The Truth That Tells a Lie

shagdrum

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The Truth That Tells a Lie
When Obama speaks about health care, he omits crucial details.

By Alex Castellanos

Let’s agree that the U.S. House of Representatives is not the place to use the word “lie” to demean your political opponents. Joe Wilson’s outburst was shameful and uncivil. Just when you think no one could drag political discourse down any lower than it is, along comes Congressman Wilson to shout an insult at our president. The Democratic majority has censured him for that breach.

Should they now censure President Obama for his more composed delivery of the same term?
A few moments before Congressman Wilson lost his cool, President Obama said, “Some of people’s concerns have grown out of bogus claims spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform at any cost. The best example is the claim, made not just by radio and cable talk show hosts, but prominent politicians, that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. Such a charge would be laughable if it weren’t so cynical and irresponsible. It is a lie, plain and simple.”

Whether the president’s charge is true is a separate but important issue we will take up in a moment. First is the issue of fairness. Is it inappropriate for all of our political leaders to call members of the opposing party liars on the floor of the House of Representatives? Or is there a separate standard for President Obama and the members of his party? Joe Wilson’s remark was unplanned. Our president came to Congress pleading for bipartisanship but intending to demean his opponents with the same expression. What standard are we to observe?

Those who would exempt the president from civility tell us his situation is different. It is a fact, they say, that the words “death panel” do not appear in any proposed health-care legislation. They say that it is in fact the president’s opponents who have lied. But have they?

Fact and truth are not the same thing.

On this we can agree: Whoever pays the bills in a health-care system makes the decisions. Whoever controls the money has the power to decide what care seniors and others will get. At times this can be a power of life and death. Under the president’s plan, the government’s control of health-care money, its power to pay or not pay health-care bills, would grow. Add it up: The president has rightly noted that half of health-care costs are incurred by seniors near the ends of their lives. The president has also been clear that he intends for the government to reduce health-care costs. Should seniors not conclude that two and two are four, especially when Democrats have blocked legislation that would prohibit government rationing?

This president believes in government. He would put the cost-saving mechanisms for health care in Washington. He asks politicians, government boards, bureaucrats, and commissions to employ rules, regulations, and mandates to reduce health-care costs. Health-care reform, like most other Obama initiatives, is government-centered and top-down. In other nations where government similarly controls the money and has the power to decide what health care it will and will not pay for, bureaucracies have made decisions that would not be tolerated here. In Britain a few years ago, patients were denied Relenza, flu shots that cost about $40, because the government claimed it had insufficient evidence that the expensive inoculation was effective. Hundreds died. We do not know how many lives might have been saved by a flu shot that is judged to be 70 percent effective. When morgues overflowed, the National Health Service had to rent refrigerated trucks to haul the bodies away.

As President Obama said in his speech, the fact is that “nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have.” But the truth is that millions will lose their coverage when they are dumped into a government-run health-care plan. The fact is that the president has pledged his plan won’t add to the deficit. But the truth is that Americans will have to pay the near-trillion-dollar cost with higher taxes or reductions in their current care. The fact is that the words “death panel” do not appear in legislation. The truth is that government rationing of health care for seniors will have similar consequences.

Pablo Picasso once said, “Art is the lie that tells the truth.” Today, a master of the political arts has turned Picasso on his head. In this debate we have seen that “politics is the fact that tells a lie.” And the biggest lie being told in Washington is charismatic and composed. It is pretending that government rationing of health care at the end of life would not have a deadly effect.
 
Shag - from your article...
On this we can agree: Whoever pays the bills in a health-care system makes the decisions.

So, just as a matter of point - you are more comfortable with private industry making those decisions? They are the ones paying the bill currently. Their boards decide between profit and compassion, care and currency, bottom line and the end of the line... with little or no regulation.

Health care is rationed today under our current private health care insurance system - the companies all have limits on their monetary exposure and after that they dump you on the government systems anyway - leaving you to the tender mercies of Medicare or Medicaid...
 
Where does the article argue that it's important to maintain the status quo?

Because there are perceived problems with one system, it doesn't justify destroying it and replacing it with another system that is entirely worse, but different.

But, before going any further, is this another one of your impassioned arguments FOR the Obamacare/singlepayer/socialized medicine/whatever we call it, that you'll later tell us you don't support from the other side of your mouth?
 
Cal - I am tired of the misrepresentation of many parts of the Obama plan - I am against the public funded option - I have stated that before. There are many parts that I am for - I have stated those as well. I would also like to see some things in the bill that aren't in there currently - I have talked about those too.

Actually- according to many Republicans in congress, they also like many parts of the bill - I think the 80% number has been tossed around quite a bit.

Once again - what we have to watch out for is throwing out the entire package because of some bad parts. Cut the bad, or re-write with only the good...

The idea that we don't currently live with rationed healthcare is a joke - The article is trying to scare people with a misconception... that is what I am trying to point out.

Or do you really believe that insurance companies do not currently ration healthcare?
 
So, just as a matter of point - you are more comfortable with private industry making those decisions?

More comfortable with private industry then government? yes. Why are you not?

They are the ones paying the bill currently.

No, the consumers pay the bills through various means. Private industry facilitates the consumers.

Their boards decide between profit and compassion, care and currency, bottom line and the end of the line

Can you say, "false dilemma"?

...with little or no regulation.

Actually, it is one of most heavily regulated industries in the country, if not the single most heavily regulated.


Health care is rationed today under our current private health care insurance system -

Healthcare is only rationed today in a strictly metaphorical sense. That is completely different then direct, conscious rationing under socialized medicine.

the companies all have limits on their monetary exposure and after that they dump you on the government systems anyway - leaving you to the tender mercies of Medicare or Medicaid...

