The Feds are coming for our guns, folks...

fossten

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The Feds are preparing for the next Civil War.Monday, February 15, 1999

ARMED AND DANGEROUS
Fear and loathing in Kingsville, Texas
Local residents fuming over Army live-fire exercise

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: February 15, 1999
1:00 a.m. Eastern



By David M. Bresnahan



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© 1999 WorldNetDaily.com

A group of Kingsville, Texas, citizens now plan to pursue action against their city for permitting the Army to use live ammunition during an exercise in their town known as Operation Last Dance.

Angry citizens are expected to crowd the next city council and county commission meetings, both scheduled to be held Feb. 22. At least one citizen is looking into legal action.

Some residents said they were terrified when helicopters swooped into town from the Army Special Operations Command, Ft. Bragg, North Carolina, last Monday night. One helicopter hit a telephone pole, which started a fire and horrified residents who saw it happen.

At least eight helicopters are reported to have participated in an assault exercise using live ammunition and explosives very close to innocent bystanders who were not warned of the planned action.

Fire officials confirmed that they responded to the resulting fire, but had no warning that the exercise would take place. They were also summoned to put out a building fire caused by explosions set off during the exercise.

It has since been learned from military sources that the actual group involved in the exercise is known as the Night Stalkers, an elite group from the Delta Force. They are trained to conduct assassination missions, according to several retired military officers who had served in various special operations assignments.

The Army Special Operations Command at Ft. Bragg, North Carolina, has acknowledged that the event was the kick-off of a series of similar training operations going on in Kingsville, Corpus Christi and Fort Sam Houston, but would not confirm that the group was the Night Stalkers. Additional training events have been confirmed in the area.


Austin radio station talk show host Alex Jones went to Kingsville to investigate for WorldNetDaily. He arrived just in time to find work crews covering up the evidence of the extensive damage caused by the exercise.

A former police station and an old Exxon office building were nearly destroyed. Evidence of bullet holes in walls, explosions from grenades, and other explosive charges could be seen. Fire damage was also extensive in at least one of the buildings.

Lt. Judy Hayes, 3rd in command at Kingsville Police Department
"There was a joint training session between the United States Army and the Kingsville Police Department," Lt. Judy Hayes, third in command at the Kingsville police told Jones.

"The Army was doing some sort of extraction type thing. They used eight helicopters. Our training involved sealing off the area, as if we were involved in taking care of a hazardous materials type incident. We were rerouting traffic and making sure there was no civilian foot traffic in the area. So we got quite a bit of training in that area.

"The only participation on the part of the Kingsville Police Department was in a hazardous materials training session. We did not participate in any way with what the Army was doing," insisted Hayes.

Throughout the interview with Jones, two men in black SWAT team uniforms stood behind her. Jones believes it was an attempt to intimidate him.

The Kingsville Fire Department was not given notice of the exercise, and it was not invited to participate in the alleged hazardous materials training, even though it would be called in if there were a real even of that kind.

The fire department spokesman claimed officials were not aware of the event until they were called to respond to the telephone pole fire and the fire at the former police station.

An elderly lady who lives in an apartment across from where the exercise took place told Jones that she was frightened to death and crying. She was sitting on a bench in full view of the area where the helicopters first appeared and where all the shooting took place.

"I sit on the bench, and then I get scared because the noise. It was so terrible and too loud, you know. They were throwing some bombs. I think they were using some rifles too, and the other kind of rifles that go pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, you know," said the elderly woman, identified only as Gracie.

She described seeing many black helicopters with men in black coming out of them. She heard explosions and apparently machine gun fire. She said it lasted at least two hours.

"I was so scared I went back to my apartment, but I could still hear the noise," Gracie said. She said she was so scared that she cried and her heart hurt. She said no one warned her or came to tell her what was going on.

Business owners are also complaining. The police claim they warned businesses in the area of the exercise in advance. If they did, WorldNetDaily was unable to find any that would confirm that. The businesses in the area that were open at the time of the exercise had no idea what was going on.

A former police chief and former city council member have expressed dismay over the incident and are contemplating filing an official complaint.


Police Chief Philipe Garza was appointed to his position even though he did not have the required training. He is currently under investigation for police brutality and abuse.
Police Chief Philipe Garza has been the object of a number of investigations lately. Currently the U.S. Department of Justice has been asked to investigate accusations of police abuse. Several residents, who did not wish to be identified, claim that Garza is very abusive with citizens and rules by intimidation.

Garza claims there are very few complaints from residents of Kingsville. He says the only complaints are coming from people in other parts of the country.

The head of emergency management for Kingsville is the Federal Emergency Management Agency coordinator Tomas Sanchez. He is a highly decorated Navy veteran, wounded in Vietnam and retired after 30 years of service. He now continues to serve as the head of the military police unit of the Texas State Guard, which is under the National Guard.

Sanchez has had extensive experience and training in special operations, and he expressed deep concern to WorldNetDaily about events in Kingsville. He was asked what was the purpose of the exercise. He said the plan involved a scenario that required military action because local police could not deal with civilians effectively.

