Rice Presses U.N. to Confront Defiant Iran

cww102174

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Rice Presses U.N. to Confront Defiant Iran


WASHINGTON - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, coordinating with European allies, called on the United Nations Thursday to confront Iran's "defiance" and demand that Tehran halt its nuclear program. Rice, at a news conference, declined to say whether the United States has the necessary votes at the U.N. Security Council to punish Iran � or would even try at this stage. But she said impatience with Iran was growing and that Tehran was out of step with advances in democracy in the region.
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/iran


Hey maybe you guys can help me out here. With the way this is going will this become "IRAQ" all over again. You know first talks, then meetings with the U.N. and if we don't like what the U.N. does, then we go in there too?:confused: If we do I certainly hope that more allies will join in. I mean do we have the man power. So many people want to see our troops out of Iraq, but I am sure they don't want to see them moved to Iran. How do you guys feel? What do you think will happen?
 
Just hope

Let's just hope that after I raq, they know that we are serious. But then again, the radical that now leads thier country is not known for his diplomacy. He is the one who has called for the total annihilation of the Israelies, and stated that the holocaust did not happen. He is way out of touch with reality. Think maybe he had his turban wrapped to tight as a child.
 
Big difference between Iraq and Iran. Iran HAS a nuclear program that it wears proudly on it's shoulder in plain view.
 
JohnnyBz00LS said:
Big difference between Iraq and Iran. Iran HAS a nuclear program that it wears proudly on it's shoulder in plain view.

How quickly Johnny forgets (or did you NEVER know?) history. Saddam was building nukes back in 1981 and Israel bombed it to he77. Oh, and let's not forget the most recent batch of nuclear material shipped out of Iraq a mere 2 years ago.

So, Johnny, are you saying that you would SUPPORT us going into Iran?
 
Ok so what do you guys think? Should we go in? If we do go in can we handle being in Iran and Iraq?? Not to mention still lookin for Bin Laden(however you spell is name:p). Hell do we have the money to spend. Don't get me wrong I think it is good for us to help be big brother over the world, but we have enough to try and fix here in our on backyard.
 
cww102174 said:
Ok so what do you guys think? Should we go in? If we do go in can we handle being in Iran and Iraq?? Not to mention still lookin for Bin Laden(however you spell is name:p). Hell do we have the money to spend. Don't get me wrong I think it is good for us to help be big brother over the world, but we have enough to try and fix here in our on backyard.


Osama Bin Laden has been 'marginalized', he's not all that important anymore. Go figure.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Osama Bin Laden has been 'marginalized', he's not all that important anymore. Go figure.

You keep misunderstanding what it means for bin Laden to have been "marginalized." You assume that Bush decided bin Laden wasn't important anymore. That's not what is meant at all. What is meant is that by dismantling his organization, closing down his channels of communication, disrupting his funding, and keeping him on the run, he has become marginalized by being reduced in his ability to function and in his effectiveness. It's a good thing to marginalize him.
 
RB3 said:
You keep misunderstanding what it means for bin Laden to have been "marginalized." You assume that Bush decided bin Laden wasn't important anymore. That's not what is meant at all. What is meant is that by dismantling his organization, closing down his channels of communication, disrupting his funding, and keeping him on the run, he has become marginalized by being reduced in his ability to function and in his effectiveness. It's a good thing to marginalize him.

Ok, putting it that way does make it better. But a good thing would to have him captured or killed. It would also be a good thing if Bush spoke out more on the efforts to capture him, he hasn't mentioned Osama since the war started or shortly after.
 
cww102174 said:
Ok so what do you guys think? Should we go in? If we do go in can we handle being in Iran and Iraq?? Not to mention still lookin for Bin Laden(however you spell is name:p). Hell do we have the money to spend. Don't get me wrong I think it is good for us to help be big brother over the world, but we have enough to try and fix here in our on backyard.

Ok, buddy, sorry for all the distraction attempts by Deville, I'll answer your question now.

We need to follow the process (JUST LIKE WE DID WITH IRAQ) of going through the UN Security council and getting resolutions. The Iranians will have the choice of either shutting down the research or ignoring the resolutions. At that point we may have to take direct action.