...or you can find other means. That is a huge difference then under socialized medicine.

Cal already pointed out how you are mischaracterizing to create a false dilemma between the healthcare bill and the status quo. A mischaracterization that really only serves to reframe the debate in favor of the healthcare bill. Not really the action of someone truly opposed to the plan..

And don't start with the "misrepresentation of the plan" thing. You say that, then work furiously to dismiss the arguments against the plan rather then actually understand them. Just like your boy Obama. :rolleyes:

We also have your two faced claims (again, like Obama) to contend with as well; specifically your claim that you are against this healthcare bill (and single payer systems in general) and that you actually engage others on this forum to understand their point of view. In both cases your habitual actions on this forum (and in this thread specifically) show otherwise...
 
More comfortable with private industry then government? yes. Why are you not?
Because I have watched private industry run roughshod over the American people before - many times - all in the name of the mighty dollar. They were well on their way to destroying our waterways, our air, our very soil. They destroy people's health by not releasing the truth about what their products do to our bodies. The current health care insurance companies ration payment of care, and then dump the aged and the sick on the government plans anyway. Without good government oversight, no, I am not more comfortable with private industry than government. I am not comfortable with anything in private industry other than that private industry can be depended on to make the most money it can for its shareholders and owners.

No, the consumers pay the bills through various means. Private industry facilitates the consumers.

Private industry is who pays the bills- that is who signs the check.

Otherwise you have to go with - Consumers pay if there are government programs - the consumers pay the taxes - the government signs the check - what is the difference shag? It would be a 'various means'... wouldn't it?

Actually, it is one of most heavily regulated industries in the country, if not the single most heavily regulated.

Not even close when it comes to how they end up paying out shag - Automotive is far more heavily regulated, food chain, work place, and many more are regulated far more than private health care insurance.
Healthcare is only rationed today in a strictly metaphorical sense. That is completely different then direct, conscious rationing under socialized medicine.

And what is the metaphor shag? They only ration how much they will spend on your health care? They ration what tests they pay for? They ration what procedures they pay for? They ration what medications they pay for? Want to show me the metaphor? Want to show me what isn't 'literal' there as far as rationing? And isn't that rationing the direct, conscious mindset that reflects their interests in holding costs down and creating the optimum profit performance that they can for their shareholders? They are businesses shag - they are answerable to the shareholders. If they have to ration money (which in turn rations healthcare opportunities for their customers) to increase the bottom line, they do. They are in the business to make money, and the more the better. They are not in the business of making people well.

And want to show me in the bill where healthcare rationing will be happening under the current bill? I assume you are assuming that shag - because, in fact, the bill goes quite a way in making sure healthcare isn't rationed by private insurance companies. For instance, they aren't allowed to set arbitrary caps under this piece of legislation...

Or is it the whole payment thing - that the insurance companies are only rationing the money end. That you are allowed to pay for the battery of tests that will run $50,000 out of your own pocket, even though you have been paying your health insurance too? Rationing of funds is still rationing shag. People depend on their healthcare to take care of them. They spend the money with their insurance company because they don't have the $50,000 saved up to run those tests. Partially because they have been spending the equivalent in today dollars of $6,000 a year on premiums for the last 20 years. Which the insurance company happily pocketed, invested, and made a great deal of money on.

...or you can find other means. That is a huge difference then under socialized medicine.

There is nothing in the bill that states you can't buy health care outright. If you go into a hospital, plunk down the $50,000 for those tests - they will run them, now, under Obama's plan, under any plan. That is a misrepresentation on your part shag - unless you can show me in the bill where it states that. The extremely wealthly who pay on their own won't be affected at all. They can still go in with a blank check and get whatever they want, under any scenario.

We also have your two faced claims (again, like Obama) to contend with as well; specifically your claim that you are against this healthcare bill (and single payer systems in general) and that you actually engage others on this forum to understand their point of view. In both cases your habitual actions on this forum show otherwise...

shag - I have been very clear about the parts of the bill I like - this is like most bills as it has bad parts and good parts. If it hinges on the public funded option, I would rather the bill not go through at all.

So, shag - you really think that current health care companies don't ration health care through their policies of denying payment of care (in the form of denying tests, procedures and medicines)?
 
So you trust politicians more than capitalism.
And you are again arguing that we need to abandon capitalism.

Where does the FEDERAL government get the constitutional power to do this? Where does the fed government get the authority to mandate our health care and to take over the industry.
 
Because I have watched private industry run roughshod over the American people before - many times - all in the name of the mighty dollar.

So...working in your financial self interest is bad. Got it. How do you feel about someone working in their political self interest?

Also, how exactly is private industry "riding roughshod" over the American people?

Private industry is who pays the bills- that is who signs the check.

No, it is the consumer who signs the checks. Either directly or indirectly through purchasing of insurance and giving up some compensation in the form of wages.

Any way you slice it, it is ultimately the consumer paying for it.

Not even close when it comes to how they end up paying out shag - Automotive is far more heavily regulated, food chain, work place, and many more are regulated far more than private health care insurance.

FYI: "when it comes to how they end up paying for it" has absolutely NOTHING to do with weather or not the health care industry (or the insurance industry to be specific) is heavily regulated or not.

The simply fact that you are unable to purchase insurance across state lines proves that the health insurance industry is far more heavily regulated then the automotive industry.

But if you wanna look at the automotive industry, how has it been doing lately with all it's regulations and government intervention? How has that whole "Cash for Clunkers" thing been working out?

Last I read, around $46 out of every $100 dollars spent on healthcare in this country comes from the government in some fashion. But they are not regulated that much. :rolleyes:

And what is the metaphor shag? They only ration how much they will spend on your health care? They ration what tests they pay for? They ration what procedures they pay for? They ration what medications they pay for?