"Martial law has been declared through presidential powers and war powers act, and some citizens have refused to give up their weapons. They have taken over two of the buildings in Kingsville. The police cannot handle it. So you call these guys in. They show up and they zap everybody, take all the weapons, and let the local P.D. clean it up," described Sanchez of the scenario the Night Stalkers were likely given.

Sanchez says the military exercise in his town was illegal under the Posse Comitatus Act, but he says that Presidential Decision Directive 25 has given an exception to Special Operations. He believes the men involved have total immunity from any legal action against them. Although PDD 25 is top secret, Sanchez has seen it because of his position with FEMA, and he has a security clearance. He would not provide a copy to WorldNetDaily.

"Some folks are talking about seeking some legal counsel. Some are asking for the crisis incident stress management counseling. They would like to see some of that," said Sanchez.


Shell casing used by Night Stalkers to blast their way through doors.
"When the helos are right above the rooftop, and the windows are vibrating, and people are ducking under the bed, and so on and so forth, they need that," he explained.

Sanchez was able to locate some of the helicopters and some of the soldiers used in Operation Last Dance. He decided to take a drive to the Corpus Christi Naval Air Station and the Corpus Christi Army Depot where all the helicopters are given maintenance.

"Parked between hanger 45 and 46 on the tarmac were four Blackhawk, no marking, helicopters. They've got it all blocked off with a chain link fence that says ID card required to gain access. No security guard. One can drive up close enough to look through the fence and see the Blackhawk helocopters. Only four of them were parked there," said Sanchez of his findings.

He said the men involved are most likely staying at the bachelor- enlisted quarters, which is a three-story barracks building. Some of the men have been observed eating in a fast food restaurant right near the bachelor-enlisted quarters.

"You can always tell these guys because even when they put on civilian clothes they still look like Army Rangers. White sidewalls we call it. Short crew cut," Sanchez explained.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David M. Bresnahan, a contributing editor for WorldNetDaily.com, is the author of "Cover Up: The Art and Science of Political Deception," and offers a monthly newsletter "Talk USA Investigative Reports." He may be reached through email and also maintains a website.
 
Alex Jones is a lunatic and a self-important, self-promoting fool. The mere mention of his name in a story makes me inclined to dismiss the entire thing.

He said the plan involved a scenario that required military action because local police could not deal with civilians effectively.
Sounds like Iraq. Or any other crap-hole country the Special Forces will probably be going to in the near future.


"Martial law has been declared through presidential powers and war powers act, and some citizens have refused to give up their weapons. They have taken over two of the buildings in Kingsville. The police cannot handle it. So you call these guys in. They show up and they zap everybody, take all the weapons, and let the local P.D. clean it up," described Sanchez of the scenario the Night Stalkers were likely given.
This is wild speculation on the part of Sanchez. He's taken the special forces need to quickly secure a town to it now being a broad government conspiracy to take everyone's fire arms. That's a hell of a big step.

Keeping in mind how few special forces and helicopters we have, relative to the size of the country, even if this were done in one city (or twelve), it wouldn't be successful in the other thousands of cities.

I'm a supporter of our second amendment rights, I recognize that there are groups out there that would like to deny us this constitutional right, but I don't think we should over react or buy into some fear mongering by jerk-offs like Alex Jones.
 
Calabrio said:
Alex Jones is a lunatic and a self-important, self-promoting fool. The mere mention of his name in a story makes me inclined to dismiss the entire thing.


Sounds like Iraq. Or any other crap-hole country the Special Forces will probably be going to in the near future.



This is wild speculation on the part of Sanchez. He's taken the special forces need to quickly secure a town to it now being a broad government conspiracy to take everyone's fire arms. That's a hell of a big step.

Keeping in mind how few special forces and helicopters we have, relative to the size of the country, even if this were done in one city (or twelve), it wouldn't be successful in the other thousands of cities.

I'm a supporter of our second amendment rights, I recognize that there are groups out there that would like to deny us this constitutional right, but I don't think we should over react or buy into some fear mongering by jerk-offs like Alex Jones.

You're forgetting that this has already happened. Remember Waco and Ruby Ridge?
 
I am not a fear monger..............

Calabrio said:
This is wild speculation on the part of Sanchez. He's taken the special forces need to quickly secure a town to it now being a broad government conspiracy to take everyone's fire arms. That's a hell of a big step.

Keeping in mind how few special forces and helicopters we have, relative to the size of the country, even if this were done in one city (or twelve), it wouldn't be successful in the other thousands of cities.

I'm a supporter of our second amendment rights, I recognize that there are groups out there that would like to deny us this constitutional right, but I don't think we should over react or buy into some fear mongering by jerk-offs like Alex Jones.

But do you remember incidents like Ruby Ridge, and Waco. I know that these were small operations, but could it possibly be practice for the future?

