Thoughts on Communism/Socialism in General

KD00LS

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I don't consider myself to be a political advocate for either side, I don't know enough. I like to study (beginning to) the fundamentals of proposed ideas for societies, i.e. Plato, Locke, etc., but I haven't yet delved into the current political situations as much as I should have. It seems very ostracized and overcomplicated due to scandals and what not, regardless what side has them. So my thoughts are on the general idea.

To me, Communism/Socialism etc. don't make much sense in context to human nature.

1. I feel as if, especially in light of political situations, that it is unnatural. In its purest form it incorporates univeral sharing and equilibrium, which I feel due to natural tendencies of human, it couldn't hold water. Greed in the sense that it isn't necessarily 'evil', it just denotes the survival of the fittest mentality.

2. Marx defined the utopian communist state as the "end of history," in one way or the other. I don't understand how someone could label this as a positive outlook. To me, being a history major, history is the organic progress of societies and their interactions, from micro to macro. To end history, in my opinion, would be detrimental to progress. This doesn't make sense because progressive parties were deemed leftist, which is where communism stands on the political scale, more or less a few pegs. It seems that if there were a monetary equilibrium, if doctors stood to receive the same treatment as a mechanic, there would be no ambition to progress. I feel as if no one (or a much less amount) would strive to become something in order to rise about their surroundings. We all know that putting 50% of the effort doesn't breed the same results.


I guess, in my theory at least, that such socialist and commune inspired efforts seem detrimental to society, at least in pure form, and hinder actual progress. Constructive criticism is very welcome. I only think communism could strive in a perfectly good world, which I don't think is possible due to human nature.
 
You are right – true communism is utopian thought… unachievable in this real world, in this time. It is why it has failed repeatedly (although none of the countries we think of as communists really were).

It looks at humans evolving to a point to where the mechanic is as appreciated and as vaulted as the doctor. Something that certainly will take time, and perhaps never can be achieved. It looks at achievement as something to be strived for on its own, no physical gain – such as money, just self awareness of a job well done. It believes in the inner need to continue to strive, to create something better that will improve mankind, just because it improves mankind, not because of material gain. You also all have the same amount of power within the society. If you look at it that way, it is a true democracy- everything would always be voted on. Not just by those who were interested, on those who we elect to represent us, but by all of us. We want to build a city hall - then the effort to build it is a collective effort. We may chose in our commune to allow the architects a free hand, because we know that they will do the best for mankind (us) with their designs and ideas, or we might decide that we need to vote on all aspects of the construction - another messy reason that true communism doesn't work so great.

You truly have to embrace “From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need”. Is it possible within the human condition to embrace that – for everyone? Not likely. Perhaps it is a next step in evolution. A lot of science fiction is based on that ideal.

Marx's end of history comment has to do with the end of strife, conflict, violence and war - the items that make up most of our history. How short would your history classes be KD00LS if those items were taken out? History would continue, but much like if you just studied the Renaissance, the Industrial Age, the Information Age. Without wars, without genocide, without dictators and despots, without man imposing his will on other men, history looks a lot different.

Engels and Marx saw socialism as the path to communism... Their view of communism is quite different than our current idea that communism looks like the Soviet Union or Cuba or even China. In those systems fewer and fewer people were making decisions, and those in power became more and more isolated. There wasn't any achievement for the good of all, there was achievement for the good of the few. As you said - in those cases why put out a full effort - you will never reap the rewards. In a true commune, if your farming efforts allow for improved crops each year, you get to eat better, your neighbors eat better. Who knows, because your neighbors are eating better, they now have a chance to spend more time working on their idea of a personal nuclear reactor. Those extra vegetable that they got, added additional vitamin C to their diet, allowing them to stay up late and finally work out the physics bugs in their system. Soon everyone has personal nuclear reactors, and everyone gets more free time, and lives longer because of the fewer pollutants in the air...

Sounds great - but, just doesn't work with our psyche very well. We still look at the farmer and the nuclear physicist as having very different values to society.
 
KD00LS, you have pointed out the biggest, most fundamental flaw of socialism; it's understanding of human nature. From this flaw stems most all other flaws in the socialist worldview (and most all the other worldviews derived from it).

Basically, Marx viewed human nature as something that is generally good and can be improved, or "evolved" (as directed by the state, of course) toward an idealized, communist utopia.

Even Locke held a similar view of human nature in that he was unrealistically optimistic (viewing humans as generally good). Hobbes had a much more pessimistic, but realistic view of human nature, calling it "brutish" among other things.

The Framers of this country basically took a view of human nature combining Hobbes views and biblical views to arrive at the idea that humans are generally selfish or "self-interested" and capable of both tremendous good and terrible evil. That idea leads to all the checks and balances we have as well as the idea of Federalism, among other things.

Anyway, the reason socialism (and socialist derived political philosophies) tend to end up in totalitarian circumstances is due, in large part, to that unrealistically optimistic view of human nature, IMO. The policies they promote and enact are based on that rosy view of human nature and tend to fail in the real world. Thus, the elites enacting those policies try to "compel" human nature to change to fit their theories.

The idea that human nature can "evolve" and be perfected is a very dangerous one as well as it leads to an emphasis of society as a whole at the expense of the individual. Individual liberty doesn't exist at the extreme of that view.

Human nature does not, on a societal level, EVER "evolve". As history has shown, it is a constant and any philosophy that treats it as a variable that can be manipulated inevitably fails.

the most successful political systems tend to be ones that philosophically recognize human nature for what it is, not what it "should be".
 