Keep in mind that no matter what the UN does, Israel is likely to bomb them in March. If the UN can't get something done by then, I suggest that we ask the Iraqis to supply logistical support for Israel for that operation. Strange bedfellows, eh? Probably not going to happen.

What we can do at that point is take out their installations with Tomahawks. We probably won't have to invade unless we can't stop them from producing nukes.
 
fossten said:
Ok, buddy, sorry for all the distraction attempts by Deville, I'll answer your question now..

Dude, he specifically asked about Osama.

fossten said:
We need to follow the process (JUST LIKE WE DID WITH IRAQ) of going through the UN Security council and getting resolutions. The Iranians will have the choice of either shutting down the research or ignoring the resolutions. At that point we may have to take direct action.

Keep in mind that no matter what the UN does, Israel is likely to bomb them in March. If the UN can't get something done by then, I suggest that we ask the Iraqis to supply logistical support for Israel for that operation. Strange bedfellows, eh? Probably not going to happen.

What we can do at that point is take out their installations with Tomahawks. We probably won't have to invade unless we can't stop them from producing nukes.

Since you know it all. Why didn't we just use the Tomahawk method first to take out Iraq's WMD installations then go in if it was ineffective? According to Bush & Co., Saddam was giving ample time to disarm and comply, he didn't so we invaded, don't you think if we don't use the same methods with Ahmadinejad we'll be seen as weak and welcome an attack?
 
95DevilleNS said:
Since you know it all. Why didn't we just use the Tomahawk method first to take out Iraq's WMD installations then go in if it was ineffective? According to Bush & Co., Saddam was giving ample time to disarm and comply, he didn't so we invaded, don't you think if we don't use the same methods with Ahmadinejad we'll be seen as weak and welcome an attack?

Dude, you really don't pay attention, do you?

I think I already explained this, but I'll do it in smaller steps for you.

Saddam's WMDs were told to be hidden/buried and were known to be moved around a lot. We're talking chem/biological here. You don't use the same level of installations to develop those types of weapons as you do with nukes. He ALREADY HAD those weapons and was refusing to destroy them. We know he didn't have nukes yet.

Iran has opened the UN seal on their nuke site and is busy enriching uranium and developing guidance systems. If, and I emphasize the word IF, we know where those sites are, then we can hit them with Tomahawks. If, and I again emphasize IF, we CAN'T stop them with that method then we'll have to go in.
 
fossten said:
Dude, you really don't pay attention, do you?

I think I already explained this, but I'll do it in smaller steps for you.

Saddam's WMDs were told to be hidden/buried and were known to be moved around a lot. We're talking chem/biological here. You don't use the same level of installations to develop those types of weapons as you do with nukes. He ALREADY HAD those weapons and was refusing to destroy them. We know he didn't have nukes yet.

Iran has opened the UN seal on their nuke site and is busy enriching uranium and developing guidance systems. If, and I emphasize the word IF, we know where those sites are, then we can hit them with Tomahawks. If, and I again emphasize IF, we CAN'T stop them with that method then we'll have to go in.

Oh ya! I remember what you said, they were moved to Syria.......:rolleyes:

The worlds top technology at our disposal and we can't find the WMD trucks/installations. Something wrong with that.
 
fossten said:
How quickly Johnny forgets (or did you NEVER know?) history. Saddam was building nukes back in 1981 and Israel bombed it to he77. Oh, and let's not forget the most recent batch of nuclear material shipped out of Iraq a mere 2 years ago.

So, Johnny, are you saying that you would SUPPORT us going into Iran?

C'mon man, stay w/ the program here. How quickly you've confused (like you almost always do) ancient history with present day realities. Even GWB admitted his mistake of believing all the "flawed intelligence" about Iraq's WMD programs. Are you now calling GWB a LIAR?? Make up your mind, quit flip-flopping.

WRT supporting taking Iran down a notch or two, given the fact that Iran proudly wears its nuclear programs and flaunts it, I might support doing something about Iran. Have they made any direct threats against the US? Have they ATTACKED the US? Have they INVADED any of our allies? Do they support Al Quida or OBL?
 
95DevilleNS said:
Oh ya! I remember what you said, they were moved to Syria.......:rolleyes:

The worlds top technology at our disposal and we can't find the WMD trucks/installations. Something wrong with that.