Could the Patriot Act be a precursor to total disarmament? I certainly hope not. But when you see things like bills trying to be passed that try to force gun manufacturers to add a chip to all firearms that will allow them to be disabled by law enforcement, it does make you wonder what is next. I too am a firm believer in the second amendment, and I practice it by buying and owning legally purchased firearms. They are my first and last line of defense against a corrupt government. I would not have been a victim like a lot of the people in some of the recent natural disasters. I do not hoard cash or food. But I do have a currency that will enable the survival of myself and my family. Guns and ammunition for same. I am not a survivalist, nor a dooms dayer, nor a lunatic. I am a realist. I hope that I do not live to see the day where our government takes away our right to keep and bear arms. But I am prepared. And my 6 year old son is educated in the safe and accurate use of my firearms. Just remember that freedom is not free. You have to be prepared to fight and pay the ultimate price for it.
 
fossten said:
You're forgetting that this has already happened. Remember Waco and Ruby Ridge?

No, I haven't forgotten them, but to say that they were simply examples of the government simply attempting to squash the 2nd amendment rights of the good citizens individual would be unreasonable.

I don't think there's any need to rehash the history of those two events, but in the case of Waco, we were dealing with a cult with significant weapon caches, engaged in child rape.

Ruby Ridge was a fiasco, but not about violating constitutional gun rights. If memory serves, the ATF was trying to pressure Weaver, a doomsday survivalist with Green Beret training, into turning informant on the local Aryan nation. Weaver refused and informed the Aryans of the gov't investigation. They then prosecuted him for selling illegally sawed off shotguns to an undercover agent.

So, these are often sighted, but I don't think it's appropriate. I think they might be motivated and intensified by a fear of guns, but I don't think that they were the result of a black helicopter plan to deny the 2nd amendment. Because, as you well know, neither of these operations were performed by the special forces, or with anything resembling precision, or a well formulated plan.
 
Agreed...........

Calabrio said:
No, I haven't forgotten them, but to say that they were simply examples of the government simply attempting to squash the 2nd amendment rights of the good citizens individual would be unreasonable.

I don't think there's any need to rehash the history of those two events, but in the case of Waco, we were dealing with a cult with significant weapon caches, engaged in child rape.

Ruby Ridge was a fiasco, but not about violating constitutional gun rights. If memory serves, the ATF was trying to pressure Weaver, a doomsday survivalist with Green Beret training, into turning informant on the local Aryan nation. Weaver refused and informed the Aryans of the gov't investigation. They then prosecuted him for selling illegally sawed off shotguns to an undercover agent.

So, these are often sighted, but I don't think it's appropriate. I think they might be motivated and intensified by a fear of guns, but I don't think that they were the result of a black helicopter plan to deny the 2nd amendment. Because, as you well know, neither of these operations were performed by the special forces, or with anything resembling precision, or a well formulated plan.

While they may not be the best examples, they came to mind quickly. There were lies and falsities on both sides in both of these cases. And there were alternatives in both of these cases. I was in Waco shortly after the siege. And many people in Waco were outraged that the feds did not pick Koresh up in town the previous week when they had the opportunity. The killing of Koresh does not make me mad. The killing of innocent children does. And in the Ruby Ridge incident, there was never any solid proof that Weaver ever did what the government accused him of.

But your point is taken and accepted.
 
bufordtpisser said:
While they may not be the best examples, they came to mind quickly. There were lies and falsities on both sides in both of these cases. And there were alternatives in both of these cases. I was in Waco shortly after the siege. And many people in Waco were outraged that the feds did not pick Koresh up in town the previous week when they had the opportunity. The killing of Koresh does not make me mad. The killing of innocent children does. And in the Ruby Ridge incident, there was never any solid proof that Weaver ever did what the government accused him of.

But your point is taken and accepted.

I think we'd all be in agreement saying that both of these examples were best described as demonstrates of the ineptitude mismanagement by the Clinton administration and justice department headed by Janet Reno.

(as for the proof against Weaver, I don't think there was any denying that Weaver sold sawed off shotguns to the ATF agent (acting as an Aryan Nation member), Weaver just denied that they were a fraction of an inch shorter than the legal thresh hold.)
 
You are right..........

Calabrio said:
I think we'd all be in agreement saying that both of these examples were best described as demonstrates of the ineptitude mismanagement by the Clinton administration and justice department headed by Janet Reno.

(as for the proof against Weaver, I don't think there was any denying that Weaver sold sawed off shotguns to the ATF agent (acting as an Aryan Nation member), Weaver just denied that they were a fraction of an inch shorter than the legal thresh hold.)

Do you know the difference between an 18" sawed off shotgun and a 17 7/8" sawed off shotgun???

Five years in a federal prison.
 
Well, if a story as far-fetched as this turns some of you around to the possibility that the policies the Bush administration has put into place could potentially be abused by a future administration, then I'm happy. The tired old argument of "if you have nothing to hide..." becomes null and void when you're on the wrong side of the political agenda. Sections of the Patriot Act, NSA wiretapping and data-mining of internet traffic, and who knows what else, can be used for and by good or evil.
 