Private health insurance does not have the ability to ration. All they can do is refuse to pay for a procedure. You are free to try and pay for it out of pocket or, more importantly, leave that provider for a different one.

For instance, they aren't allowed to set arbitrary caps under this piece of legislation...

Just like the Medicare bill of 1965 prevented anything in that bill from being, "construed to authorize any federal officer or employee to exercise any supervision or control over the practice of medicine, or the manner in which medical services are provided, or over the selection, tenure, or compensation of any officer, or employee, or any institution, agency or person providing health care services" :rolleyes:

Please tell me how this program is going to actually "save money" instead of adding to the deficit if not through rationing, ultimately?

Rationing of funds is still rationing shag

Again, the private health insurance industry doesn't have the ability to ration. You don't really seem to understand what rationing is and is not.

you are allowed to pay for the battery of tests that will run $50,000 out of your own pocket

Ever wondered why you need a "battery" of tests to confirm something the doctor already suspects? Or why the procedure in question is $50,000, and got to that high of a price by increasing at a multiple of the rate of inflation year after year?

There is nothing in the bill that states you can't buy health care outright.

Ever hear of the difference between static and dynamic analysis?

If you go into a hospital, plunk down the $50,000 for those tests - they will run them, now, under Obama's plan, under any plan. That is a misrepresentation on your part shag - unless you can show me in the bill where it states that.

Actually, no that is a misrepresentation of my argument on your part. Considering how much this has been discussed recently on this forum, it is hard to believe that your mischaracterization is simply ignorance on your part...

The extremely wealthy who pay on their own won't be affected at all.

They will be forced to buy insurance that they don't need under this bill as well as subsidize the insurance of those in the lower income brackets who cannot afford insurance. You consider that "unaffected"?

So, shag - you really think that current health care companies don't ration health care through their policies of denying payment of care (in the form of denying tests, procedures and medicines)?

"denying payment" is not necessarily the same as rationing. You are equating the two when they are not the same thing.
 
So you trust politicians more than capitalism.
And you are again arguing that we need to abandon capitalism.

Where does the FEDERAL government get the constitutional power to do this? Where does the fed government get the authority to mandate our health care and to take over the industry.

When businessmen decide that they are a law unto themselves is when someone steps in Cal - I don't trust all politicians or all government, but I do know I get to vote them out if they fail. I do not get to vote out the CEO of Dow Chemical if he pollutes the Hudson so badly that it catches on fire. Only the government has the power to make sure that he doesn't pollute the air so badly that it causes cancer.

I like capitalism, however, I don't think that unfettered capitalism works because of the irreversible nature of man. Man is greedy - some men are more greedy than others. They will do anything for money, including harming others. Whether it is armed robbery at a liquor store, or the type of robbery practiced by unscrupulous businessmen-there is a reason we have laws, and ever changing laws.
 
Unless you are arguing that the government should TAKE OVER and RUN Dow chemicals, you're engaging in disinformation again, foxpaws.
No one said that we should live in a state of chaos, without rule of law.

You are lying again, foxpaws. But in the realm of politics, you do that as easily and naturally as you breathe, don't you. The ends are all that matters to you.

Again, where does the FEDERAL government get the power to mandate behavior and take over private industry.
 
Let me fix this for you:

I don't think that unfettered governmet works because of the irreversible nature of man. Man is greedy - some men are more greedy than others. They will do anything for power, including harming others. Whether it is armed robbery through the power or the state, or the type of robbery practiced by unscrupulous congressmen and the IRS- there is a reason we have laws, and ever changing laws.
 
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When businessmen decide that they are a law unto themselves is when someone steps in Cal - I don't trust all politicians or all government, but I do know I get to vote them out if they fail. I do not get to vote out the CEO of Dow Chemical if he pollutes the Hudson so badly that it catches on fire. Only the government has the power to make sure that he doesn't pollute the air so badly that it causes cancer.

You can vote congressmen out...AFTER they take away liberties and do irreparable harm to society and the economy. Businesses do not have the reach that government does in doing that kind of harm. When businesses fail, you get Enrons, when government's fail, you get Totalitarian regimes, War, etc., etc.

Also, if a business does wrong, you always have the option of leaving that business for another. Something you do not have with the Federal Government.


I like capitalism, however, I don't think that unfettered capitalism works because of the irreversible nature of man. Man is greedy - some men are more greedy than others. They will do anything for money, including harming others. Whether it is armed robbery at a liquor store, or the type of robbery practiced by unscrupulous businessmen-there is a reason we have laws, and ever changing laws.

"Greed" isn't the right word; human nature is inherently self-interested. After a certain degree, self-interest can be excessive, which can lead to greed.

Now, if that self-interest (or greed, as you seem to characterize it) is a flaw in capitalism, how does government regulation/involvement somehow fix that?
 
Unless you are arguing that the government should TAKE OVER and RUN Dow chemicals, you're engaging in disinformation again, foxpaws.
No one said that we should live in a state of chaos, without rule of law.

You are lying again, foxpaws. But in the realm of politics, you do that as easily and naturally as you breathe, don't you. The ends are all that matters to you.

Again, where does the FEDERAL government get the power to mandate behavior and take over private industry.

How am I lying - you said I want to abandon capitalism - I don't - what I don't want is unfettered capitalism, you can't see the difference Cal?

I don't think the government should take over and run Dow Chemicals - but I do believe that the government should enact laws that prevent Dow Chemical from hurting people and the environment.
Where does the FEDERAL government get the constitutional power to do this?
Cal, the constitution doesn't protect people from business - it protects people from the government. It is a document that deals with individual freedoms and how the government needs to protect individual freedoms. Not some sort of undefined business freedoms. Do you think there is a bill of rights in the constitution that protect businesses? And it is the document that states how our government is set up, the rules that our government needs to follow, and how the government functions.