Don't forget that within months of that move to Syria, Syria brandished them in full public view and threatened to use them against Isreal. :rolleyes:

That would be like your neighbor killing his wife, then giving the knife he used to murder her to you to "hide". Then before you neighbor's trial even starts, you go walking down the street in front of the police station screaming like a lunatic brandishing that same murder weapon covered in her dried blood threatening passerbys. Yeah, that happens all the time. :rolleyes:
 
There really isn't a good answer as to what to do about Iran. Following is an edited version of Victor Davis Hanson's analysis; you can read the entire column here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200601130837.asp


The Multilateral Moment?
Our bad and worse choices about Iran.​



"Multilateralism good; preemption and unilateralism bad.”

For four years we have heard these Orwellian commandments as if they were inscribed above the door of Farmer Jones’s big barn. Now we will learn their real currency, since the Americans are doing everything imaginable — drawing in the Europeans, coaxing the Russians and Chinese to be helpful at the U.N., working with international monitoring agencies, restraining Israel, talking to the Arabs, keeping our jets in their hangars — to avoid precipitous steps against Iran.

Its theocracy poses a danger to civilization even greater than a nuclear North Korea for a variety of peculiar circumstances. Iran is free of a patron like China that might in theory exert moderate influence or even insist on occasional restraint. North Korea, for an increasingly wealthy and capitalist China, is as much a headache and an economic liability as a socialist comrade.

In contrast, Iran is a cash cow for Russia (and China) and apparently a source of opportunistic delight in its tweaking of the West. Iranian petro-wealth has probably already earned Tehran at least one, and probably two, favorable votes at the Security Council.

Of course, Tehran’s oil revenues allow it access to weapons markets, and overt blackmail, both of which are impossible for a starving North Korea. And Iran’s nuclear facilities are located at the heart of the world’s petroleum reserves, where even the semblance of instability can drive up global oil prices, costing the importing world billions in revenues.

No one is flocking to Communism, much less Pyongyang’s unrepentant, ossified Stalinist brand. Islamic radicalism, on the other hand, has declared war on Western society and tens of thousands of jihdadists, whether Shiia or Sunnis, count on Iran for money, sanctuary, and support. Al Qaeda members travel the country that is the spiritual godhead of Hezbollah, and a donor of arms and money to radical Palestinian terrorists.

North Korea can threaten Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and the western United States, and so poses a real danger. But the opportunities for havoc are even richer for a nuclear Iran. With nukes and an earned reputation for madness, it can dictate to the surrounding Arab world the proper policy of petroleum exportation; it can shakedown Europeans whose capitals are in easy missile range; it can take out Israel with a nuke or two; or it can bully the nascent democracies of the Middle East while targeting tens of thousands of US soldiers based from Afghanistan to the Persian Gulf.

And Iran can threaten to do all this under the aegis of a crazed Islamist regime more eager for the paradise of the next world than for the material present so dear to the affluent and decadent West. If Iran can play brinkmanship now on just the promise of nuclear weapons, imagine its roguery to come when it is replete with them.

When a supposedly unhinged Mr. Ahmadinejad threatens the destruction of Israel and then summarily proceeds to violate international protocols aimed at monitoring Iran’s nuclear industry, we all take note. Any country that burns off some of its natural gas at the wellhead while claiming that it needs nuclear power for domestic energy is simply lying. Terrorism, vast petroleum reserves, nuclear weapons, and boasts of wiping neighboring nations off the map are a bad combination.

So we all agree on the extent of the crisis, but not on the solutions, which can be summarized by four general options.

First is the ostrich strategy — see and hear no evil, if extending occasional peace feelers out to more reasonable mullahs. Hope that “moderates” in the Iranian government exercise a restraining influence on Mr. Ahmadinejad. Sigh that nuclear Iran may well become like Pakistan — dangerous and unpredictable, but still perhaps “manageable.” Talk as if George Bush and the Iranians both need to take a time out.

I doubt that many serious planners any longer entertain this passive fantasy, especially after the latest rantings of Ahmadinejad.

