...in a wheel chair but still free ..... The officers family had to burry there father...brother....husband....son.......... and this prick spends everyday with his family......

I dont understand why people wanna run from the cops they will catch you !!!
 
If suicide is illegal....

If driving fast is considered suicide by you and therefore against the law, then I guess that all organized forms of motorsports should be banned because there is the possibility of death.

More than likely the officer who died while cahsing the racers made a fatal mistake without any input at all from the racers. Maybe he was less qualified and more poorly equiped than the racers. And you do not mention if the Porsche driver was ever cited or convicted. That officer made the decision to follow the biker and it turned out to be a very poor decision on his part. If he were not trying to be macho, and would have been as well equipped as the biker, maybe the circumstances would have been much different. All cops, and there are at least 6 of them in my family, have told me that chasing suspects at triple digit speeds is unnecessary and wreckless behavior by officers. The biker may have been able to outrun the car, but not the radio. The only person negligent in the scenario that you mentioned was the officer who obviously did not have the equipment nor the skills necessary to do what he did.
 
bufordtpisser said:
If driving fast is considered suicide by you and therefore against the law, then I guess that all organized forms of motorsports should be banned because there is the possibility of death.

More than likely the officer who died while cahsing the racers made a fatal mistake without any input at all from the racers. Maybe he was less qualified and more poorly equiped than the racers. And you do not mention if the Porsche driver was ever cited or convicted. That officer made the decision to follow the biker and it turned out to be a very poor decision on his part. If he were not trying to be macho, and would have been as well equipped as the biker, maybe the circumstances would have been much different. All cops, and there are at least 6 of them in my family, have told me that chasing suspects at triple digit speeds is unnecessary and wreckless behavior by officers. The biker may have been able to outrun the car, but not the radio. The only person negligent in the scenario that you mentioned was the officer who obviously did not have the equipment nor the skills necessary to do what he did.
Click to expand...
Thats a piss poor attitude to have. For someone with law enforcement "in the family" you sure dont have too much knowledge from it. First off, in Florida, a state trooper only deals with traffic enforcement. Its their JOB to apprehend a speeder. He was in a high speed chase vehicle to do just that, chase at high speeds. This is on a highway with a speed limit of 70 mph, so triple digits arent too far off.
I know local police can not chase unless the crime the person committed was a felonly (something life threating or something )
Click to expand...
Yes, in most cases cops wont chase you for a moving violation, but not the case with FHP, they will. Next, if you commit a crime, whether its good judgement or not to try to apprehend you, the fact that you are in the process of committing a crime makes you liable for any outcome. If an officer has an accident while responding to a crime you commit you would be liable if the cop wasnt acting negligent.
Maybe he was less qualified and more poorly equiped than the racers.
Click to expand...
No, he was in a pursuit package Camaro SS, well capable of highway speeds at 130+. He lost control after a tire blew, it was found to be a defect in the tire, had nothing to do with the driver.
Regardless that guy on the motorcycle has the next 30 yrs to think about that decision to run.
 
i wonder if this is the states way of not having to prove reaponsiblity for providing safe equipment. i have paid my share of road tax. but have never ran and would never tell some one to. i am a firm advocate against high speed pursuit with one exception and that is if they know that someone other than the driver is in the car. just like drunk drivers are sometimes the only one not hurt in an accident. jd
 
Piss Poor or not...

Fla02LS said:
Thats a piss poor attitude to have. For someone with law enforcement "in the family" you sure dont have too much knowledge from it. First off, in Florida, a state trooper only deals with traffic enforcement. Its their JOB to apprehend a speeder. He was in a high speed chase vehicle to do just that, chase at high speeds. This is on a highway with a speed limit of 70 mph, so triple digits arent too far off.

Just because the Florida laws are what they are, does not make it right for an officer to endanger the lives of innocents. They were racing, not robbing a bank or shooting at each other. I do not believe that anyone has the right to disobey an officer of the law, but I also do not believe that the officers should be endangering innocent lives just to catch a speeder. Period.

Yes, in most cases cops wont chase you for a moving violation, but not the case with FHP, they will. Next, if you commit a crime, whether its good judgement or not to try to apprehend you, the fact that you are in the process of committing a crime makes you liable for any outcome. If an officer has an accident while responding to a crime you commit you would be liable if the cop wasnt acting negligent.

Then maybe the FHP needs to rethink their policies. And as far as the liabilities issue, if the fleeing driver had decent representation, at least in PA, he would be guilty of a lot of things, but the death of the officer would not be one of them. That officer made a consciencious decision to chase that biker, no one forced him to do so. And even in Florida, it is at the discretion of the officer to call off the chase. It was more than likely his adreneline pumped macho attitude that killed him as much as your admitted faulty equipment. Which brings up another point, it was a combination of his poor decision to chase the biker, and faulty equipment that killed him.

No, he was in a pursuit package Camaro SS, well capable of highway speeds at 130+. He lost control after a tire blew, it was found to be a defect in the tire, had nothing to do with the driver.
Regardless that guy on the motorcycle has the next 30 yrs to think about that decision to run.
Click to expand...