Monday, February 15, 1999
..........................................................................................

Am I missing something here? Please elucidate!

The KKKlintons were certainly screwed up back them with Janet Reno at the helm so I would suggest they needed all the training they could get.
 
Calabrio said:
I think we'd all be in agreement saying that both of these examples were best described as demonstrates of the ineptitude mismanagement by the Clinton administration and justice department headed by Janet Reno.

(as for the proof against Weaver, I don't think there was any denying that Weaver sold sawed off shotguns to the ATF agent (acting as an Aryan Nation member), Weaver just denied that they were a fraction of an inch shorter than the legal thresh hold.)

Incorrect. You will recall that Weaver was acquitted after trial, and that he received a $3 Million settlement from the government, while if he had gone forward with his lawsuit, he could have obtained $200 million. Furthermore, he maintained and was able to hold up in his defense in court that when he sold the shotgun it was of the proper length. So the penalty for this technicality designed originally to restrict gun ownership in 1934, in Weaver's case, was the death of his wife.

These ATF agents didn't have to pay one dime of tax for their automatic weapons, nor did they have to apply for any licenses to purchase them.

As far as Waco goes, the child rape accusations were rumor generated by the ATF in order to distract public perception from their blundered invasion of his compound where innocents were killed and the agents all shot each other in their panic. This invasion, which cost more than the entire invasion of Haiti, all happened over a $200 tax that wasn't paid for a rifle. Go back and research it and see if you can find any real evidence that there was child rape involved.
 
TommyB said:
Well, if a story as far-fetched as this turns some of you around to the possibility that the policies the Bush administration has put into place could potentially be abused by a future administration, then I'm happy. The tired old argument of "if you have nothing to hide..." becomes null and void when you're on the wrong side of the political agenda. Sections of the Patriot Act, NSA wiretapping and data-mining of internet traffic, and who knows what else, can be used for and by good or evil.

This story is not far-fetched, Kool-Aid drinker. And these policies have been around long before Bush, Clinton, even before FDR. Go read up on it before you go off half-cocked.
 
Calabrio,

This is happening all across the country. It's happened recently, in New Orleans.

Read this:

Judge Issues Restraining Order Against New Orleans Gun Seizures
By Melanie Hunter
CNSNews.com Senior Editor
September 23, 2005

(CNSNews.com) - A federal judge Friday issued a temporary restraining order on behalf of two Second Amendment rights groups ending the seizure of firearms from citizens in and around New Orleans.

U.S. District Judge Jay Zaney issued the restraining order against those named in a lawsuit brought by the Second Amendment Foundation and the National Rifle Association, which include New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin and Police Chief Edwin Compass III.

"This is a great victory, not just for the NRA and SAF, but primarily for law-abiding gun owners everywhere," said SAF founder Alan M. Gottlieb. "We are proud to have joined forces with the NRA to put an end to what has amounted to a warrantless gun grab by authorities in New Orleans and surrounding jurisdictions."

Gottlieb said not only did residents of New Orleans lose "virtually everything" in Hurricane Katrina, they were also essentially "stripped" of their right to self-defense.

"SAF and NRA had no alternative but to take action," said Gottlieb. Otherwise, the gun seizures "would have set a dangerous precedent that would have encouraged authorities in other jurisdictions to believe they also could suspend the civil rights of citizens in the event of some other emergency."

Gottlieb challenged New Orleans authorities to explain how they will promptly "return all of those firearms to their rightful owners." He said the ruling "affirms is that even in the face of great natural disasters, governments cannot arbitrarily deprive citizens of their rights."
 
MonsterMark said:
Monday, February 15, 1999
..........................................................................................

Am I missing something here? Please elucidate!

The KKKlintons were certainly screwed up back them with Janet Reno at the helm so I would suggest they needed all the training they could get.


/blush

I hate it when you gloss over something as important as the YEAR and the ADMINISTRATION. You see Feb 15, and you assume it's topical.

But, I would like to repeat, Alex Jones is an asshat.
 
fossten said:
This is happening all across the country. It's happened recently, in New Orleans.

I remember when they did that in New Orleans, and on a city by city basis, these things are possible. Especially in a city run by Democrats, in a district, controlled by Democrats, in a State legislated by Democrats. You're absolutely right in saying that we should be on guard to prevent any encroachment on our basic constitutional rights.

The fact that the story was eight years old sort of makes the point for me, but there's no national effort underway to steal our guns. It's just not politically or physically possible.

And Alex Jones is an asshat.
 
Ofcourse there is a national effort underway to "steal" our guns. It's just being done slowly and methodically. If there was a new law that said "Civilian residents of America are no longer allowed to own firearms" that came out tomorrow, we'd practically have us a Civil War on our hands. No, the anti-gunners aren't THAT dumb.

They start at the extremes. The 50BMG and the .22lr . Then, they will work inwards.