Alternatively, we could step up further global condemnation. The West could press the U.N. more aggressively — repeatedly calling for more resolutions, and, ultimately, for sanctions, boycotts, and embargos, energizes our allies to cut all ties to Iran, and provides far more money to dissident groups inside Iran to rid the country of the Khomeinists. Ensuring that democracy works in Iraq would be subversive to the mullahs across the border. Some sort of peaceful regime change is the solution preferred by most — and, of course, can be pursued in a manner contemporaneous with, not exclusionary to, other strategies.

It is a long-term therapy and therefore suffers the obvious defect that Iran might become nuclear in the meantime. Then the regime’s resulting braggadocio might well deflate the dissident opposition, as the mullahs boast that they alone have restored Iranian national prestige with an Achaemenid bomb.

A third, and often unmentionable, course is to allow the most likely intended target of nuclear Iran, Israel, to take matters into its own hands. We know this scenario from the 1981 destruction of Saddam’s French-built Osirak nuclear reactor: the world immediately deplores such “unilateral” and “preemptory” recklessness, and then sighs relief that Israel, not it, put the bell on the fanged cat.

But 2006 is not 1981. We are in a war with Islamic radicalism, at the moment largely near the Iranian border in Iraq and Afghanistan. The resulting furor over a “Zionist” strike on Shia Iran might galvanize Iraqi Shiites to break with us, rather than bring them relief that the Jewish state had eliminated a nearby nuclear threat and had humiliated an age-old rival nation and bitter former enemy. Thousands of Americans are in range of Iranian artillery and short-term missile salvoes, and, in theory, we could face in Iraq a conventional enemy at the front and a fifth column at the rear.

And Iran poses far greater risks than in the past for Israeli pilots flying in over the heart of the Muslim world, with 200-300 possible nuclear sites that are burrowed into mountains, bunkers and suburbs. Such a mission would require greater flight distances, messy refueling, careful intelligence, and the need to put Israeli forces on alert for an Iranian counterstrike or a terrorist move from Lebanon. Former Israeli friends like Turkey are now not so cordial, and the violation of Islamic airspace might in the short-term draw an ugly response, despite the eventual relief in Arab capitals at the elimination of the Iranian nuclear arsenal.

If the Israeli raids did not take out the entire structure, or if there were already plutonium present in undisclosed bunkers, then the Iranians might shift from their sickening rhetoric and provide terrorists in Syria and Lebanon with dirty bombs or nuclear devices to “avenge” the attack as part of a “defensive” war of “striking back” at “Israeli aggression”. Europeans might even shrug at any such hit, concluding that Israel had it coming by attacking first.

The fourth scenario is as increasingly dreaded as it is apparently inevitable — a U.S. air strike. Most hope that it can be delayed, since its one virtue — the elimination of the Iranian nuclear threat — must ipso facto outweigh the multifaceted disadvantages.

The Shiite allies in Iraq might go ballistic and start up a second front as in 2004. Muslim countries, the primary beneficiaries of a disarmed Iran, would still protest loudly that some of their territories, if only for purposes of intelligence and post-operative surveillance, were used in the strike. After Iraq, a hit on Iran would confirm to the Middle East Street a disturbing picture of American preemptory wars against Islamic nations.

Experts warn that we are not talking about a Clintonian one-day cruise-missile hit, or even something akin to General Zinni’s 1998 extended Operation Desert Fox campaign. Rather, the challenges call for something far more sustained and comprehensive — perhaps a week or two of bombing at every imaginable facility, many of them hidden in suburbs or populated areas. Commando raids might need to augment air sorties, especially for mountain redoubts deep in solid rock.

The political heat would mount hourly, as Russia, China, and Europe all would express shock and condemnation, and whine that their careful diplomatic dialogue had once again been ruined by the American outlaws. Soon the focus of the U.N. would not be on Iranian nuclear proliferation, or the role of Europe, Pakistan, China, and Russia in lending nuclear expertise to the theocracy, but instead on the mad bomber-cowboy George Bush. We remember that in 1981 the world did not blame the reckless and greedy French for their construction of a nuclear reactor for Saddam Hussein, but the sober Israelis for taking it out.

Politically, the administration would have to vie with CNN’s daily live feeds of collateral damage that might entail killed Iranian girls and boys, maimed innocents, and street-side reporters who thrust microphones into stretchers of civilian dead. The Europeans’ and American Left’s slurs of empire and hegemony would only grow.