As I said it doesn't protect people from business, it doesn't even protect people from people. Laws are enacted to take care of those cases.

Or - a better way to put this is to say - where in the constitution is the mandate that we don't kill each other, or we don't steal from each other, or we don't harm each other? Those types of laws aren't in the Constitution. Those are laws that are enacted by our various levels of government. Just as there isn't any defined laws that mandate how business is governed. That isn't what the constitution was crafted for. It was crafted for individual rights, to protect individuals from the government, and to state certain powers of the government - such as common defense and general welfare. The founding fathers certainly didn't see it as a be all to end all as far as law. They expected the congress to enact laws that would protect people, to further define government, to protect its borders. It is in article one - that laws would be enacted and how and who gets to enact those laws.

What else did I say Cal - point out the lie. You seem to know everything about me - so where is the lie? I could state that you are lying because you are saying I am lying - but, since you haven't defined my 'lie' I am at a loss at this point. Define the lie Cal.

And, you are right - your rework of my paragraph works as well - I don't believe in unfettered government (if you notice I did say I don't trust all politicians or all government either - but I do trust the method that we have in place - the constitution, to control the government). The government is answerable to the people - isn't it? Don't we have the opportunity to vote the people out of office when they come up for re-election? If you don't like the direction, protest, vote, work to get someone else elected.

You can vote congressmen out...AFTER they take away liberties and do irreparable harm to society and the economy. Businesses do not have the reach that government does in doing that kind of harm. When businesses fail, you get Enrons, when government's fail, you get Totalitarian regimes, War, etc., etc.

And Shag - if the government fails - who fails - don't the people fail? Unless we are vigilant do we deserve the government we voted in? Do we end up with government by mob rule? Did the founding fathers have it wrong? How should we change the way people are elected or rule? Don't you think that the cycle of elections is the correct system of checks in our system? Can't things always be changed? Repealed? Recalled? Yes they can - if the people demand it.

Also, if a business does wrong, you always have the option of leaving that business for another. Something you do not have with the Federal Government.

If a business does wrong I can leave the business? I think you mean I can give my patronage and money to a different business if I disagree with their business practices. But would that have made any difference in the amount of environmental damage Dow was inflicting on people? They spent much time and money hiding their actions. Who is going to spend the time investigating them? What would be the capitalistic gain to do that? You need the government to watchdog them, to enact laws.

"Greed" isn't the right word; human nature is inherently self-interested. After a certain degree, self-interest can be excessive, which can lead to greed.

Now, if that self-interest (or greed, as you seem to characterize it) is a flaw in capitalism, how does government regulation/involvement somehow fix that?

I can see where greed should be defined as inherent self interest gone amuck. And I don't think anyone or anything can fix those people who are greedy. What I can see is that the government can enact laws that protect people from that greed. You have to assume the president of the bank isn't so greedy that he will run off with the funds. But, if he is that greedy, here are laws with punishments that hopefully deter him from doing just that. If they don't, then he pays a price (If caught).
 
Cal, the constitution doesn't protect people from business - it protects people from the government. It is a document that deals with individual freedoms and how the government needs to protect individual freedoms. Not some sort of undefined business freedoms. Do you think there is a bill of rights in the constitution that protect businesses? And it is the document that states how our government is set up, the rules that our government needs to follow, and how the government functions.

As I said it doesn't protect people from business, it doesn't even protect people from people. Laws are enacted to take care of those cases.

So...because it isn't specifically forbidden in the Constitution it is allowable? That is such an absurd argument that even the two most liberal justices on the SCOTUS wouldn't buy it; Ginsburg and Sotomayer. Why? Because of a little thing called the 10TH AMENDMENT!!!!

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Even those two justices are not so sloppy or dishonest as to miss and/or ignore completely that amendment.

All you are doing is grasping at straws in trying to rationalize federal regulation of business.

FYI: the strongest argument for federal regulation of business lies in the Interstate Commerce Clause (Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3), and the General Welfare Clause (Article I, Section 8, Clause 1). However, even those arguments are highly flawed.

Or - a better way to put this is to say - where in the constitution is the mandate that we don't kill each other, or we don't steal from each other, or we don't harm each other? Those types of laws aren't in the Constitution. Those are laws that are enacted by our various levels of government. Just as there isn't any defined laws that mandate how business is governed.

More deception or just plain ignorance (unlikely). Those laws (against murder, stealing, etc) are CLEARLY ALLOWED for by the Federal government under the constitution. The laws of business regulation are, with some exceptions) not allowed for under the Constitution. More specifically the healthcare reform being pushed through, especially with it's individual mandate, is FORBIDDEN by the Constitution.

That isn't what the constitution was crafted for. It was crafted for individual rights, to protect individuals from the government,

Including the right to PROPERTY!!! That would include BUSINESSES!

What else did I say Cal - point out the lie. You seem to know everything about me - so where is the lie?

A lie of omission is still a lie. Either you are simply ignorant about things here or you are intentionally misleading and deceiving. Your history on this forum tends to suggest the later to be the case...

And Shag - if the government fails - who fails - don't the people fail?

The people in government fail, yes. But that depends on what their goals are. Failure to do what is best for the American people and failure in meeting their goals may not be the same thing.

Unless we are vigilant do we deserve the government we voted in? Do we end up with government by mob rule? Did the founding fathers have it wrong? How should we change the way people are elected or rule? Don't you think that the cycle of elections is the correct system of checks in our system?

More mischaracterization and deception. :rolleyes:

Can't things always be changed? Repealed? Recalled? Yes they can - if the people demand it.

