Mark VII just died!

S

surfaaron

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I was leaving work and went to pull out of the garage, came to a stop and the engine just clicked off. No sputtering or anything. Just shut off. I have not been able to get it to start since this happend. It has gas, batterie seems fine and is some what new. It turns over fine and sounds normal when it does but just wont start. Any help would be great. Thanks alot.
 
Fuel, Air, Fire

P1010016a.jpg


Your profile says that this is an 87LincolnMark7LSC.

Fuel in the tank and fuel at the engine are two different things :) With a fuel guage (or round faced pressure guage in a pinch), verify fuel pressure at the fuel rail (behind the alternator) with the key on/engine off. You should have near 39#. If it's zero then your fuel pump isn't pumping. This could be a dead pump or an interruption in signal to pump fuel such as the inertia switch is tripped or the ignition switch gave up the ghost or there is no power to the fuel pump.

Air has got to get into the engine. Verify that the air intake has not inhaled a cat or other small animal or been filled with cement and allowed to cure overnight.

Fire in the form of an electrical signal, voltge, or 35,000+ volt spark, has gotta flow too. Since your battery is strong enough to crank the engine then it should be strong enough to produce a spark. That is if the electronics are sending a signal to actually do this. Check the connections from the battery to the starter relay/solenoid, from the relay to the accessories and fusable links and alternator and then the three connections on the alternator.

ONCE ALL OF THIS HAS BEEN VERIFIED with a volt meter, (or mannually at the connections because your volt meter is in the garage or at the store because you haven't purchased it yet) you need to replace two parts:

Ignition Switch
TFI Module

The first is outlined in the link.
The second requires a special tool known as the Ford TFI Removal Tool; a thin walled socket tool that I've owned since 1989 and used only three times yet could NOT get these little buggers off without it or the $20.00 Snap-On Tools equivelant.

Let's hope this solves your problem or at least keeps you busy for about 13 minutes :)
 
surfaaron said:
I was leaving work and went to pull out of the garage, came to a stop and the engine just clicked off. No sputtering or anything. Just shut off. I have not been able to get it to start since this happend. It has gas, batterie seems fine and is some what new. It turns over fine and sounds normal when it does but just wont start. Any help would be great. Thanks alot.
Click to expand...


Happened to me once.. 88 Mark7
The first symptom was occasional hard-starting and it'd sometimes die at stop signs.

I know I need fuel, a spark and compression. Since compression was not an issue, spark and fuel were suspect.
Stuck a $5 neon spark detector on the plug wires while starting. All cylinders were sparking strong..
So, it was a lack of fuel.

I grabbed some Starting Fluid and squirted a healthy dose into the air intake at the throttle. It coughed and started. So i carried starting fluid while trying to diagnose the problem.

A month of screwing around with every fuel-related thing i could think of followed.
I gave up and took it to my mechanic. In ten minutes his diagnostic tools pinpointed a bad "Injector Relay". Evidently this relay thing only needs to function when the car starts. I don't recall other details.
Cost me about $100.

Having suffered other relay-related problems on this 21 year old, 249,000 mile car, I would suggest you check it out. Nothing lasts forever.
 
Elessee said:
...In ten minutes his diagnostic tools pinpointed a bad "Injector Relay". Evidently this relay thing only needs to function when the car starts. I don't recall other details.
Cost me about $100.

Having suffered other relay-related problems on this 21 year old, 249,000 mile car, I would suggest you check it out. Nothing lasts forever.
Click to expand...
Not to hijack the thread but I never heard of an injector relay.

<OS breaks out the 1986 Shop Manual>

Thanks or the tip!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.
 
OldSchool1 said:
Not to hijack the thread but I never heard of an injector relay.
Click to expand...

Well, until the mechanic said it, I never did either... I might have it wrong.. but this shop has done lots of work for me and I trust them.

The conversation went something like this:
"You found it already?"
"Yeah.. Injector relay."
"A what? Never mind.. I'll be there in an hour."