We remember the “quagmire” hysteria that followed week three in Afghanistan, and the sandstorm “pause” that prompted cries that we had lost Iraq. All that would be child’s play compared to an Iranian war, as retired generals and investigative reporters haggled every night on cable news over how many reactor sites were still left to go. So take for granted that we would be saturated by day four of the bombing with al Jazeera’s harangues, perhaps a downed and blindfolded pilot or two paraded on television, some gruesome footage of arms and legs in Tehran’s streets, and the usual Nancy Pelosi and Barbara Boxer outtakes.

So where do these bad and worse choices leave us? Right where we are now — holding and circling while waiting for a break in the clouds.

Still, there are two parameters we should accept — namely, that Iran should not be allowed to arm its existing missiles with nukes and that Israel should not have to do the dirty work of taking out Iran’s nuclear infrastructure.

The Europeans and the Americans right now must accelerate their efforts and bring the crisis to a climax at the Security Council to force China and Russia publicly to take sides. India, Pakistan, and the Arab League should all be brought in and briefed on the dilemma, and asked to go on record supporting U.N. action.

The public relations war is critical. Zen-like, the United States must assure the Europeans, Russians, and Arabs that the credit for a peaceful solution would be theirs. The lunacy of the Iranian president should provide the narrative of events, and thus be quoted hourly — as we remain largely silent.

Economically, we should factor in the real possibility that Iranian oil might be off the global market, and prepare — we have been here before with the Iranian embargo of 1979 — for colossal gasoline price hikes.

The Democratic leadership should step up to the plate and, in Truman-esque fashion, forge a bipartisan front to confront Iran and make the most of their multilateral moment. If the Democrats feel they have lost the public’s confidence in their stewardship of national security, then the threat of Iran offers a Hillary Clinton, Howard Dean, or John Kerry an opportunity to get out front now and pledge support for a united effort — attacking Bush from the right about too tepid a stance rather from the predictable left that we are “hegemonic” and “imperialistic” every time we use force abroad.

Finally, the public must be warned that dealing with a nuclear Iran is not a matter of a good versus a bad choice, but between a very bad one now and something far, far worse to come.

Victor Davis Hanson is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution.
 
JohnnyBz00LS said:
Have they made any direct threats against the US? Have they ATTACKED the US? Have they INVADED any of our allies? Do they support Al Quida or OBL?

1 and 2. They've threatened our allies, bombed our embassy, and taken our private citizens hostage.

3. See 1 and 2.
4. Yes.

Now I have a question for you.

If it is presented clearly that it will be imminent that Iran will possess nuclear weapons, are you in favor of them possessing them or do you believe they are a dangerous nation?
 
RB3 said:
There really isn't a good answer as to what to do about Iran. Following is an edited version of Victor Davis Hanson's analysis; you can read the entire column here:[/I]


Well written article, thanks.
 
fossten said:
If it is presented clearly that it will be imminent that Iran will possess nuclear weapons, are you in favor of them possessing them or do you believe they are a dangerous nation?


It's an interesting question, and one that I have thought long and hard about. The main problem is the "presented clearly", and if we compare to Iraq, that wasn't done. I'm skeptical if the info could be presented un-biased. Afterall, Isarael hates Iran with all of it's heart, and the US is Israel ally. I also feel that developed nations shouldn't be the only ones to reap the benefit of nuclear power. We in North America are fortunate to have massive coal stores, hydroelectric power, and nuclear of course. Many, many countries don't have the resources to create massive power for their citizens, and somewhat begin to be a "modern", civilized nation.

On the other hand, the stuff that comes out of Khatami's mouth IS crazy, and I can definitely see why Israel is very concerned. But an attack by the US (or Israel) might be a tad bit touchy. It certainly would cause more bad blood among Arabs, and this will solidify Al-Queda beliefs that Bin Laden is a Messiah (he said the US would continue to attack oil-rich Muslim countries un-able to defend themselves). If you believe that Syria also has the goods, then when the US attacks Iran, who's to say Syria doesn't attack Israel in retaliation? The Arabs countries are funny. While they seemingly have very delicate relationships among each other, they will use the slightest provocation to "unite" for a cause. And certainly if Israel attacks Iran, this will certainly be the case. It's less likely to happen if the US does it. But like I said, that creates its own set of problems.

