Only overheats with heater on.

[Kbwalker23]

Hi, I'm another new guy.
I have a 05 Lincoln LS 3.9l that I bought as a repo.
Needless to say it is a bit rough around the edges.

The main issue I'm having now is when you run the heater in the car, it overheats within a few minutes, and stays hot.

I've run it a few times (5-10 miles fully warmed up) without ever touching the Heater (or A/C) and it never rises above the half way mark. Before this started occurring it would overheat at idle after 5-10 minutes of running.

Took it by a mechanic whose done some work on it and he had said "Since it was running rough I did a block test and it failed"

Now I don't know if he actually did or did not do the test, but ive had 2 other vehicles with cracked blocks/warped heads and they over heated every time I drove it, regardless of weather/distance/anything.

I've looked through the forums and I didn't find anything on this issue directly, so any insight or suggestions would be cool.

-Repairs made to the car,
Full a/c system - 1500$
Dual Tempature Control - 400$
Thermostat(w/housing) - 100$

-Known Issued
Intake Manifold Gasket
Misfire/Misfire on Start Up codes
Emissions Codes (could be IMG related?)

-Other info
No smoke white or blue, on start up.
No Direct Oil leaks or noticeable burning(seen or smelled)
No clinging/or abstract noise from engine.

 

[RigsLS]

RE: Full a/c system - 1500$

Are we to assume this is referring to refreshing the entire plastic cooling system or as stated the AC got repaired with a new compressor?

In any event the plastic cooling system parts need to be replaced most likely, also the degas bottle will most likely have micro cracks in it.

It is overheating due to air in system. You can try the bleed procedure on it and see if you can get all the air out but if the plastics are degraded it will do no good for the long term.

Needle at the half way mark doesn't mean much if it's overheating when using the heat or not, or was overheating during idle. If there is air in the system it's overheating.

Thermostat and housing replaced? This is then subtracted from the list of parts needed to complete the refresh of the plastics.

"Since it was running rough I did a block test and it failed" = false.

Gasket and block are not a common failing point on these cars.

It was or is running rough because it needs brand new OE coils and NGK plugs. The plug well o-rings could have leaked oil into the plug well and cause grief, this is not uncommon, neither is the passenger wiper arm cowl gasket leaking water or washer spray directly down onto the coil covers and seeping into the plug well and damaging the expensive coils.


Myself, I'd honestly simply start with checking the degas bottle coolant level and performing the bleed procedure ... take it from there. System has to be air tight. If it leaks or lets air in, it's done and need the entire plastic cooling system parts replaced.

GLWR

 

[joegr]

You need to do all this: http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/showthread.php?91092-GenII-LS8-Cooling-System-Overhaul
I think that does include doing the thermostat and housing again as well, because based on your symptoms, I am betting that you put the Dorman thermostat housing/crossover/assembly in. All the parts need to be OEM.

Why was the DATC replaced?
You may need the DCCV and aux pump too, if either is leaking.

Engine is running rough because of marginal COPs. Replace all ignition coils (must be Motorcraft), and all spark plugs (recommend NGK). Make sure the new plug gaps are exactly 1.0mm (you will have adjust at least some of them).

 

[Kbwalker23]

Thanks for the responses, appreciate your time.
My only question or comment would have to be, that I drove the car around for 3 hours last night, (town and highway) and the cat never even acted like it was going to over heat. This was in red light to red-light and open highway, and honestly I hit speeds over 90 at one point. Which if there was air directly in the system wouldn't it have gotten hot?

The Dual temp control was replaced due to one side of the car blowing max heat while the other blew at the set tempature.

One thing I forgot to mention is the heater started blowing cold the same day this started happening.

From what I've read randomly around this suggests there's air stuck in the heatercore, or its clogged, or compromised and is sucking in air.
Is that correct or no?

And with the A/C replacement the condenser was replaced, as well as a part under the dash, (Sorry for the vagueness, I'm unfamiliar with A/C components,)


If any of this changes your perspective or thoughts please let me know, thanks!
I'll check the dgos for any cracks or leaks as well.

OH-- and the windshield wipers and sprayers were completely malfunctioning when I bought the car, immediately upon starting the car it would spray fluid past the trunk (literally) and the motors would whine and push the wipers roughly a 1/10th of a rotation.
I pulled the fuse until I can figure out which motors are needed to replace them.