Look at the independent Communist Republik of Kalifornia. They've banned 50BMG rifles. Their strongest arguments? "Well, someone can use one of these to shoot down an airplane from the ground". "Well, someone could use this gun in a robbery". Are you people suffering flashbacks from your drug indulging days of the 60's? It's not a god damned misile. It's a rifle!

"Yeah, the bullet may not get to 30K feet, but what if someone shoots the plane as it's on landing approach, or taking off? Huh? What do you have to say to that, Mr. Pro gun?" I can accomplish the same thing with various other calibers, all smaller than a 50BMG. You don't need a 50BMG to take out a 747.

Let's take an example. The handgun (and more appropriately the caliber) I use overseas. It's an FN 5.7x28mm platform. I use it in my Five.seveN sidearm, and my P90 PDW. Several years ago, the antigunners made a big ruckus about this round. "OMG! This is a cop killer! blah Blah Blah!" What they conveniently forgot to mention is that the round came in several flavors: The SS1190 round, which IS armor piercing, and was restricted to LE and military sales. aka. Civilians couldn't obtain that flavor of the round. Then there was the SS192 round, which was NOT armor piercing - yes, I know about the test where they shot a bullet proof vest and it went through. What they failed to mention was the vest was an old battered Level IIA vest. A long cry from the Level IIIA that most departments issue nowadays-. The antigunners made such a big stink about it, ad about the handgun, that FN said "fine. We won't sell the SS192 anymore". Mind you, the ATF had tested this round, and classified it as a personal defense round. FN isn't stupid though. They found a way to re-sell the SS192 round packaged a little differently. So it's all good for civilians. What the antigunners failed to also mention is that a simple .22LR round will just as easily go through not only a level II vest, but it will punch right through a level IIIA vest. I call that picking and choosing.

Make no mistake about it, the democrats do want to take our guns away. After all, that's better for us all, no? :rolleyes:

I've got an MP3 of a gun rant that I play to anti-gunners when I meet them in real life. It shuts 99% of them up real quick.

I don't dislike Democrats or Republicans. I just dislike some of their parties' ideas.
 
Frogman said:
Ofcourse there is a national effort underway to "steal" our guns. It's just being done slowly and methodically. If there was a new law that said "Civilian residents of America are no longer allowed to own firearms" that came out tomorrow, we'd practically have us a Civil War on our hands. No, the anti-gunners aren't THAT dumb.

They start at the extremes. The 50BMG and the .22lr . Then, they will work inwards.

Look at the independent Communist Republik of Kalifornia. They've banned 50BMG rifles. Their strongest arguments? "Well, someone can use one of these to shoot down an airplane from the ground". "Well, someone could use this gun in a robbery". Are you people suffering flashbacks from your drug indulging days of the 60's? It's not a god damned misile. It's a rifle!

"Yeah, the bullet may not get to 30K feet, but what if someone shoots the plane as it's on landing approach, or taking off? Huh? What do you have to say to that, Mr. Pro gun?" I can accomplish the same thing with various other calibers, all smaller than a 50BMG. You don't need a 50BMG to take out a 747.

Let's take an example. The handgun (and more appropriately the caliber) I use overseas. It's an FN 5.7x28mm platform. I use it in my Five.seveN sidearm, and my P90 PDW. Several years ago, the antigunners made a big ruckus about this round. "OMG! This is a cop killer! blah Blah Blah!" What they conveniently forgot to mention is that the round came in several flavors: The SS1190 round, which IS armor piercing, and was restricted to LE and military sales. aka. Civilians couldn't obtain that flavor of the round. Then there was the SS192 round, which was NOT armor piercing - yes, I know about the test where they shot a bullet proof vest and it went through. What they failed to mention was the vest was an old battered Level IIA vest. A long cry from the Level IIIA that most departments issue nowadays-. The antigunners made such a big stink about it, ad about the handgun, that FN said "fine. We won't sell the SS192 anymore". Mind you, the ATF had tested this round, and classified it as a personal defense round. FN isn't stupid though. They found a way to re-sell the SS192 round packaged a little differently. So it's all good for civilians. What the antigunners failed to also mention is that a simple .22LR round will just as easily go through not only a level II vest, but it will punch right through a level IIIA vest. I call that picking and choosing.

Make no mistake about it, the democrats do want to take our guns away. After all, that's better for us all, no? :rolleyes:

I've got an MP3 of a gun rant that I play to anti-gunners when I meet them in real life. It shuts 99% of them up real quick.

I don't dislike Democrats or Republicans. I just dislike some of their parties' ideas.

Excellent post, Frogman. You hit a chord with me, as I've been looking to pick up another good semiauto, and the Five-seveN was high on my list. But when I saw that they won't allow the tactical version to be sold to the public, it really pissed me off. I'm not kidding, I just had this same conversation with somebody THIS WEEK. But all is not lost, I'm going to get the Magnum Research SP-21 Barak instead.

One thing to add to your point about kevlar body armor is that 15mm of kevlar vest also will not stop...an ICEPICK.
 