My problem was that no fuel was being delivered at low RPM / starting. I recall checking pressure at the fuel rail and that was OK, so i doubt he meant the EEC power relay or fuel pump relay.. Anyway, I could hear the fuel pump running with ignition in RUN. And, once the car started everything operated as normal (except when RPM dropped really low, whereupon it sometimes died and refused to start).

I am pretty sure it was something electrical and related to injectors rather than the fuel pump.. The problem was a single, relatively inexpensive component, and I do remember the word "relay".

Oh well.. best of luck with it.
 
Thanks

Thanks guys!OldSchool, as usual you are more than helpfull. I may need some help with finding some of these things to check but thanks for the info. I will check these things and let you know. One thing though, can I just pull a plug and check to see if there is spark like I used to do on my old trucks? Thanks again for the help. Way to broke to take it to a mecanic.
 
Mechanically Sparking Broke Dude Mistakes :)

Elessee said:
Well, until the mechanic said it, I never did either... I might have it wrong.. but this shop has done lots of work for me and I trust them.

The conversation went something like this:
"You found it already?"
"Yeah.. Injector relay."
"A what? Never mind.. I'll be there in an hour."

My problem was that no fuel was being delivered at low RPM / starting. I recall checking pressure at the fuel rail and that was OK, so i doubt he meant the EEC power relay or fuel pump relay.. Anyway, I could hear the fuel pump running with ignition in RUN. And, once the car started everything operated as normal (except when RPM dropped really low, whereupon it sometimes died and refused to start).

I am pretty sure it was something electrical and related to injectors rather than the fuel pump.. The problem was a single, relatively inexpensive component, and I do remember the word "relay".

Oh well.. best of luck with it.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the heads up.
Ask five mechanics for the name of a part and you may get four different answers. That's really understandable as they work on MANY different makes and models.
After hitting the books (I litterally hit my 1984 shop manual when I discovered I was looking at the wrong book) I really think that either your TFI (thin film ignition module) was replaced. These have a finite life. The oldest one that I replaced was 23 years old after about 125,000 miles from my 1984. The youngest was about 14 years old after about 125,000 miles on my 1990. Either case, they should be replaced at or before 100,000 miles.

surfaaron said:
Thanks guys!OldSchool, as usual you are more than helpfull. I may need some help with finding some of these things to check but thanks for the info. I will check these things and let you know. One thing though, can I just pull a plug and check to see if there is spark like I used to do on my old trucks? Thanks again for the help. Way to broke to take it to a mecanic.
Click to expand...
You're welcome.
We're all feeling the economic squeeze so we do understand.
I too used to 'pull a wire to test for spark' until I learned that a brand new stock ignition coil can discharge 35,000 volts. Even an old one can discharge 20,000 volts. Now that I'm over 40, I'm not too comfortable with the prospect of having that much juice possibly entering my hand and exiting through my foot or other hand. So ... us broke Dude's BORROW a friend's timing light and use it to test for spark. Once properly connected, you could pull the trigger and point it at anything (except your eyes) while a helper turns the ignition to START. If it flashes, then you're getting spark on the wire being tested.
mespock said:
Old School is Da man...
Click to expand...
Thanks but there are others that have WAY more knowledge than me.
I've just made more mistakes with Mark VIIs than most people :)

"Expearence is the abillity to reconise a misteak befor you mak it agan."
 
I pulled the manuals and couldn't find the part.. I haven't looked at the electrical diagrams yet.. it would be a wild goose chase.

I went through all my receipts from this mechanic but for some reason this
particular work order is not in there. This shop has done various work for me, like new alternator, air conditioning recharge, some smog work etc.
He sorta knows me and I'll call today and ask if they can pull up a record of this job.
---------
As for pulling a plug and grounding it to check for spark, i concur that it's not a great idea.

The coil builds up very high voltage... so high that it can jump through the air, across the spark plug's electrodes. Suppose your hand slips and the plug's base is not "grounded". You won't see a spark.
This doesn't mean a spark wasn't created. It only means the spark didn't jump the plug gap.

When a high tension coil builds up all that energy, the energy has to go somewhere. It will spark somewhere in the circuit at the point of least resistance... and it could spark across the coil's internal wires.