 

[joegr]

That symptom is the DCCV 99% of the time, not the DATC. Are you sure it wasn't the DCCV?

Your heater cores (there are two of them, not just one) are not clogged, and it wouldn't cause an overheat if they were.

I know that you believe your case is different than the hundreds of other threads on here about overheating, but it is not.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/showthread.php?91092-GenII-LS8-Cooling-System-Overhaul
The same goes for the coils and plugs.

You have air mixing in from a leak in the heater circuit, plus the Dorman thermostat assembly is known to be very marginal.
You won't be able to see the cracks in the degas bottle without removing it. At that point, why not replace it? Do not use Dorman or any other aftermarket brand.
It's unlikely that you really needed to replace the expansion valve (part under the dash).
The wipers and the sprayer are all controlled by the "smart" wiper motor assembly. The electronics can be replaced separately from the motor. BTW, you need to remove the degas bottle to get the wiper motor assembly out. Better to do both at the same time.

 

[LS4me]

I know that you believe your case is different than the hundreds of other threads on here about overheating, but it is not.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/showthread.php?91092-GenII-LS8-Cooling-System-Overhaul
The same goes for the coils and plugs.

I wonder when we will finally stop seeing new threads on overheating... I'd wager that well over 50% of the new threads are about overheating.

 

[Kbwalker23]

I wonder when we will finally stop seeing new threads on overheating... I'd wager that well over 50% of the new threads are about overheating.

The overheating threads I found were either "overheating at idle" "overheating with a/c on" "overheating in stop and go traffic" and most of the solutions were either a fan issue, a sensor issue, or a coolant component issue, ie., water pump, not bleed correctly, and mine is ONLY overheating with the Heater on, or when at idle for extremely long times which I know is a fan/sensor issue. And I've had a "professionals opinion" too, who was wrong.

And every thing I've found off this site (not on a LS though) said when the heater core blows cold and your car overheats when the heater is on, the heater core is either clogged, or pushing air into the system.

-- I also just made a 45 miles trip going roughly 85 the entire time, (faster to pass) and the car never read warmer then the normal operating temp.
(Texas highways - 75-80)

 

[Kbwalker23]

DCCV? Sorry unfamiliar with this shorthand.
And I've seen a lot of time the degas bottle being an issue.
I'm willing to try that before doing any heater core work, as it's a lot cheaper, but say I do change it, bleed the system properly, and it continues to blow cold air on heat, and over heat with the heater on. Is it completely impossible that one of the heater cores are the issue, or is the system set up in a way where it can't effect the entire coolant flow (or add air) in that way?
I've really only worked on my 5.9l magnum Durango extensivley, so I'm really unfamiliar with this cars set up.

---Replacing the dual temp control fixed the problem and it hasn't happened again? The mechanic had a program that shares common repairs on specific cars, and the DTC was replaced 62% of the time that the problem was solved and was cheaper, and it has seemed to work?

 

[milehighmikey]

DCCV? Sorry unfamiliar with this shorthand.
And I've seen a lot of time the degas bottle being an issue.
I'm willing to try that before doing any heater core work, as it's a lot cheaper, but say I do change it, bleed the system properly, and it continues to blow cold air on heat, and over heat with the heater on. Is it completely impossible that one of the heater cores are the issue, or is the system set up in a way where it can't effect the entire coolant flow (or add air) in that way?
I've really only worked on my 5.9l magnum Durango extensivley, so I'm really unfamiliar with this cars set up.

---Replacing the dual temp control fixed the problem and it hasn't happened again? The mechanic had a program that shares common repairs on specific cars, and the DTC was replaced 62% of the time that the problem was solved and was cheaper, and it has seemed to work?

DCCV is dual climate control valve, a valve that directs water to one or both heater cores. The acronym you were using is for the dash mounted dual automatic temperature control electronic controller, which fails very rarely.

 

[Kbwalker23]

Oh, well I'm 90% sure the one you just named is the one he replaced. The part was around 200, and roughly 150 in labor? Some had tried to quote me a 1200 part that's under the dash that directs whether the heater or a/c is being directed into the car.
This part acted off of the electrical system when you use the dual temp by regulating each separate sides vents/tempature.

I know this is vague man, I apologize all of my mechanical experience is around a 88 firebird, a 02 RT Durango and a Honda prelude. Needless to say this car has more electrical components in one seat then those cars did in total lol.