The tactical version is legal for sale in the US. Only problem is, they are HARD to find. And I mean HARD. I have better luck picking up the hard to find, selectable semi/full auto version of the Five.seveN. The tactical version is more recommended as a secondary weapon. The IOM/USG versions are geared more towards primary weapon use. I highly recommend the USG if you plan on carrying concealed. The tactical has NO safety.

I haven't heard much about the SP21. I keep meaning to call MR and have them ship me one to try it out.
 
Bravo...............

Frogman said:
Ofcourse there is a national effort underway to "steal" our guns. It's just being done slowly and methodically. If there was a new law that said "Civilian residents of America are no longer allowed to own firearms" that came out tomorrow, we'd practically have us a Civil War on our hands. No, the anti-gunners aren't THAT dumb.

They start at the extremes. The 50BMG and the .22lr . Then, they will work inwards.

Look at the independent Communist Republik of Kalifornia. They've banned 50BMG rifles. Their strongest arguments? "Well, someone can use one of these to shoot down an airplane from the ground". "Well, someone could use this gun in a robbery". Are you people suffering flashbacks from your drug indulging days of the 60's? It's not a god damned misile. It's a rifle!

"Yeah, the bullet may not get to 30K feet, but what if someone shoots the plane as it's on landing approach, or taking off? Huh? What do you have to say to that, Mr. Pro gun?" I can accomplish the same thing with various other calibers, all smaller than a 50BMG. You don't need a 50BMG to take out a 747.

Let's take an example. The handgun (and more appropriately the caliber) I use overseas. It's an FN 5.7x28mm platform. I use it in my Five.seveN sidearm, and my P90 PDW. Several years ago, the antigunners made a big ruckus about this round. "OMG! This is a cop killer! blah Blah Blah!" What they conveniently forgot to mention is that the round came in several flavors: The SS1190 round, which IS armor piercing, and was restricted to LE and military sales. aka. Civilians couldn't obtain that flavor of the round. Then there was the SS192 round, which was NOT armor piercing - yes, I know about the test where they shot a bullet proof vest and it went through. What they failed to mention was the vest was an old battered Level IIA vest. A long cry from the Level IIIA that most departments issue nowadays-. The antigunners made such a big stink about it, ad about the handgun, that FN said "fine. We won't sell the SS192 anymore". Mind you, the ATF had tested this round, and classified it as a personal defense round. FN isn't stupid though. They found a way to re-sell the SS192 round packaged a little differently. So it's all good for civilians. What the antigunners failed to also mention is that a simple .22LR round will just as easily go through not only a level II vest, but it will punch right through a level IIIA vest. I call that picking and choosing.

Make no mistake about it, the democrats do want to take our guns away. After all, that's better for us all, no? :rolleyes:

I've got an MP3 of a gun rant that I play to anti-gunners when I meet them in real life. It shuts 99% of them up real quick.

I don't dislike Democrats or Republicans. I just dislike some of their parties' ideas.

I like this post a lot. I personally maintain a small arsenal for the purposes of self and family preservation. And if you wish to think of me as an off the wall lunatic, that is your prerogative. But if the $h!t ever does hit the fan, and you are in need of a slice of bread, or a bottle of water, and you have no means of getting it, give the buford a call. I am sure that we can work something out.
 
bufordtpisser said:
I like this post a lot. I personally maintain a small arsenal for the purposes of self and family preservation. And if you wish to think of me as an off the wall lunatic, that is your prerogative. But if the $h!t ever does hit the fan, and you are in need of a slice of bread, or a bottle of water, and you have no means of getting it, give the buford a call. I am sure that we can work something out.

Roger. :Beer

Guys, if you've never done so, read this book. It's already changed my life.
 
ok, this is purely hypothetical, but...

What if a "last dance" type situation were to go down near you what would you do?

would you crouch and cry like the old lady?
would you sit at your window with a rifle waiting for someone to come into your field of fire?
would you assume that the "sh!t did hit the fan" and begin moving through your town, looking for the cause of all the ruckus?
 
The Battle of Athens, Tennessee
As Recently As 1946, American Citizens Were
Forced To Take Up Arms As A Last Resort
Against Corrupt Government Officials.

Published in Guns & Ammo October 1995, pp. 50-51

On August 1-2, 1946, some Americans, brutalized by their county government, used armed force as a last resort to overturn it. These Americans wanted honest open elections. For years they had asked for state or federal election monitors to prevent vote fraud (forged ballots, secret ballot counts and intimidation by armed sheriff's deputies) by the local political boss. They got no help.

These Americans' absolute refusal to knuckle under had been hardened by service in World War II. Having fought to free other countries from murderous regimes, they rejected vicious abuse by their county government.

These Americans had a choice. Their state's Constitution -- Article 1, Section 26 -- recorded their right to keep and bear arms for the common defense. Few "gun control" laws had been enacted.