Things can be repealed, but the damage is likely already done. The 18th amendment was repealed but that didn't negate all the murders related to prohibition during that time due to liquor going to the black market.

And it is always much harder to remove a law already in place then it is to avoid a bad law in the first. Hence the absolute necessity of the precautionary principle in examining potential laws.

If a business does wrong I can leave the business? I think you mean I can give my patronage and money to a different business if I disagree with their business practices. But would that have made any difference in the amount of environmental damage Dow was inflicting on people?

Yes, in the long run. The free market already has a very strong system of checks and balances in place. Leaving the business is one of those...

Who is going to spend the time investigating them? What would be the capitalistic gain to do that?

That is the media's job. They stand to gain (and have) by doing that.

I can see where greed should be defined as inherent self interest gone amuck. And I don't think anyone or anything can fix those people who are greedy. What I can see is that the government can enact laws that protect people from that greed. You have to assume the president of the bank isn't so greedy that he will run off with the funds. But, if he is that greedy, here are laws with punishments that hopefully deter him from doing just that. If they don't, then he pays a price (If caught).

So... these businesses can be greedy due to individuals who are greedy in those businesses and their inherent human nature that leads to greediness. However, there is no greediness on the part of the individuals who create the laws to oversee these businesses or on the part of the individuals who enforce these laws? How do you reach that conclusion?

If human nature is predisposed to greediness, then it has just as much chance of effecting the laws and governmental institutions created by humans as it does in effecting the businesses created by humans.

Also, businesses cannot enact their own internal policies to protect themselves against greedy individuals in the business? They have no interest in doing that?
 
All you are doing is grasping at straws in trying to rationalize federal regulation of business.

FYI: the strongest argument for federal regulation of business lies in the Interstate Commerce Clause (Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3), and the General Welfare Clause (Article I, Section 8, Clause 1). However, even those arguments are highly flawed.

Show me in the constitution shag where it specifically says that the federal government cannot enact laws that regulate business. I want the specific Article, Section and Clause. I know what I, 8, 3 says... it doesn't allow or disallow. I am looking for the section that says specifically that no laws shall be made by the federal government that regulate business.

More deception or just plain ignorance (unlikely). Those laws (against murder, stealing, etc) are CLEARLY ALLOWED for by the Federal government under the constitution. The laws of business regulation are, with some exceptions) not allowed for under the Constitution. More specifically the healthcare reform being pushed through, especially with it's individual mandate, is FORBIDDEN by the Constitution.

Once again - show me the FORBIDDEN clause in the Constitution where it discusses the laws that deal with business. You keep talking about it how about quoting it shag?

Including the right to PROPERTY!!! That would include BUSINESSES!

The right to property (along with liberty and life) - isn't that in the Declaration? Or are you talking about the 5th- where we won't be deprived of life, liberty and property without due process of law? So where is the unalienable right to property or ‘business’ in the constitution. So, if you are going with the Declaration, your rights are not allowed to trounce on my rights. Your right to property (business) doesn’t override my right to life.

More mischaracterization and deception. :rolleyes:
So, shag- tell me exactly what is deceptive about this paragraph.
Unless we are vigilant do we deserve the government we voted in? Do we end up with government by mob rule? Did the founding fathers have it wrong? How should we change the way people are elected or rule? Don't you think that the cycle of elections is the correct system of checks in our system?
Don't we deserve the government we vote in? For good or bad, that is the way the founding fathers have set up this government. Our check and balances come into play because we can vote out those leaders and representatives. So, rather than just label this as deception - really show me where I have deceived anyone in that paragraph.

Things can be repealed, but the damage is likely already done. The 18th amendment was repealed but that didn't negate all the murders related to prohibition during that time due to liquor going to the black market

The damage that was done cannot be undone - but you can prevent further or future damage. If the people or leaders (depending on the type of ‘law’ you are discussing – in this case, the 18th, the ‘people’ approved that law) thought it was a good idea, voted it in, and then discover that it is bad, that is the price we pay for having the type of government we have shag. It isn't perfect because people aren't perfect. Flawed laws will be passed. Sometimes they are fine for the time they were crafted, but age, and become obsolete. Sometimes unintended consequences arise and those are either dealt with in other laws, or the original law is amended or scrapped. But, in many ways this is still an imperfect experiment. We have the balance of the court and the executive branch that looks at those laws, review them, for the people. There is your check and balance.

That is the media's job. They stand to gain (and have) by doing that.

The media doesn't have the muscle, or constitutional right to go into a company and demand to see documents or 'proof' of illegal activities. Only the government does, and only after a long set of checks are satisfied. That a crime is genuinely suspected, that the proper channels have been adhered to, that the constitution is being upheld. So, when the company hides the truth, unless there is a red flag, and unless the media is somehow alerted to that red flag – that truth could remain hidden for such a long time that a lot of damage could be inflicted. The hidden truth can inflect very real harm, with perhaps zero consequences, unless we have government oversight.

So... these businesses can be greedy due to individuals who are greedy in those businesses and their inherent human nature that leads to greediness. However, there is no greediness on the part of the individuals who create the laws to oversee these businesses or on the part of the individuals who enforce these laws? How do you reach that conclusion?
If human nature is predisposed to greediness, then it has just as much chance of effecting the laws and governmental institutions created by humans as it does in effecting the businesses created by humans.

Sure, there can be greediness inherent in the laws as well- I didn't indicate that might not be the case shag. There could be reasons that a senator thinks that child pornography laws are bad. But, you need laws. You elect people who you believe will create laws that are fair and just. But, shag - we are not a democracy, we can't have 'the people' creating the laws. That isn't in the constitution. The checks and balances of executive and judicial oversee the people who create laws and protect the people if those laws are bad. Or we have the opportunity to vote in new representatives who will alter or remove the bad laws and create better, more just laws.