These coil wires are insulated to prevent it, but it happens. When it happens the lightening strike pokes holes in the wire's insulation.. very bad for the coil. The coil will spark internally across that burned insulation spot (low resistance path) rather than across the spark plug gap... i.e. the coil is toast.

It's easiest to use an inductive (clamp-on) timing light or a neon spark detector. If money is tight, get cheapo stuff from harborfreight.com
Xenon inductive timing light.. $14.99
You can't fix cars without basic tools.. so scrounge some up, somewhere.
 
Well, I was wrong.. it was the EEC relay.

The shop was closed last Saturday but I called today, and she had the record for that job.

4 years ago..
Replaced the EEC Relay
Parts, $28. Labor, $103.

As I understand it:
When starting, the fuel pump is controlled by two relays. One is the "fuel pump relay". This one simply allows power to flow to the pump, or cuts it off.

The other is the EEC relay, and is controlled by the EEC module (the computer). It connects and disconnects the pump relay. So, one relay controls the other.

------
When you turn the ignition key to RUN, the EEC module detects that the engine is not running. And, since the engine is not running, fuel pressure is (probably) zero, which the module also detects.

Since injectors need some fuel pressure behind them, the EEC module turns on the EEC relay.. and this powers up the fuel pump relay, and the pump runs. This provides fuel pressure in the fuel rail before the engine even begins to crank over.
-------
If you don't turn the ignition key further to START within one second, a timer in the EEC module disconnects the EEC relay. This shuts the fuel pump off. But, by this time, the fuel rail is pressurized.

If you do turn the key to START the EEC module takes direct control of the fuel pump relay (and the fuel pump) while the engine cranks and afterwards. Meanwhile, the EEC relay is cut out of the circuit.
----------

This setup pre-pressurizes the fuel system, which is (almost always) necessary to start (or restart) the car. After the car is started, things change a little..
 
Relayed The Module

Elessee said:
Well, I was wrong.. it was the EEC relay.

The shop was closed last Saturday but I called today, and she had the record for that job.

4 years ago..
Replaced the EEC Relay
Parts, $28. Labor, $103...
Click to expand...
Excellent write up!
THIS is the information that I encourage EVERYONE to share!
Never feel that your experience, be it an air filter replacement or a complete wire harness, is too trivial to share with the Lincoln community!

Thank you very much!

brentalan said:
True. I'm forever indebted to him for saving my grandfather's cougar from the crusher.
Click to expand...
The FLM community thanks you Brent. WE did it the RIGHT way by ENSURING that the bone stock, 1976 Cougar got into the hands of a TRUE collector/restorer. At least TWICE, I was approached by someone saying, "I'll buy the hood ornament for $200.00" Each time, my response was something like, "No. The car MUST be preserved, so pay the full asking price and you'll have a car to carry that hood ornament around with" :) It worked REALLY well to weed out the Not-Too-Serious lurkers.

BTW, I just posted the pictures from that rescue at:
http://thelincolnmarkviiclub.org/Gallery/SavedSeventySix

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread <g>
 
I am going to start trying to track down the problem today. I have the next two days off so here we go. I am going to take the advice and get a timing light and am also going to pick up a fuel pressure gauge. Any advice on what kind to get and what to stay away from. Will let you all know how it goes and I am sure I will have a question or two on how to check things out. Thanks again for all your help.
 
Cool John, thanks for the pics!!!!!


Surfaaron, keep us up to date on progress!
 
surfaaron said:
I am going to start trying to track down the problem today. I have the next two days off so here we go. I am going to take the advice and get a timing light and am also going to pick up a fuel pressure gauge. Any advice on what kind to get and what to stay away from. Will let you all know how it goes and I am sure I will have a question or two on how to check things out. Thanks again for all your help.
Click to expand...

maint_11.gif

Something like this should work :)
 
Last edited:
surfaaron said:
I am going to start trying to track down the problem today. I have the next two days off so here we go. I am going to take the advice and get a timing light and am also going to pick up a fuel pressure gauge. Any advice on what kind to get and what to stay away from. Will let you all know how it goes and I am sure I will have a question or two on how to check things out. Thanks again for all your help.
Click to expand...