On my real issue, I can run the car at 85-90 for an hour without it over heating, but as soon as I flip on the heater (which blows cold right now) it starts to over heat within a few minutes.

 

[joegr]

...Is it completely impossible that one of the heater cores are the issue...

Yes.
So, you believe it is the heater cores, a part that never seems to fail or clog, but you can't believe that it is the degas bottle (which is a part of the heater coolant loop, connected to the heater cores return line), or the rest of the parts that are known to cause this. Don't use the aftermarket (Dorman or otherwise) degas bottle.

... Some had tried to quote me a 1200 part that's under the dash that directs whether the heater or a/c is being directed into the car.
This part acted off of the electrical system when you use the dual temp by regulating each separate sides vents/tempature....

You are describing a blend air temperature door. This part does not even exist on the LS. Find someone that actually knows what they are working on! Look for shops that work on Jaguars.

...On my real issue, I can run the car at 85-90 for an hour without it over heating, but as soon as I flip on the heater (which blows cold right now) it starts to over heat within a few minutes.

You have been given the answer multiple times, but it seems you are refusing it.
Do all this http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/showthread.php?91092-GenII-LS8-Cooling-System-Overhaul and the problem will be solved. Yes, probably not every single one of those parts has failed yet, but when you do replace the failed parts and the system pressurizes, the remaining parts will fail days later. They're all made of the same stuff, and so the all fail at about the same time.

 

[Kbwalker23]

Yes.
So, you believe it is the heater cores, a part that never seems to fail or clog, but you can't believe that it is the degas bottle (which is a part of the heater coolant loop, connected to the heater cores return line), or the rest of the parts that are known to cause this. Don't use the aftermarket (Dorman or otherwise) degas bottle.



You are describing a blend air temperature door. This part does not even exist on the LS. Find someone that actually knows what they are working on! Look for shops that work on Jaguars.



You have been given the answer multiple times, but it seems you are refusing it.
Do all this http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/showthread.php?91092-GenII-LS8-Cooling-System-Overhaul and the problem will be solved. Yes, probably not every single one of those parts has failed yet, but when you do replace the failed parts and the system pressurizes, the remaining parts will fail days later. They're all made of the same stuff, and so the all fail at about the same time.

Nah man I'm not refusing, I said earlier I'm definitely going to try that first because it is a lot cheaper then any heater core work foresure, I was asking to this specificly because it was just shot down and I was told to go look at a post where the issue was overheating with the a/c or at idle/stop and go traffic, not the issue I'm having. Like the car is fine in all of those scenarios and I was making sure my post was actually read and not just given an answer that fixes the most common cases of overheating.
I apologize if I came off like I was saying tall were wrong, was just trying to clarify that the issues in those posts are not the same issues I'm having at all.

And I am going to try the fixes listed above, the car was a repo and was definitely not maintained by the previous owners, who only owned it since 85,000 miles, but that's still 30k of abuse.

My main thing is, if I have the car taken apart while I'm replacing the degas bottle and other components, is there anything I should look for regarding the cores or in any other aspect that of that system? Or would that never directly cause a fault in the cooling process?

And I do understand that, that part rarely ever fails and I would more then likely be wasting time, I just have limited money/time and Ive had 2 shops directly lie to me at this point.

And unfortunately I live in truck county, so there's tons of diesel mechanics, and little shops that do common imports, bUT there's only 1 non dealership shop that works on unique cars, and obviously they know that and it's not cheap.
So most of this I'm gonna have to either trust some mom and pop shop, or do it myself.

 

[Kbwalker23]

N/a

 

[Kbwalker23]

RE: Full a/c system - 1500$

Are we to assume this is referring to refreshing the entire plastic cooling system or as stated the AC got repaired with a new compressor?

In any event the plastic cooling system parts need to be replaced most likely, also the degas bottle will most likely have micro cracks in it.

It is overheating due to air in system. You can try the bleed procedure on it and see if you can get all the air out but if the plastics are degraded it will do no good for the long term.

Needle at the half way mark doesn't mean much if it's overheating when using the heat or not, or was overheating during idle. If there is air in the system it's overheating.

Thermostat and housing replaced? This is then subtracted from the list of parts needed to complete the refresh of the plastics.

"Since it was running rough I did a block test and it failed" = false.

Gasket and block are not a common failing point on these cars.

