MK VII not starting after engine is warmed up

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gorm4660

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My 84 Mark VII LSC starts just fine in the morning when the engine is cold. However after driving it more than a mile, when I try to restart the car it either turns over very slowly or just makes a clacking noise, and the only way to get it going is use the boost charger or whack the starter motor itself. I have previously replaced the solenoid and it checks out fine. I am wondering if my starter motor is just wearing out? Also my alternator is charging great, battery posts and cable connections are clean and tight,............ Any Ideas?.................. Thank you for any suggestions

gorm4660
 
It could be that the starter does not like getting hot, or it could be the wiring to the start overheating. Have you pulled codes?
 
Hmmm. If it were my car my first thought would be a worn starter and if I were going to "throw a part at it" that's what I'd throw. That being said All electrical diagnostics start at the battery and work all the way down to the problem component. To ensure a proper diagnosis I would start with a battery test (ck water, clean/tight terminals, load test), then I'd check the ground cable and its connection at the engine, then I'd follow the positive cable to the solenoid, checking its condition and connection(s) at the solenoid. Then I'd follow the positive cable out of the solenoid and down to the starter, again checking its condition and connections. Here if I'm not mistaken you may find yet another solenoid mounted on top of your starter (not sure of your year's specs). Either way, if you've verified all the above checks to be "good" then it's reasonable sense to remove your starter assembly and have it bench tested at your favorite auto parts store. Just don't forget to remove the negative cable from the battery before putting a wrench to the starter. I hope this helps

P.S. don't forget jack stands and turn your air suspension off before jacking.
 
But how do you test a starter hot? He says it starts fine cold, it's when its hot that the problems start. I suppose if you take the starter to autozone or something, ask if they have a heat gun to heat up the starter and see if the heat slows the starter down. Just a suggestion.:confused:
 
If the starter is bad hot it's going to be bad cold as well. Diagnostic equipment will pick up the things that our five senses won't. Even though it's "working" cold it can still show an excessive amp draw but function enough to start the engine when cold. However this put another lightbulb on in my head. Most reputable shops have a diagnostic scope or a battery/starting/charging analyzer. Get the car warmed up, then drive it to the shop and have them test the starter via amp draw test, if it's the starter it'll probably be found there.
 
Yup - TFI

(TFI) Thick Film Ignition Controller Module, also known as that little thing on the side of the distributer. Motocraft Part number E3EF-12A297-A1A. Aftermarket modules work too.

DSCF0163.sized.jpg


Wow. I could type pages about this little jewel but I'll try to keep it short.

I had 30 minutes to kill so I replaced the one in OldSchool3, the 1984 Continental Mark VII and WOW, what a wonderful difference! It feels great to have a car idling somewhere around 600 - 800 rpms and you keep saying to yourself, "Is this thing on?"

One of the things that I failed to intitially type along with my last quick fix, was the WHY. So to answer the question of, "Why did you change your TFI?" here is a list of the gremlins that no longer live in my car:
hard starting
long cold starts (high rpms)
a miss in the engine at idle
when hot, stalling
when hot and when hard braking (no abs on the 1984), stalling
when hot, no restart including no cranking (I changed like three parts to figure this out)
when hot, hunting/surging idle
when hot, unable to recover from a low idle, stalling

Two big warnings before tackling this job.
1) You absolutely need a TFI removal tool
2) Distributor casings may seize in the lower intake due to dissimilar metals. Ask HizHonor and a few others to explain their experiences.

I disconnected my battery.

I removed the distributor cap from the distributor and moved it (undisturbed) up an out of the way of the distributor.

I marked a spot on the distributor adjacent the hold down nut.

I loosened the hold down nut one complete turn and the distributor turned. This is a rarity that I contribute only to my leaky coolant hoses and valve covers. Years of oil and etholyn-glycol soaking into the penetration of the distributor into the lower intake is the ONLY way that this thing moved this easy.

'I musta dun sumtin good sumplace'

I disconnected the wire harness from the TFI.

I turned the distributor to get at the two bolts for the TFI and removed them.

I pushed the TFI down to disconnect it's three top pins from the distributor.

I cleaned the mating faces and applied a very thin film of dielectric grease to the faces and male and female connections.

I installed the new TFI.

I used grease to holt the bolts into the TFI removal tool before reinstalling them.

I connected the wire harness.

I returned the distributor to the MARKED position (yeah, I'll time it ... one day) and tightend the hold down bolt.