The UN is another situation entirely. The US, more or less depending on your slant, ignored the UN before going to Iraq. Also bear in mind that China has trade agreements for energy from Iran (mainly natural gas at this point, but some oil too). DOn't look any further into this though. China just wants to preserve and be certain they are going to keep getting their energy. It's alot like the US-Saudi relationship..nearly identical. The US (or China) has trade agreements with a country that has been a breeding ground for terrorism and human rights violation. Both countries overlook that because they want their energy stores. So China will be somewhat miffed, but not because they are a huge ally. Merely a trading partner. And what happens if the US ignores the UN again? It's really a difficult situation all around.

Does Iran deserve to have nuclear power? Most definitely. Can they be trusted to ONLY use it for power generation? I'm not so sure about that one....

Could a solution be to have the nuclear reactor run by a third party, perhaps a neutral country? Have Iran build it and someone else run it almost like a utility company? And what type of reactor is it? We know that N. Korea uses reactors cloned from 1950's style reactors. While built new, they are old and not terribly efficient, but a reactor just the same. How modern is Irans operation?

But I think GW has already decided the fate of this. In the 1st week of January, he had every living former Secretary of State and Defense Secretary visit him for a "meeting on Iraq". I'm suprised no one hear posted about this. Included in the visit were: James A. Baker, Madeleine Albright, Alexander Haig Jr., Colin Powell, Lawrence Eagleburger, George Schultz, Harold Brown, Robert McNamara, William Cohen, William Perry, Frank Carlucci, James Schlesinger, Melvin Laird, Condoleezza Rice, and Donald Rumsfeld. What a collection of people in one place at the same time!! I'm not buying they were talking the Iraq angle for a second, since he didn't meet these people BEFORE the Iraq war. No, I think he wanted their opinions on Iran, since the stakes are much, much higher and the US (and possibly the world) has much more to lose this time around.
 
You make several statements which are debatable at best. Israel HATES Iran with all its heart? So Israel is the bad guy here? We're talking about a nation that's only about 60 years old and has had to scratch and claw for a small piece of land ON WHICH TO LIVE. The've been attacked by their neighbors since the 60's.

Your pity for the 'undeveloped' nations makes my heart bleed. Your criteria for a nation to deserve 'massive' amounts of energy is - what? That they want it? Did you ever stop to think that a nation that is malevolent in the extreme shouldn't be allowed to be a world player? I bet you're in favor of allowing Cuba to have nukes too.

I agree with you that it's touchy in the Middle East. But what other choice would we have? We CANNOT ALLOW countries like Iran to threaten us or our allies with nuclear weapons. That's why we will go to the UN and get their sanction. Your revision of history won't fly here. We went through a lengthy process with the UN regarding Iraq, and didn't ignore the UN. We ignored Germany, France, and Russia, which countries have been proven now to be non-factors anyway, since they were TAKING BRIBES FROM SADDAM HUSSEIN.

Your 'third party' scenario is so unworkable it's nearly absurd. That's akin to having inspectors in Iraq, which we all know only worked as long as Saddam decided NOT to kick them out. How would you make sure Iran didn't just TAKE OVER the nuclear facility as soon as they felt like it? Put a small army around the installation, with radar and tanks? Haha don't make me laugh. These people are zealots. They DON'T compromise, and the only reason they 'negotiate' is to buy themselves more time to complete their research. They CAN'T be trusted, not only to have nuclear power, but also to tell the truth or keep treaties. They DON'T deserve nuclear power, because they don't show restraint when it comes to their neighbor nations. You completely ignored in your post the statement by Iran's leader that Israel should be wiped off the map. We are talking about a country that harbors terrorists, that allows Hezbollah to have an office in the downtown capital, that threatens the US and Israel, and that is a malevolent society in general. You even admit that Saudi Arabia is a malevolent society. You err when you equivocate Iran's evil nature and intentions. Do you NOT believe that ANY country could be evil and a threat? Are you a believer that we should all just get along and not bother our enemies, and when they see that we mean them no harm, they will leave us alone? Ridiculous. You act like we should be afraid to enforce our will in the Middle East because we don't want to piss off Al Qaeda. Haha I have to laugh again. Newsflash for you, since your memory is obviously faulty: on 9/11 THEY ATTACKED US FIRST. What possible action do you really think could make them more hostile to us? Defending ourselves? That's exactly what I would expect a liberal to say.
 
