Mechanic, dealership, and I at wits end - '04 LS stalling out

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cthedoor

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Hello everyone -

This forum is my last hope at salvaging my '04 V6 LS. I was driving home about a month ago and 10 - 15 minutes from my destination, started to feel the engine giving way - the majority of the gas I was trying to give it just wasn't giving. It herked and jerked as I got closer to home, but eventually stalled out, lost power steering, and pulled over to the side. Oil pressure and battery symbol on dash - nothing particularly telling there.

I checked the dipstick and seemed kinda low on oil, so put a bit more in, cursed my luck, and started 'er back up. I was able to get it going - weakly - and continued to keep the engine revved while sitting at stoplights in the hope that would do something. Managed to make it closer and amble home over the course of 10ish minutes - looking for street, city parking - which I couldn't find quickly enough before I stalled out completely in front of someone's driveway. Starting up from here gave one or two revs before petering out - couldn't keep her alive enough to get into gear, let alone park elsewhere. Then, I let it sit for a few hours (this was 1am - came back around 4am) and tried, which, to my surprise, yielded me a good 45 seconds of driving that landed me in a safer spot to park.

Got towed to a local mechanic and after 6ish hours of labor and incorrectly diagnosing the throttle body or crank sensor, told me those words that nobody wants to hear - "you're better off taking it to a Ford dealership". Said it was losing injection pulse and was likely an electrical issue. I wiped my brow and begrudgingly got it towed to my closest one... where the vehicle has been, stumping the "knights of the round table" (that's what the service manager has called their meeting of the minds to figure out what's wrong) for almost the past 4 weeks.

They said they thought it was the tuning valves - so got those replaced. Didn't do anything but "make it idle better" (though idling for 30 sec is not the purpose of a vehicle). Then said they'll need to take the intake apart and see if there's any wiring rot or issues in there - nothing apparent. Then said they need to look deeper, under the fuel rail to see if the issue lies somewhere unseen. Got a call back today that, more than $1500 and a month deep, they still can't diagnose what the problem is, let alone fix it. Said they don't know exactly what to do next and that I'll get another call on Monday.

I'm about to push this goddamn car into the nearest lake and be done with it at this point. It's only got 57k miles but it's feeling like more of a pain than anything. I'm sunk-cost fallacy-ing myself into ruin over here. Any thoughts? Similar experience? Diagnoses??? Anything would be appreciated - thank you, all!!
 
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Assuming that they have made all the reasonable checks, fuel pressure, compression, air flow, MAF, and so on (Sadly, I think that this is actually an unreasonable assumption), I would tend to suspect the PCM itself.
 
@clubairth when you say misdiagnosed throttlebody do you mean they replaced the throttlebody? Did they pull any codes if so what were they? When i have a electrical problem i start by checking the fuses, diodes and relays and work my way to the problem from there.
 
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Have they been working on this for a month, or has this sat over there for a month? There's a difference between the two
 
joegr said:
Assuming that they have made all the reasonable checks, fuel pressure, compression, air flow, MAF, and so on (Sadly, I think that this is actually an unreasonable assumption), I would tend to suspect the PCM itself.
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Since the vehicle only has 57k... would it be safe to assume that it is plagued with the original defective coils TSB???

Which would then cause PCM issues?
 
joegr said:
Assuming that they have made all the reasonable checks, fuel pressure, compression, air flow, MAF, and so on (Sadly, I think that this is actually an unreasonable assumption), I would tend to suspect the PCM itself.
Click to expand...
Apologies for my delay here... but I think this is where my mind is at as well. Seems like investigating the PCM may be the last-resort available before considering more forlorn, sad alternatives.
...however, they told me that they aren't able to buy aftermarket PCMs and that I'd need to bring one to them in order to get it installed. :rolleyes: If I go this route, any chance we know of a reliable online PCM seller?