OK, so he was in a car equipped to go 130+. He had leet skills so that he could drive at those speeds, then he blew a tire. Where does any of that make the biker negligent?? He should have stopped. He is guilty of speeding, eluding, and stupidity. Not the death of an officer who used poor judgement and faulty equipment. Using your logic, the officer would have been guilty if the biker blew a tire and was killed because if the officer was not pursuing him he would not have been speeding.

I am very strongly against fleeing from the authorities. I am equally against macho cops chasing someone and killing innocents for the thrill of the chase. They have immunity from prosecution in almost all circumstances, even if they were negligent. We don't.
 
Interesting, because everyone would blame the lazy cop for having refrained from chasing the speeder in the event he got in an accident further down the road, or worse yet, crashed into a driver going 60 mph slower than he was.
 
bufordtpisser said:
...I am very strongly against fleeing from the authorities. I am equally against macho cops chasing someone and killing innocents for the thrill of the chase. They have immunity from prosecution in almost all circumstances, even if they were negligent. We don't.
Click to expand...

:I


How can they convict the motorcycle guy, he was taking the same chances with his life - NO!! He was taking MORE chances, he is not a trained hot shot copper in a hot rod muscle car thinking he's all that and a box of donuts too, but of course Im sure he wasn't like that - BS!!!! Why else would he be chasing him, the chase was not even justified!!

Yeah blew a tire, something blew and it was that cops driving ability, the tire probably went when he crashed...tire blew....aint that just it!!! Heck poor guy, he's probably up there thinking " Damn Guys, ya coulda thought of something better than that!".

They were playing Russian Roulette, the cop lost, hopefully that guy will get a decent lawyer and get out and maybe the cops can work on getting real criminals in the jails......sorry, trying to make since again......

MsM8
 
Wow, haven't checked this one in a bit...

I can't believe that guy got 30 years, it's ridiculous. Nobody MADE that cop chase him... I mean, let's say some dude runs from the cops on foot, then stops in the middle of a parking lot and pours a 20-foot diameter circle of gasoline on the ground and lights it so the cops can't get to him. And now let's say a cop decides to walk through that fire to get him and ends up dying from being caught on fire, is it that guy's fault that the cop made a poor decision? No.

And Florida law is ridiculous in that sense, that they force their cops to endanger their lives simply because someone made a "traffic offense"? That's a load of crap. They're making their officers cause more danger by chasing the guy, than the suspect was causing by racing (or whatever else he was doing). If he runs, fine, get his plates and get him later.
 
Don't get me wrong here...

For the most part I like cops. I have been given more warnings than fines over the years. Just received one yesterday for doing 53 in a 25. I always treat cops as professionals. And I agree that there are more good cops than bad cops, buta cop who knowingly puts the life of innocents for the sake of a speeding or any other low grade offense is not a professional. He is a show off who is abusing his powers. I know in our local jurisdictions, cops are not allowed to initiate or continue a chase if it was not a felony offense, or it is determined that the cahse has reached unsafe speeds or innocents are in danger. We just had an incident where an innocent was killed when an officer was chasing a stolen car. The 15 year old driver of the stolen car hit another car while running a red light while being chased by the officer. Turned out that the justification by the officer for the chase was that the stolen car belonged to a fellow officer who lent his car to a woman, who's son used it for a crack lease(when they let a drug dealer use a car in return for free drugs), and the dealer gave the car to the 15 year old to make a delivery. Now a family has to bury a father and husband, just because an over zealous cop wanted to get his budy in blues car back for him. And the ironic twist to this whole story is that the person killed was a retired officer. I place no blame on the officer, but I do believe that he used extremely poor judgement. Had the chase been called off, the 15 year old would have probably dumped the car and took off on foot, leaving a retired officer able to spend the holidays with his family. And by the way, the officer who did the chasing, was reprimanded but found to be immune just as the police force as a whole.
 
Fla02LS said:
No, he was in a pursuit package Camaro SS, well capable of highway speeds at 130+. He lost control after a tire blew, it was found to be a defect in the tire, had nothing to do with the driver.
Click to expand...


thats the risk you take when you go that fast, doesnt matter if your a magical state trooper or not. They are not outside of the laws of physics, which seems to be the ONLY laws they follow.

atleast in jersey they know of such a law, and limit the cops to a chase under 120, and only in a fellony situiation. because (- the ss camaros) crown victorias are NOT super hotrods, incase they didnt notice. (nor is the ss camaro for that matter)
 
Calabrio said:
I understand the argument that speed alone isn't reckless. I would agree.

However-
motorcycles, 128mph, attempting to outrun the police, expired tags....

These are reckless.
Click to expand...

Its also deadly. During the summer one of my friends died at 17 years old becuase he did a wheelie and the cops saw him and he tried to outrun them. He ran a red light and slammed into the side of a car at speeds in excess of 100mph.
 
Florida Highway Patrol's guildines for high speed chases specify that a high speed chase should only be engaged when pursuing a suspect of a VIOLENT CRIME. Sustained high speed chases for speeders or racers is against these guidelines.

That FHP officer might as well have ate his own gun. tire blowouts can happen at high speed and every FHP officer is trained to know this, and limit his use of high speed chase as much as possible.

However, Florida is a southern state, and in the south, the cops are always right, even if they are wrong.
 
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