I don't know you at all so I'm not sure about your character but it seems you REALLY look too far into any post anyone says. Of course some of the things I've said are unworkeable....Clearly Iran (or N Korea) would never let anyone into their country to run a nuclear facility. I'm just tossing out ideas for a situtation that people will roundly criticize no matter which way GWB handles it. Did I forget about what the Iranian leader says? No..if you read my post I said the stuff that comes out of his mouth is crazy. I think if you follow these types of situation, I shouldn't have to re-iterate what Khatami says to prove my point. He says outlandish stuff. Perhaps he and Jong went to the same finishing school? And yes, any nation that wants nuclear power should be allowed to have it. BUT (just like I said in my post..you must have missed it..again) can they be trusted to use it just for power generation? In Irans case (as I said in my post) I'm not so sure of that. You have a wonderful way of twisting posts around, especially when my point of view is almost the same as yours. Israel DOES hate Iran. That's what my post said. In no way did I "blame" Israel. It's a fact. Because of the relationship between Iran-Israel, it puts the US in a delicate situation. You don't agree? I'm sure the US really doesn't WANT to go to Iran, since they are engaged in a couple of conflicts already. But they WILL go to Iran to defend Israel. I even said if the US attacks Iran the fallout would be somewhat better for Israel than if Israel did it themselves. I think we are in agreement on the topic here, you just look for ways to twist it around and argue. Sounds like a difficul way to build consensus, but I guess if that's your way then so be it. Maybe point form would be less confusing for you? Let me try again.

1) Iran wants nuclear power to generate electricity to further develop their country.
2) It's not likely they can be trusted to ONLY use it for energy because Khatami comes off as crazy.
3) Because of this, it puts the US in a delicate situation. DO they attack Iran and risk further turmoil in the mideast? Or do they NOT attack Iran and risk further turmoil in the mideast.
4) Israel may attack 1st. This may cause greater turmoil than if the US attacked 1st.
5) Any attack may unite Arab resolve (including terrorist groups) in the mideast against Israel and the US. As it is right now, Arabs countries (and terrorist groups) are only loosely aligned as a whole.
6) The US is behind the 8-ball, and GWB will be criticized regardless of his decision.

Does that make more sense to you? Those are all FACTS. Perhaps that is easier for you to understand. Oh..and I certainly didn't forget 9/11. 15 of the 19 hijackers where from a US ally country, Saudi Arabia. Not Iraq. Or Iran. Or Syria. Nope..a US ally. And that's a FACT too.

Oh..and not sure why I get painted as a liberal when my beliefs are more or less the same as yours on this topic. Heck, I'm not even American. (I voted Conservative in my country last time, and will again on Jan 23rd) Perhaps this is why I'm able to see both sides more clearly, since I don't have any affiliation to either party, much less the country. At any rate, thanks for replying to my post.
 
Since your reply is directed more to Fossten, I'll let him field the bulk of it, but you've made a couple of statements I'd like to specifically address.

RRocket said:
1) Iran wants nuclear power to generate electricity to further develop their country.

That statement simply isn't true. I don't know that I can state it more clearly than Victor Davis Hanson did in the above posted article, so I'll simply quote it again:"Any country that burns off some of its natural gas at the wellhead while claiming that it needs nuclear power for domestic energy is simply lying." Iran wants nuclear material for the purpose of weaponry. Period.

RRocket said:
6) The US is behind the 8-ball, and GWB will be criticized regardless of his decision.

I couldn't agree more. It is nice to hear someone outside the USA admit that GWB is criticized regardless.

RRocket said:
15 of the 19 hijackers where from a US ally country, Saudi Arabia. Not Iraq. Or Iran. Or Syria. Nope..a US ally. And that's a FACT too..

It may be a fact, but it is an irrelevant one. Saudi Arabia isn't a state sponsor of terrorism. Those alleged Saudi citizens weren't acting at the behest of the Saudi government. In fact, the Saudis themselves have had terrorist attacks.