Also, businesses cannot enact their own internal policies to protect themselves against greedy individuals in the business? They have no interest in doing that?
Certainly they can. And there might be some interest for the business to do that. However, the business might create a law that states the bank president can't run off with the funds - nice rule. But the only punishment they could enact would be to fire him. Without government laws, there can be no restitution, no jail time, no removal of liberty. The business law would have little or no 'bite'. So shag, as you can see, business also depends on the government to create laws to protect them from the ‘greedy’ individual.
 
When businessmen decide that they are a law unto themselves is when someone steps in Cal -
And yet you've failed to provide any examples of this.
I don't trust all politicians or all government, but I do know I get to vote them out if they fail.
No you don't. You can't vote the FCC out of office, for example.
I do not get to vote out the CEO of Dow Chemical if he pollutes the Hudson so badly that it catches on fire.
When did this happen? Got a link?
Only the government has the power to make sure that he doesn't pollute the air so badly that it causes cancer.
When did this happen? Got a link?
I like capitalism, however, I don't think that unfettered capitalism works because of the irreversible nature of man.
There you go again. We can disregard anything you said before the 'however.' I have a question for you, HOWEVER. Did America become great while capitalistic or while socialistic?
Man is greedy - some men are more greedy than others.
Being a little sexist today? I've seen women like you, embittered by living alone, hating all men. Do you regularly wear a bandanna on your head?
They will do anything for money, including harming others. Whether it is armed robbery at a liquor store, or the type of robbery practiced by unscrupulous businessmen-there is a reason we have laws, and ever changing laws.
Bashing men again, eh? How do you feel about politicians who do worse than that, such as Dianne Feinstein, who has steered government money towards her husband's business?
 
The right to property (along with liberty and life) - isn't that in the Declaration? Or are you talking about the 5th- where we won't be deprived of life, liberty and property without due process of law? So where is the unalienable right to property or ‘business’ in the constitution. So, if you are going with the Declaration, your rights are not allowed to trounce on my rights. Your right to property (business) doesn’t override my right to life.
Surely you've heard of the phrase 'caveat emptor.' :rolleyes:
 
Show me in the constitution shag where it specifically says that the federal government cannot enact laws that regulate business.

Actually, the burden of proof is on you on this one, not the other way around. Don't try and shift the burden of proof to me; it is dishonest and not arguing in good faith. Again.

Read the tenth amendment (one you seem to like to ignore). That amendment alone puts the burden of proof on you on this one. You have to show that what you are asserting is allowed under the constitution. I will take your attempt to shift the burden of proof as an admission that you cannot do that. ;)

The right to property (along with liberty and life) - isn't that in the Declaration? Or are you talking about the 5th- where we won't be deprived of life, liberty and property without due process of law?

Now, in your ignorance, you are attempting to move the goalposts. Again. :rolleyes:

If you would stop trying to ignore the philosophical underpinnings this country was founded on, you would know that life, liberty and property are all natural rights per John Locke. The Framers expanded the area of property to be a "right to the pursuit of happiness". And, yes, the right to property is part of the broader right to happiness mentioned in the Declaration.

So, shag- tell me exactly what is deceptive about this paragraph.
Unless we are vigilant do we deserve the government we voted in? Do we end up with government by mob rule? Did the founding fathers have it wrong? How should we change the way people are elected or rule? Don't you think that the cycle of elections is the correct system of checks in our system?
Don't we deserve the government we vote in? For good or bad, that is the way the founding fathers have set up this government. Our check and balances come into play because we can vote out those leaders and representatives. So, rather than just label this as deception - really show me where I have deceived anyone in that paragraph.

Why? So we can go 'round and 'round as you try and rationalize your remarks, likely mischaracterizing me some more in the process?

How about you look at what you were responding to and try and figure it out for yourself. If you get it right, I will let you know.

The damage that was done cannot be undone - but you can prevent further or future damage.

Downplay and deflect. More discussion in good faith. :rolleyes:

The media doesn't have the muscle, or constitutional right to go into a company and demand to see documents or 'proof' of illegal activities. Only the government does, and only after a long set of checks are satisfied.

Two different things and you know it. We were not talking about alleged criminal activity earlier. Now you are changing the subject.

Besides, the free market would end up correcting this in the long run. Do you know how? You alluded to it earlier...

Sure, there can be greediness inherent in the laws as well- I didn't indicate that might not be the case shag.

No, what you said did inherently imply that. You simply didn't realize it. When you actually take the time to critically examine those ideas that you are simply accepting, you realize that it is ultimately based on an assumption government can correct human nature in the area of greed and that government is not susceptible (or as susceptible) to that greed.

But, shag - we are not a democracy, we can't have 'the people' creating the laws. That isn't in the constitution.

More mischaracterization. Unbelievable.

Certainly they can. And there might be some interest for the business to do that.

Who has more of a vested interest in protecting themselves from greed? The business in question or the government over the business?

However, the business might create a law that states the bank president can't run off with the funds - nice rule. But the only punishment they could enact would be to fire him. Without government laws, there can be no restitution, no jail time, no removal of liberty. The business law would have little or no 'bite'. So shag, as you can see, business also depends on the government to create laws to protect them from the ‘greedy’ individual.

That is a misleading red herring.

The type of laws you are talking about are applicable to all of society.

That is entirely different then regulation of business. Do change the subject. It is rude.
 
Actually, the burden of proof is on you on this one, not the other way around. Don't try and shift the burden of proof to me; it is dishonest and not arguing in good faith. Again.

Read the tenth amendment (one you seem to like to ignore). That amendment alone puts the burden of proof on you on this one. You have to show that what you are asserting is allowed under the constitution. I will take your attempt to shift the burden of proof as an admission that you cannot do that. ;)

The 10th...
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The constitution very specifically allows congress to create law (1st Article). So, regulation of business by passing appropriate laws, is allowed in the constitution.