Buckie said:
@clubairth when you say misdiagnosed throttlebody do you mean they replaced the throttlebody? Did they pull any codes if so what were they? When i have a electrical problem i start by checking the fuses, diodes and relays and work my way to the problem from there.
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I think you meant to reply to me here, @Buckie - but yes, the first mechanics replaced the throttlebody. I can't say I have any OBD codes available from throughout this whole process, but I did ask about fuses and such and they said that wasn't it. But to echo what @joegr said, impossible for me to have absolute faith without being there myself.

HRLNKN said:
Have they been working on this for a month, or has this sat over there for a month? There's a difference between the two
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Well - got it towed on a 7/23, got a call back that work began the next day. Got a call 7/25 about the incorrect tuning valves repair - heard back 7/26 that it was incorrect and they needed to take apart the intake. I mulled it over and fought them on pricing for two weeks before giving the OK to continue the week of 8/5. This continued until I got the final updates above on Friday 8/16. So - a month, on and off.

04_Sport_LS said:
Since the vehicle only has 57k... would it be safe to assume that it is plagued with the original defective coils TSB???

Which would then cause PCM issues?
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You've piqued my interest here, @04_Sport_LS - was this a known issue on this vehicle? Would defective coils cause the "starts up briefly then dies" behavior? I think the thing that confuses me most is how it can start up but can't stay running. (Also seems to be some correlation between it running longer after periods of inactivity - e.g. the few hours I let it sit between use allowing me to drive for 45 sec).

Thank you all for your help, expertise & thoughts on this - I've yet to speak with the dealership since making this post (despite them saying I'd get a call yesterday) but will keep the thread updated if I get any new info. I appreciate it!!
 
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At this point I'm starting to think you have a defective mass airflow sensor, or possibly a bad throttle body.

Not sure if the coil issue was for the V6 also. Was well known on the V8 though... and the bad coils would fry the PCM
 
This problem could have something to do with the PCV system, which sits down below the lower intake manifold. It had a known weak point in the 90 degree rubber hose connecting the PCV to the breather line that ends up at the throttle body. Those hoses tended to turn into liquid and would cause loss of idle. The pipe that connects to the elbow for the PCV to pipe transition then is connected to a rubber adapter that changes the diameter from about 5/8" to 8 mm or 5/16" with a plastic hardline pipe that shoots to the throttle body. The transitional rubber hose adapter at the back of the intake can break open but the break can remain invisible and normal looking. But if you remove the hose from the throttle body and lift that hard tube up a bit, that adapter can be cracked open. The rubber elbow under the lower intake for the PCV valve is also where rodents like to set up camp. Every time I got under mine, I would find a new nest. So the hose can be difficult to see due to nest materials. No TSB ever existed for V6 coils, but due to the design of the intake, where it drapes over the right side engine head, I always changed the 3 coils and plugs under that section because they were only accessible when the upper intake manifold was removed. I would have the fuel pressure checked also, as your car is old enough to have a lot of bad components, despite the low miles. There is also a sensor or similar device at the back end of the injector rails that can fail and cause serious problems, possibly even a no-start condition. I had an extra that my friend George needed for his V6 and that fixed his problem. I would need to dig up old messages to see what his car's symptoms were. I believe that at the time, there may not have been any replacement parts available, hence George needing someone's help here. Heyjewel is George. If I find his messages, I will reply with data from his issue.
 
The issue that Heyjewel had was a bad fuel pressure sensor. Apparently, the car could not run. Check to see if they have tried that, as well as the PCV hose checks. The hose integrity could be checked from pulling the hose from the throttle body and pressurizing it with a smoke tester. That would verify all hoses from the TB to the PCV valve in one shot.
 