I think I found a way for you to test the pre-pressurization of the fuel system without any tools. My starting problem was lack of fuel due to a bad EEC power relay, as explained in a previous post. This is a test for that relay.

-----------
When you turn the ignition key to RUN, a couple things may happen and a couple always happen..

One thing that may happen is the pump that pumps up the air suspension may go on. This system is active for about an hour after the car is shut off.
Another pump that runs with just the key-turn is the hydraulic brake pump. It pre-pumps brake fluid pressure.
--------------------
Another is the fuel pump. This is the one we're trying to diagnose.

Any one or all three of these pumps may run when you turn the key. It would be nearly impossible to know which pump is running or not by the sound, since the pump sounds are mixed together...
----------

But, if the car has been sitting for over an hour, the air suspension system is inactive, and turning the key to RUN won't activate it. That pump won't run until you actually start the engine.
Even if the suspension system is active, that pump shuts off once the air suspension has pumped and adjusted itself, which might require a minute or so.
----------
The other.. the brake fluid pump, will run if brake pressure is below normal. You can see the orange "Check Anti-lock Brakes" lamp while it pumps up. That lamp and the pump will go off once pressure has been built up. This might normally require about 20 seconds or so..
------

Once the air suspension and brake pumps have shut off you can turn the key OFF and back ON again, and those pumps will not run.. all will be quiet.. except for a less loud, higher pitched buzzing sound. That sound will last for one second and then stop. That sound is the fuel pump .. it's running and pre-pressurizing the fuel rail where the fuel injectors are..
Every time you turn the ignition OFF and back to RUN you should hear that one-second buzzz.. It's not very loud. I tested this in a fairly quiet garage, where it is easy to detect.

If you do hear it, your EEC power relay and the fuel pump relay and the fuel pump are OK. Fuel is being pre-pressurized and you probably don't need to check fuel pressure.

Get in the car and close the door.
Turn the ignition key to RUN.
Wait until all is quiet.
Turn the ignition OFF.
Turn the key to RUN, and listen for the one-second buzzzz. Turn the key off and on couple times to make sure..
 
I have fuel pressure, but no spark. A local mecanic suggested the ignition module would be a great place to start. My Markvll has 100k on it and still has the original one in it. He said they usually last any where from 50 to 100k. I found one for $46 and the tool for $6. Think I might give it a shot. I will let you guys know how it goes. Thanks Elesse for the idea for checking the pump. It worked great and I also checked the pressure at the fuel rail and it all checks out.
 
GOT IT FIXED!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was the ignition module. Cost me $50 bucks for tool and part. Took me about 20mins. Thanks again to everyone who hlped out. Now, what would cause the idle to go up and down. This has always happend but I have just lived with it. When it sits and idles for a couple of minutes it will start to go up and down. Not much, from 600 at idle up to 8 or9 and down to 4 or5. It will do this when you first start it mostly but some times when I am at a stop after driving it for a while. Let me know what you guys think. Next we will tackle the brake light that goes on and off.
 
Tfi

surfaaron said:
GOT IT FIXED!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was the ignition module. Cost me $50 bucks for tool and part. Took me about 20mins. Thanks again to everyone who hlped out.
Click to expand...
(Everyone says) You're welcome. I ~thought~ it was the TFI :)
surfaaron said:
Now, what would cause the idle to go up and down. This has always happend but I have just lived with it. When it sits and idles for a couple of minutes it will start to go up and down. Not much, from 600 at idle up to 8 or9 and down to 4 or5. It will do this when you first start it mostly but some times when I am at a stop after driving it for a while. Let me know what you guys think.
Click to expand...
O2 sensors, but I'm sure you'll start another thread about that (hint hint).
surfaaron said:
Next we will tackle the brake light that goes on and off.
Click to expand...
Complete fluid flush, but I'm sure you'll start another thread about that (hint hint).
 
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