RRocket said:
Oh..and not sure why I get painted as a liberal when my beliefs are more or less the same as yours on this topic. Heck, I'm not even American. (I voted Conservative in my country last time, and will again on Jan 23rd) .

Sorry, on that basis I'd still paint you liberal. Obviously, you're Canadian. So are all my Aunts, Uncles, and cousins, and so were my parents. My Canadian relatives will also be voting Tory on the 23rd, but I still regard them as liberals. Your Conservative party is roughly the equivalent of our Democrats, your Liberal party is further to the left of that.

RRocket said:
Perhaps this is why I'm able to see both sides more clearly...

No, it's because you're Canadian that you believe you "see both sides more clearly." I've yet to meet a Canadian who didn't believe he was smarter than the Americans. And yes, I tell that to all my Canadian relatives too. ;)
 
RB3 said:
No, it's because you're Canadian that you believe you "see both sides more clearly." I've yet to meet a Canadian who didn't believe he was smarter than the Americans. And yes, I tell that to all my Canadian relatives too. ;)


Well our educational standards are superior to yours, as are our literacy rates, school enrollment and completion rates. So are you really suprised we're smarter?? :D

I wouldn't say that Bush is unjustly criticized for everything he does. He more than deserves his share. But in this case, being that it's so delicate, he's really screwed no matter which way he goes.

As far as the gas flaring, that's a bit misleading. My brother is a petroleum geologist. He states that EVERY large oil field flares off billions of cubic feet of gas since it's often not economical or feasible to recover. The US also flares of enough gas to warrant the closing of a nuclear plant. In addition, as I stated in another post, China has signed a 25 year deal with Iran for gas. Iran is saving its gas fields since it's more cost effective to export it. So they'll make more money exporting the gas rather than using it to power generators. This is a common practice, done in the US, Canada and other nations.
 
RRocket said:
Well our educational standards are superior to yours, as are our literacy rates, school enrollment and completion rates. So are you really suprised we're smarter?? :D

I don't equate indoctrination with education, but I also wouldn't defend public education in this country in its present state. Literacy rates, school enrollment and completion rates have cultural factors as well; if you compare apples to apples within populations in our two countries the levels are much closer.

Beyond that, I'll give you the answer I give my Canadian relatives. The United States is the leader of the free world, and leads the world in countless categories...productivity, technology, food production, and on and on. What has Canada done? Really...any great Canadian art, literature, culture, technology, any none US based industry? How many countries have you freed from tyranny? Why is it that anyone in your country that has any talent moves to the US to get ahead? Having traveled all over the world, it pains me to admit that my Canadians are among the most conceited people I've ever met, and I search in vain for what they base their imagined superiority on. So yes, I'm really quite surprised that you think you're smarter. :confused:

RRocket said:
I wouldn't say that Bush is unjustly criticized for everything he does. He more than deserves his share. But in this case, being that it's so delicate, he's really screwed no matter which way he goes..

Fine, I'll retract my compliment.

RRocket said:
As far as the gas flaring, that's a bit misleading. My brother is a petroleum geologist. He states that EVERY large oil field flares off billions of cubic feet of gas since it's often not economical or feasible to recover. The US also flares of enough gas to warrant the closing of a nuclear plant. In addition, as I stated in another post, China has signed a 25 year deal with Iran for gas. Iran is saving its gas fields since it's more cost effective to export it. So they'll make more money exporting the gas rather than using it to power generators. This is a common practice, done in the US, Canada and other nations.

So you are still trying to suggest that Iran, sitting on some of the worlds largest oil reserves, and run by a madman who wants to wipe neighboring countries off the face of the earth, just wants nuclear capability for peaceful purposes and not weaponry? And you think you're smarter than US? (pun intended) And by the way, this "common practice, done in the US, Canada, and other nations", doesn't extend to selling so much that we don't have any left for ourselves. It's your reply that's a "bit misleading."
 
No..I'm just saying "flaring" is a common practice, and that's alone is not good enough to prevent someone from having nuclear power. But as I've said, many many times (how do you guys miss it?) that Khatami says crazy stuff, and I don't think he can really be trusted to use nuclear power SOLELY for power generation. I've agreed with that statement several times already.

Oh..and I wasn't ungrateful for the compliment. I just call it as I see it. Sometimes he deserves the criticism, sometimes not....
 

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