Do you have anything that says differently Shag? Do you have that section where you discussed how the constitution FORBIDS (your emphasis, not mine) regulation of business. Congress is allowed to pass laws. Business regulations are laws. The constitution allows for the passages of laws by the congress... got the train of thought here shag? Since you were quick to claim 'shifted burden of proof' may I say, where is yours - you have mine...

If you would stop trying to ignore the philosophical underpinnings this country was founded on, you would know that life, liberty and property are all natural rights per John Locke. The Framers expanded the area of property to be a "right to the pursuit of happiness". And, yes, the right to property is part of the broader right to happiness mentioned in the Declaration.

Jefferson in particular expanded on the rights of property to the larger 'right to the pursuit of happiness'. So, you are allowed to pursue your happiness - as long as that pursuit does not infringe on others rights (my rights) - correct shag? So if your pursuit of business - (the pursuit of happiness) infringes on my right to live (breathing air that won't kill me) then the government steps in with laws and regulations to protect my right by not allowing your 'happiness' (once again, business) to stomp on my right. It is right there in the Declaration of Independence - not law of the land, but spirit of the land.

How about you look at what you were responding to and try and figure it out for yourself. If you get it right, I will let you know.

So shag, obviously by avoiding the 'deception' question you have no answer. I deceived no one in the paragraph where you accused me of deception and mischaracterization. It becomes painfully apparent that, in fact, you revert to spineless accusations, and then when confronted with this little particular, you just start talking in circles, in hopes that others will forget the fact that you can't point to any deception at all.

Two different things and you know it. We were not talking about alleged criminal activity earlier. Now you are changing the subject.

Besides, the free market would end up correcting this in the long run. Do you know how? You alluded to it earlier...

Polluting the Hudson to the point it catches on fire is a crime, and is punished as such. Corporate crime is a 'crime', people get arrested, put in jail and punished for it shag. I am not changing the subject at all.

How does the market correct covert polluting? The company dumps its waste, in a manner that makes it difficult, if not impossible for anyone other than the government with its ability to subpoena the company for evidence or issue warrants for searches. So, unless the government is a watchdog, the company is actually rewarded for dumping the waste. It is cheaper than disposing of it properly, profits are greater, the bottom line improves. The market rewards, it doesn't punish in this case.

So tell me how the market corrects this problem shag - with no government oversight?
No, what you said did inherently imply that. You simply didn't realize it. When you actually take the time to critically examine those ideas that you are simply accepting, you realize that it is ultimately based on an assumption government can correct human nature in the area of greed and that government is not susceptible (or as susceptible) to that greed.

So, you are trying to claim that you have some sort of magical insight to what I implied and that I simply just don't realize my true implications that are hidden, apparently to everyone but you shag?
This is what I stated...

And I don't think anyone or anything can fix those people who are greedy. What I can see is that the government can enact laws that protect people from that greed.
Give me some credit... I know what I said and what I meant, which are exactly the same thing. The government (part of my all encompassing 'anything') can't fix people. I didn't imply anything else - I very clearly stated what I meant...

Government has the tools to hopefully protect us from the greed of others. They can go and place restrictions on businesses or close them down if they are acting irresponsibly.

So, government won't change people. Deterring them, perhaps with laws and punishments... You might think twice about killing someone if you know that if caught and convicted you might die yourself. But, there is no guarantee of that. And the fact that you might not do it because of the consequences doesn't mean you didn't want to do it - it didn't change your 'nature'.

Who has more of a vested interest in protecting themselves from greed? The business in question or the government over the business?

Depends on the business. A single owner company can actually function quite well on the greed factor. Some sections of corporations can use the greed factor to their advantage when doctoring books or bending the laws to show a false picture to their shareholders. Greed can be advantageous to business, and can be rewarded as well.
 
The 10th...
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The constitution very specifically allows congress to create law (1st Article). So, regulation of business by passing appropriate laws, is allowed in the constitution.

Do you have anything that says differently Shag? Do you have that section where you discussed how the constitution FORBIDS (your emphasis, not mine) regulation of business. Congress is allowed to pass laws. Business regulations are laws. The constitution allows for the passages of laws by the congress... got the train of thought here shag? Since you were quick to claim 'shifted burden of proof' may I say, where is yours - you have mine...

So...because the Constitution allows them to make laws they are allowed to make whatever laws they want?! :rolleyes:

Then what is the purpose of the enumerated powers in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights (specifically the 10th amendment). When you read those documents it is clear that the Federal government is only allowed to to make laws in certain specific areas.

The burden of proof is on you to show that one of those specific area allows for the regulation of business. Instead, you have tried to show that Congress can make laws in any area that they want, which was explicitly rejected at the Constitutional Convention. In fact, that was the reason they enumerated the powers of Congress and, more importantly, created the Bill of Rights and specifically the tenth amendment. You are actively working to ignore and downplay those which inherently distorts the Constitution.

But you are clearly hell bent on injecting another false premise into a discussion at any cost; specifically that the burden of proof is somehow on me here when it is not. You have yet to show any Constitutional basis for the Healthcare legislation or the regulation of business, despite my giving you the two best arguments for it.

The Constitution is very specific in what it says and you are working desperately to distort that to defend your preconceived notions. An action that is inherently without any intellectual integrity.
 
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OK shag - show me in the constitution where it disallows a law that gives the government the right to break up monopolies. Or is the Sherman Act unconstitutional? It has withstood many showings in the supreme court. Here is a law that specifically deals with business regulation. It has weathered many supreme court battles, and was found to be 'constitutional'. Interstate Commerce Shag.... And almost all business these days deals with Interstate Commerce. So, obviously federal level business regulation is allowed under the constitution. Or is there something inherently different about the Sherman Act that would differentiate it from other federal level business regulation laws?
 