It was or is running rough because it needs brand new OE coils and NGK plugs. The plug well o-rings could have leaked oil into the plug well and cause grief, this is not uncommon, neither is the passenger wiper arm cowl gasket leaking water or washer spray directly down onto the coil covers and seeping into the plug well and damaging the expensive coils.


Myself, I'd honestly simply start with checking the degas bottle coolant level and performing the bleed procedure ... take it from there. System has to be air tight. If it leaks or lets air in, it's done and need the entire plastic cooling system parts replaced.

GLWR

I swung it by the shop yesterday and told him what yall had said, he did the bleed and checked all the fluid levels (I watched actually) and said he couldn't see any leaks from the degas but if it was micro-cracked he wouldn't be able to regardless. (He knows I can't afford a block or anything drastic).

We turned on the heater - Still blowing cold and withing 5 minutes the car over heated.

- Today took a 45mile trip (90 round trip) going roughly 85 with no heater or a/c. It never rose above normal operating temp.

I'm going to try and replace the degas bottle and the other few parts listed and see if it stops the overheating issue.

But why would the heater start blowing cold? (I now know there is 2 cores so even if 1 got clogged wouldn't it still blow hot air?)


- On which components got replaced during the a/c overhaul (same shop that tried to tell me the car needed a new blend door) they had said it was 3 main components, (the lot paid for this 1st repair, swung it in under the Lemon Laws here in TX) but I did not handle that directly.
He said the condenser would shoot metals shards throughout the system when it failed and that they had to replace it all?

And NGK plugs and any OE wires, any certain metal rating I should definitely get?
And I apologize but the intake manifold gasket, something I should definitely pay someone to do?

I've done one on my 5.9l magnum, but I could sit in the hood of that while working on it, and on a Chevy 350 that was pulled for my old firebird.

 

[joegr]

My personal opinion is that if you have to pay a shop to do this work, the LS (at its current age) is not going to be economically reasonable for you. (Not saying that you can't afford it, I don't know what you can afford. I am saying that if you have to pay labor for this and all the other stuff that it will need, you could handle payments on a much newer car.)
All the cooling system and coil/plug work is reasonable for DIY. This includes replacing the intake manifold gaskets, which has to be done to replace the cooling parts anyway.
I would suggest that you do all the cooling system work at the same time, not one part at a time. Doing it one part at a time will just be moving the problem around.
I would also suggest taking care of the wiper smart motor electronics at the same time is doing this work, or you will be repeating a lot of steps.

It's not the heater cores. If you really want to replace them, this is what it takes.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/showthread.php?76669-Dash-Board-Removal-Thread

Factory manual on the gen II LS (V8 only): http://deneau.info/ls/
Note that your 2005 is identical to the 2006.

 

[Kbwalker23]

I'll wait on the cores, I was just wondering on why they're blowing cold at this point. From what you've told me, I'm just going to start buying the replacement pieces for the cooling system (the plastic ones) and plugs/wires and the IMG, and see what the outcome is. It's seems like all of that will cost me around 400$ and I can dig into all of that myself. The cores I would pay someone and I didn't know there were 2 until tall told me.

Do you have a link for that electrical wiper component? Google has been pretty useless on this, I already tried to pull them and the diagram it had for it was wrong in a few spots, and didn't note the electrical price your talking about.

And I got rid of my payment car, just had a kid, and we have 2 vehicles, so I can afford to let this one sit, or just continue to drive it personally without a heater,

I just don't want to miss something small that ends up becoming a huge issue layer on that would of been simple.

So in your opinion, is it fine to drive since it only overheats with that on? Or is it tearing up additional components regardless?

Thanks for all yalls help!

 

[joegr]

The COPs (Ignition coils) are going to be just over $400 all by themselves. You keep saying plug wires, but this is a COP (Coil On Plug) system.

I've seen just the electronics module before, but right now I am only finding the complete assembly (motor with electronics attached). These don't seem to fail that much. It would probably be fairly safe to get a used one from a junkyard.

 

[RigsLS]

... have a 05 Lincoln LS 3.9l ... The main issue I'm having now is when you run the heater in the car, it overheats ...

Ok, one more time cuz it's Christmas.




~ The plastic cooling system needs to be rebuild (all at once with fresh OE components) on that 'soon to be' 12 year old car.


The plastics deteriorates and breaks down, it's what causes all the leaks and overheats or lack of heats.

The DCCV and Aux Coolant flow pump should be included in the refresh.

"overheat" site:http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/