Back in the days I bought a brand new 1974 Volvo 164; it had the inline 6 cylinder. After about 6 months of ownership, the car would loose rpm and die when coming to a stop after driving on the highway (55 mph) for about half hour. The engine would start right away but die; the only way to start it and keep it running was to hold down the accelerator slightly so it would idle at a higher rpm. It took various dealers about 7 months of changing computers and other components associated with the fuel injection for finally one of them pinpointing the issue. It was the EGR valve. After driving on the highway and the engine possibly getting hotter, the EGR would stick and stay open when coming to a stop. Due to the extra air the fuel mixture was too lean for the engine to run at normal idle. Once apparently the engine cooled down a bit when driving the lower streets speed limit, idle went back to normal and the engine didn't die no more. I had to replace that EGR valve like every 9 months. After 2 years I got rid of the Volvo and bought a brand new American iron - a 1976 Pontiac Gran Prix.

Suggestion, check the EGR system, clean any carbon build up and replace if needed. The EGR on the Volvo was vacuum operated; I don't know on the LS if it is vacuum or electronic.
 
Thank you all for your thoughts here - I've given these ideas/next steps to the folks at the dealership and will let you know how things progress. They still think it may be a wiring corrosion issue from the phone call I just had - but we'll see.
 
Hello again, all -

The dealership officially threw in the towel. They've decided not to investigate further because they continue to suspect it's a wiring issue, and that's too open-ended for them to tackle. :confused:

At this point, I'm likely to put it on Craigslist for whoever wants it. The alternatives would be calling up Lincoln themselves or towing it to another shop to endure further headache and loss of income... which I'm not completely opposed to yet, but again, sunk cost fallacy is hitting pretty hard.

If anyone around the Philadelphia region is looking to tow away an 04 V6 LS with 57k miles, minor cosmetic damage, and front seats whose backs have fallen off, let me know.
 
Here's the write-up from the shop:

"Engine stalls soon after ignition. Retrieved codes in PCM p0600, p0663, many other codes in modules, codes related to concern led to intake manifold tuning valve malfunction in bank 2, due to age recommend replacing both. Recheck after replacement parts, still losing injector pulse. Additional pinpoint tests per shop guide monitoring pids, inspecting power and grounds, was able to get test light to flicker at end of injector harness while wiggling harness. Remove intake to inspect wiring. Found wiring pinched under fuel rail. Remove rail and wiring corroded. Over lay main power feed to 6 injectors. Reassemble, still losing pulse. Wiring is corroded throughout harness, too many wired [sp?] to overlay, no further repairs at this time".

Pretty sure I'll be getting rid of 'er sometime this week unless anyone can surmise a course of action from that or is interested in taking it off my hands. Real shame given the mileage and overall condition otherwise. Either way, thanks for your help/thoughts throughout this debacle, all!
 
cthedoor said:
Here's the write-up from the shop:

"Engine stalls soon after ignition. Retrieved codes in PCM p0600, p0663, many other codes in modules, codes related to concern led to intake manifold tuning valve malfunction in bank 2, due to age recommend replacing both. Recheck after replacement parts, still losing injector pulse. Additional pinpoint tests per shop guide monitoring pids, inspecting power and grounds, was able to get test light to flicker at end of injector harness while wiggling harness. Remove intake to inspect wiring. Found wiring pinched under fuel rail. Remove rail and wiring corroded. Over lay main power feed to 6 injectors. Reassemble, still losing pulse. Wiring is corroded throughout harness, too many wired [sp?] to overlay, no further repairs at this time".

Pretty sure I'll be getting rid of 'er sometime this week unless anyone can surmise a course of action from that or is interested in taking it off my hands. Real shame given the mileage and overall condition otherwise. Either way, thanks for your help/thoughts throughout this debacle, all!
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I have a harness at home that I can send to you. If it is just the harness for the injectors, it should cover it. I can check it Monday, as I am out of town. Mine is from 1st generation V6, which may be compatible.
 
milehighmikey said:
I have a harness at home that I can send to you. If it is just the harness for the injectors, it should cover it. I can check it Monday, as I am out of town. Mine is from 1st generation V6, which may be compatible.
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This is a kind offer; I've actually been lollygagging quite a bit on getting rid of the vehicle, so I'm open to this course of action. Willing to follow through with it as a last-ditch effort - I'll shoot you a DM. Thank you!
 
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