OK shag - show me in the constitution where it disallows a law that gives the government the right to break up monopolies. Or is the Sherman Act unconstitutional?
It's right next to the quote about 'separation of church and state' and 'the right to an abortion.' :rolleyes: Surely you support those?
 
OK shag - show me in the constitution where it disallows a law that gives the government the right to break up monopolies. Or is the Sherman Act unconstitutional? It has withstood many showings in the supreme court. Here is a law that specifically deals with business regulation. It has weathered many supreme court battles, and was found to be 'constitutional'. Interstate Commerce Shag.... And almost all business these days deals with Interstate Commerce. So, obviously federal level business regulation is allowed under the constitution. Or is there something inherently different about the Sherman Act that would differentiate it from other federal level business regulation laws?

Now you are going to try and go with the argument I gave you?!

The Interstate Commerce clause is arguably the most (intentionally) misinterpreted, distorted and abused provision in the Constitution. While I could give you a run down of how and why (as well as the history of how) it has been manipulated, defined down and abused, you would simply try and manipulate, distort, define down, etc. those facts as well until it somehow fits into your preconceived notion. If you are not going to engage in an honest discussion (which you never do), I am not going attempt to have one with you. All that serves to do is give you fodder to continue your lies and distortions.

If you are genuinely interested in understanding alternative points of view (as you have claimed) then you will HAVE to state discussing things in good faith (as you have NOT done).

FYI: simply because the SCOTUS has upheld a law doesn't mean that the law is Constitutional. It only means that, in those nine justices estimation, it was Constitutional in the context of the case in which it was brought before the SCOTUS.

Also, you are still trying to shift the burden of proof here. The burden of proof is, and always has been on you to show the textual (Constitutional) justification for the general regulation of business. You can't and are clearly grasping at straws here (by now simply repeating the argument I gave you, which you clearly don't understand). Trying to shift the burden of proof to me is dishonest because it intentionally ignores the Framers views and principles in the creation of the constitution.

The Federal government, under the Constitution was generally forbidden from creating laws. The exceptions to that rule were specifically enumerated in the Constitution. You are ignoring that fact and trying to spin it 180 degrees out of whack to fit your preconceived notions.

If you are not going to discuss things in good faith, then you are wasting both my time and the time of everyone else on this forum.
 
Shag - so if the supreme court isn't the final arbitrator on deciding the constitutionality of a law - who is? You?

As I said earlier I know about 1, 8, 3 - I didn't need a schoolboy primer...And it is what gives the federal government the 'right' to regulate business. It is what has held up the Sherman Act an every other similar act. So, in each case the supreme court has come down on the side that the federal government can, to some extent, regulate business. Since it has ruled over and over again in favor of the government, I would say that the sheer ponderous of opinion would indicate that most courts are in agreement that within the constitution those laws are allowed.

You might not agree with the court on many (or in your case shag I would say most things), but they are the final say. It is the way the founding fathers mapped out our form of government.

Oh, I would actually rather go with the last section in 1-8 and compare it to the preamble... where in 1-8-4 congress is tasked to create law which allows for the execution of all the powers vested in the constitution, and since the preamble contains the guiding principals in the constitution, certainly congress can create laws to execute those most important ideals - justice, tranquility, defense, general welfare, and to secure liberty.

However, I would really like to get back to the fact that healthcare insurance does ration healthcare by not paying for things, and by placing lifetime limits on their policies.

Let's use a government program as an example - let's use medicare. We all pay into medicare - it is a type of government single payer health insurance for when we get old.

If the government said that you have only $1,000,000 in your medicare account, and after that you are on your own - would you say that is rationing? That is what private insurers do - they give you a limit, and after that, you are shoved off to medicaid.

Many people are using a similar scenario to show how government will ration heathcare. Why is the insurance industry not rationing and the government is rationing?
 
Should they now censure President Obama for his more composed delivery of the same term?
A few moments before Congressman Wilson lost his cool, President Obama said, “Some of people’s concerns have grown out of bogus claims spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform at any cost. The best example is the claim, made not just by radio and cable talk show hosts, but prominent politicians, that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. Such a charge would be laughable if it weren’t so cynical and irresponsible. It is a lie, plain and simple.”

Whether the president’s charge is true is a separate but important issue we will take up in a moment. First is the issue of fairness. Is it inappropriate for all of our political leaders to call members of the opposing party liars on the floor of the House of Representatives? Or is there a separate standard for President Obama and the members of his party? Joe Wilson’s remark was unplanned. Our president came to Congress pleading for bipartisanship but intending to demean his opponents with the same expression. What standard are we to observe?

Dude, read the House resolution, presented below, disapproving the actions of Joe Wilson. His offense was interrupting a joint session of Congress when the President of the United States was speaking at the invitation of the House and Senate.

If Wilson had interrupted the President to yell "right on, Mr. President, you speak the truth", he would still have committed a breach of decorum.

Joe Wilson's offense wasn't calling the President a bad name. It was committing a breech of decorum by interrupting a speech.

Whereas on September 9, 2009, during the joint session of Congress convened pursuant to House Concurrent Resolution 179, the President of the United States, speaking at the invitation of the House and Senate, had his remarks interrupted by the Representative from South Carolina, Mr. Wilson; and

Whereas the conduct of the Representative from South Carolina was a breach of decorum and degraded the proceedings of the joint session, to the discredit of the House: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That the House of Representatives disapproves of the behavior of the Representative from South Carolina, Mr. Wilson, during the joint session of Congress held on September 9, 2009.​
 

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