These Americans were residents of McMinn County, which is located between Chattanooga and Knoxville in Eastern Tennessee. The two main towns were Athens and Etowah. McMinn County residents had long been independent political thinkers. For a long time they also had: accepted bribe-taking by politicians and/or the sheriff to overlook illicit whiskey-making and gambling; financed the sheriff's department from fines-usually for speeding or public drunkenness which promoted false arrests; and put up with voting fraud by both Democrats and Republicans.

The wealthy Cantrell family, of Etowah, backed Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the 1932 election, hoping New Deal programs would revive the local economy and help Democrats to replace Republicans in the county government. So it proved.

Paul Cantrell was elected sheriff in the 1936,1938 and 1940 elections, but by slim margins. The sheriff was the key county official. Cantrell was elected to the state senate in 1942 and 1944; his chief deputy, Pat Mansfield, was elected sheriff. In 1946 Paul Cantrell again sought the sheriff's office.

At the end of 1945, some 3,000 battle-hardened veterans returned to McMinn County; the GIs held Cantrell politically responsible for Mansfield's doings. Early in 1946, some newly returned ex-GIs decided to challenge Cantrell politically by offering an all-ex-GI, non-partisan ticket. They promised a fraud-free election, stating in ads and speeches that there would be an honest ballot count and reform of county government.

At a rally, a GI speaker said, "The principles that we fought for in this past war do not exist in McMinn County. We fought for democracy because we believe in democracy but not the form we live under in this county" (Daily Post-Athenian, 17 June 1946, p.1 ). At the end of July 1946, 159 McMinn County GIs petitioned the FBI to send election monitors. There was no response. The Department of Justice had not responded to McMinn County residents' complaints of election fraud in 1940, 1942 and 1944.

FROM BALLOTS TO BULLETS

The primary election was held on August 1. To intimidate voters, Mansfield brought in some 200 armed "deputies." GI poll-watchers were beaten almost at once. At about 3 p.m., Tom Gillespie, an African- American voter was told by a sheriff's deputy that he could not vote. Despite being beaten, Gillespie persisted. The enraged deputy shot him. The gunshot drew a crowd. Rumors spread that Gillespie had been shot in the back; he later recovered (C. Stephen Byrum, The Battle of Athens, Paidia Productions, Chattanooga, TN, 1987; pp. 155-57).

Other deputies detained ex-GI poll-watchers in a polling place, as that made the ballot counting "Public" A crowd gathered. Sheriff Mansfield told his deputies to disperse the crowd. When the two ex-GIs smashed a big window and escaped, the crowd surged forward. The deputies, with guns drawn, formed a tight half-circle around the front of the polling place. One deputy, "his gun raised high...shouted: 'If you sons of bitches cross this street I'll kill you!'" (Byrum, p.165).

Mansfield took the ballot boxes to the jail for counting. The deputies seemed to fear immediate attack by the "people who had just liberated Europe and the South Pacific from two of the most powerful war machines in human history" (Byrum, pp. 168-69).

Short of firearms and ammunition, the GIs scoured the county to find them. By borrowing keys to the National Guard and State Guard armories, they got three M-1 rifles, five .45 semi-automatic pistols and 24 British Enfield rifles. The armories were nearly empty after the war's end. By 8 p.m. a group of GIs and "local boys" headed for the jail but left the back door unguarded to give the jail's defenders an easy way out.

Three GIs alerting passersby to danger were fired on from the jail. Two GIs were wounded. Other GIs returned fire.

Firing subsided after 30 minutes; ammunition ran low and night had fallen. Thick brick walls shielded those inside the jail. Absent radios, the GIs' rifle fire was uncoordinated. "From the hillside fire rose and fell in disorganized cascades. More than anything else, people were simply shooting at the jail" (Byrum, p.189).

Several who ventured into the street in front of the jail were wounded. One man inside the jail was badly hurt; he recovered. Most sheriff's deputies wanted to hunker down and await rescue. Governor McCord mobilized the State Guard, perhaps to scare the GIs into withdrawing. The State Guard never went to Athens. McCord may have feared that Guard units filled with ex-GIs might not fire on other ex-GIs.

At about 2 a.m. on August 2, the GIs forced the issue. Men from Meigs County threw dynamite sticks and damaged the jail's porch. The panicked deputies surrendered. GIs quickly secured the building. Paul Cantrell faded into the night, having almost been shot by a GI who knew him, but whose .45 pistol had jammed. Mansfield's deputies were kept overnight in jail for their own safety. Calm soon returned. The GIs posted guards. The rifles borrowed from the armory were cleaned and returned before sunup.

THE AFTERMATH: RESTORING DEMOCRACY

In five precincts free of vote fraud, the GI candidate for sheriff, Knox Henry, won 1,168 votes to Cantrell's 789. Other GI candidates won by similar margins.

The GI's did not hate Cantrell. They only wanted honest government. On August 2, a town meeting set up a three-man governing committee. The regular police having fled, six men were chosen to police Etowah. In addition, "Individual citizens were called upon to form patrols or guard groups, often led by a GI... To their credit, however, there is not a single mention of an abuse of power on their behalf" (Byrum, p. 220).