I reinstalled the distributor cap.

I reconnected the battery.

I started the car and had to drive it a few miles before it quieted down to a whisper. It responded to the compressor kicking on and off by PROPERLY modulating the idle speed to compensate for the hp used to turn the engaged AC compressor. A few test power stops showed NO stalling. A few miles down I-95 at 60 mph (yeah, I drive slow ... and?!?!) showed NO pops or drops or misses or anything but steady speed maintained by the cruise control. There were no delays when taking off (launching?) from a dead stop.

The motor mounts still need to be replaced.

The driver's side door trim still needs to be repaired.

The AC system still needs one more can of r134a.

My winter beater starts, drives, and stops properly. I'm happy.
 
And In Old Schools Case,,,,,,,, The Nut Behind The Wheeeeellllll Is Still Loose!!!!!!!!,,,,,!l,o,l, ,,,,hi J.d.,,,,yuck ,,yuck ,,,,yuck ,,,oh A Wise Guy
 
Starter

Module would not cause the slow cranking but would cause the stall when hot or no start, but cranks, when hot.
Oldschool1..You did not mention to check the pick-up coil before reinstalling the module...those can also turn "punky" or soft and cause the module to fail as well under high heat and age. And this replacemant is a whole other proceedure.
New O/E module is a 5U2Z-12A297-A listing for 166.53 and cost LVC $97.42.
the pic-up is a E8PZ-12A112-A listing $74.44 and LVC is $43.55
I have sold plenty of modules to hot rod guys that have tried the aftermarket one and they always end up buying O/E.
The starters are F3LY-11002-ARM listing for 128.78 and LVC is 96.54 and plus the $25.00 core.

Max Zuckerberg
Parts Specialist
Five Star Ford
7100 east Mc Dowell Road
Scottsdale AZ 85257
Direct 1-800-866-1520 ext 236
Fax 1-480-949-8478
parts@fivestarford.com
 
kahunasteve said:
And In Old Schools Case,,,,,,,, The Nut Behind The Wheeeeellllll Is Still Loose!!!!!!!!,,,,,!l,o,l, ,,,,hi J.d.,,,,yuck ,,yuck ,,,,yuck ,,,oh A Wise Guy
Click to expand...
Yup.
Good to see you back at a keyboard Buddy.
mrzeee said:
Starter

Module would not cause the slow cranking but would cause the stall when hot or no start, but cranks, when hot.
Oldschool1..You did not mention to check the pick-up coil before reinstalling the module...those can also turn "punky" or soft and cause the module to fail as well under high heat and age. And this replacemant is a whole other proceedure.
New O/E module is a 5U2Z-12A297-A listing for 166.53 and cost LVC $97.42.
the pic-up is a E8PZ-12A112-A listing $74.44 and LVC is $43.55
I have sold plenty of modules to hot rod guys that have tried the aftermarket one and they always end up buying O/E.
The starters are F3LY-11002-ARM listing for 128.78 and LVC is 96.54 and plus the $25.00 core.

Max Zuckerberg
Parts Specialist
Five Star Ford
7100 east Mc Dowell Road
Scottsdale AZ 85257
Direct 1-800-866-1520 ext 236
Fax 1-480-949-8478
parts@fivestarford.com
Click to expand...
I was unaware of these items. Are they indigenoius to a specific engine type (such as my 1984 mntioned above) or generic for all Mark VIIs?
artbaileyjr said:
This is a pretty classic starter symptom. Were it me, I'd stick a starter in it and call it money well spent, regardless.

Art
Click to expand...
Possibly.
But a bad starter would not meet all of the problems listed by the original poster.
 
Thanks for the props.

My hands on experience is limited but yeah, I've either discovered or paid someone to discover just about every ailment a stock Mark VII can have. Whenever you Guys bring something up that I haven't seen, I appreciate it and later share the knowledge.

Nowadays, I'm more of a historian and collector than anything else.
 
Oldschool,
Actually, when the rear bushing get warn and the armature begins to make contact with the field windings, that's exactly what happens. There is a period where they are very sensitive to temperature. A smack with a hammer will often times get them working again, as it mis-aligns the armature relative to the field windings, but it's a short time before they fail again. This is most common with the non-permanent magnet units. (Pre 90) It will also draw extremely high amperage causing the starter relay and pull in magnet on the starter to chatter.

Art
 
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