Once the GI candidates' victory had been certified, they cleaned up county government, the jail was fixed, newly elected officials accepted a $5,000 pay limit and Mansfield supporters who resigned were replaced.

The general election on November 5 passed quietly. McMinn County residents, having restored the rule of law, returned to their daily lives. Pat Mansfield moved back to Georgia. Paul Cantrell set up an auto dealership in Etowah. "Almost everyone who knew Cantrell in the years after the Battle' agree that he was not bitter about what had happened" (Byrum pp. 232-33; see also New York Times, 9 August 1946, p. 8).

The 79th Congress adjourned on August 2, 1946, when the Battle of Athens ended. However, Representative John Jennings Jr. from Tennessee decried McMinn County's sorry situation under Cantrell and Mansfield and the Justice Department's repeated failures to help the McMinn County residents. Jennings was delighted that "...at long last, decency and honesty, liberty and law have returned to the fine county of McMinn.. " (Congressional Record, House; U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., 1946; Appendix, Volume 92, Part 13, p. A4870).

THE LESSONS OF ATHENS

Those who took up arms in Athens, Tennessee, wanted honest elections, a cornerstone of our constitutional order. They had repeatedly tried to get federal or state election monitors and had used armed force so as to minimize harm to the law-breakers, showing little malice to the defeated law-breakers. They restored lawful government.

The Battle of Athens clearly shows how Americans can and should lawfully use armed force and also shows why the rule of law requires unrestricted access to firearms and how civilians with military-type firearms can beat the forces of government gone bad.

Dictators believe that public order is more important than the rule of law. However, Americans reject this idea. Brutal political repression is lethal to many. An individual criminal can harm a handful of people. Governments alone can brutalize thousands, or millions.

Law-abiding McMinn County residents won the Battle of Athens because they were not hamstrung by "gun control " They showed us when citizens can and should use armed force to support the rule of law.
 
EyeWitnesstoHistory.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Bonus Army
In 1924, a grateful Congress voted to give a bonus to World War I veterans - $1.25 for each day served overseas, $1.00 for each day served in the States. The catch was that payment would not be made until 1945. However, by 1932 the nation had slipped into the dark days of the Depression and the unemployed veterans wanted their money immediately.
In May of that year, some 15,000 veterans, many unemployed and destitute, descended on Washington, D.C. to demand immediate payment of their bonus. They proclaimed themselves the Bonus Expeditionary Force but the public dubbed them the "Bonus Army." Raising ramshackle camps at various places around the city, they waited.

The veterans made their largest camp at Anacostia Flats across the river from the Capitol. Approximately 10,000 veterans, women and children lived in the shelters built from materials dragged out of a junk pile nearby - old lumber, packing boxes and scrap tin covered with roofs of thatched straw.

Discipline in the camp was good, despite the fears of many city residents who spread unfounded "Red Scare" rumors. Streets were laid out, latrines dug, and formations held daily. Newcomers were required to register and prove they were bonafide veterans who had been honorably discharged. Their leader, Walter Waters, stated, "We're here for the duration and we're not going to starve. We're going to keep ourselves a simon-pure veteran's organization. If the Bonus is paid it will relieve to a large extent the deplorable economic condition."

June 17 was described by a local newspaper as "the tensest day in the capital since the war." The Senate was voting on the bill already passed by the House to immediately give the vets their bonus money. By dusk, 10,000 marchers crowded the Capitol grounds expectantly awaiting the outcome. Walter Waters, leader of the Bonus Expeditionary Force, appeared with bad news. The Senate had defeated the bill by a vote of 62 to 18. The crowd reacted with stunned silence. "Sing America and go back to your billets" he commanded, and they did. A silent "Death March" began in front of the Capitol and lasted until July 17, when Congress adjourned.

A month later, on July 28, Attorney General Mitchell ordered the evacuation of the veterans from all government property, Entrusted with the job, the Washington police met with resistance, shots were fired and two marchers killed. Learning of the shooting at lunch, President Hoover ordered the army to clear out the veterans. Infantry and cavalry supported by six tanks were dispatched with Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur in command. Major Dwight D. Eisenhower served as his liaison with Washington police and Major George Patton led the cavalry.

By 4:45 P.M. the troops were massed on Pennsylvania Ave. below the Capitol. Thousands of Civil Service employees spilled out of work and lined the streets to watch. The veterans, assuming the military display was in their honor, cheered. Suddenly Patton's troopers turned and charged. "Shame, Shame" the spectators cried. Soldiers with fixed bayonets followed, hurling tear gas into the crowd.

By nightfall the BEF had retreated across the Anacostia River where Hoover ordered MacArthur to stop. Ignoring the command, the general led his infantry to the main camp. By early morning the 10,000 inhabitants were routed and the camp in flames. Two babies died and nearby hospitals overwhelmed with casualties. Eisenhower later wrote, "the whole scene was pitiful. The veterans were ragged, ill-fed, and felt themselves badly abused. To suddenly see the whole encampment going up in flames just added to the pity."

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/snprelief4.htm
 

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