Shag - I have to agree with you... Human nature does not 'evolve'. I do believe societies evolve but human nature is instinctive and pretty much will never change. Societies have belief systems that help focus human nature in collective, constructive ways... but eventually it appears all societies become decrepit and can no longer function. Then they are torn apart, and replaced by new societal systems.

However, if you look at the evolution of society - I think that is what has propelled man as of late. Doesn't it seem like our huge technology advances are the result of our society evolving, not us?
 
Anyway, the reason socialism (and socialist derived political philosophies) tend to end up in totalitarian circumstances is due, in large part, to that unrealistically optimistic view of human nature, IMO. The policies they promote and enact are based on that rosy view of human nature and tend to fail in the real world. Thus, the elites enacting those policies try to "compel" human nature to change to fit their theories.

This reminds me directly of the noble lie in The Republic.
 
Shag - I have to agree with you... Human nature does not 'evolve'. I do believe societies evolve but human nature is instinctive and pretty much will never change. Societies have belief systems that help focus human nature in collective, constructive ways... but eventually it appears all societies become decrepit and can no longer function. Then they are torn apart, and replaced by new societal systems.

However, if you look at the evolution of society - I think that is what has propelled man as of late. Doesn't it seem like our huge technology advances are the result of our society evolving, not us?

Maybe technology evolving and our knowledge expanding, in turn leading to a natural "evolution" of society, if you will. But that "evolution" cannot be directed in the long term (without mostly negative results). It may be able to be influenced, but not directed.

But human nature, in and of itself, has stayed pretty much the same, especially on a societal level.
 
This reminds me directly of the noble lie in The Republic.

In it's more militant forum's (orthodox Marxism in the USSR, China, etc. and fascism in Nazi Germany and Italy) the attempt to make society conform to socialist orthodoxy comes at the point of a gun.

However, in the more modern, post-Marxist socialist philosophies I would agree, it does take the form of the "noble lie" as a means to manipulate and subtly "compel" society to fit socialist orthodoxy.
 
In it's more militant forum's (orthodox Marxism in the USSR, China, etc. and fascism in Nazi Germany and Italy) the attempt to make society conform to socialist orthodoxy comes at the point of a gun.

However, in the more modern, post-Marxist socialist philosophies I would agree, it does take the form of the "noble lie" as a means to manipulate and subtly "compel" society to fit socialist orthodoxy.

So I suppose therein lies the problem of real world communism, the noble lie is replaced by threats or fear. In true Marxist philosophy, in which it does not apply to most 3rd world attempts, is that it spawns out of capitalism. The proletariat must overcome the bourgeoise, which either conforms or is destroyed. Even on paper it has its implications of fear to compel complete control. All in all, I just don't see how socialist policies can suceed, or why anyone would want them to.
 
All in all, I just don't see how socialist policies can succeed, or why anyone would want them to.

My own personal view is that many elites subscribe to socialist dogma as a matter of faith with the "communist utopia" as a kind of their own "heaven on earth". When you start to look at it as a matter of faith among some, it starts to make sense why they would want to enact socialism even with the dismal track record of socialist programs.
 
Marx defined the utopian communist state as the "end of history," in one way or the other.
Today's right wing nut jobs define socialism to include many institutions that are overwhelmingly supported by the American people.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=25102&keywords=socialism

Here are just a few things that today's right wing nut jobbers classify as socialism:

Protecting farmers from price drops by providing crop subsidies to reduce production and establishing educational programs to teach methods of preventing soil erosion.

Creating federally insured bank deposits.

Encouraging farmers to join cooperatives to bring electricity to farms.

Regulating the stock market and restrict margin buying.

Providing Social Security pensions.

Providing unemployment insurance

Providing aid to blind, deaf, disabled, and dependent children.

Building dams to prevent flooding and produce electricity.​
 
However, if you look at the evolution of society - I think that is what has propelled man as of late. Doesn't it seem like our huge technology advances are the result of our society evolving, not us?
No, they're the result of liberty in this country and the greedy desire for profit.
 
Today's right wing nut jobs define socialism to include many institutions that are overwhelmingly supported by the American people.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=25102&keywords=socialism

Here are just a few things that today's right wing nut jobbers classify as socialism:

Protecting farmers from price drops by providing crop subsidies to reduce production and establishing educational programs to teach methods of preventing soil erosion.

Creating federally insured bank deposits.

Encouraging farmers to join cooperatives to bring electricity to farms.

Regulating the stock market and restrict margin buying.

Providing Social Security pensions.

Providing unemployment insurance

Providing aid to blind, deaf, disabled, and dependent children.

Building dams to prevent flooding and produce electricity.​

Here's a right wing nut who says Medicare, Social Security, food stamps and farm subsidies are socialism.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=4699&keywords=socialism

This nut job says a progressive tax system, as was advocated by Thomas Jefferson, is socialism: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=29075&keywords=socialism
 
Here's a right wing nut who says Medicare, Social Security, food stamps and farm subsidies are socialism.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=4699&keywords=socialism

This nut job says a progressive tax system, as was advocated by Thomas Jefferson, is socialism: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=29075&keywords=socialism

This nut job says that encouraging people to "Click it or Ticket" is socialism.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=7746&keywords=socialism
 
I could if I really wanted to.

I have heard addicts say the same thing we asked to quite their addiction.

Like them, it seems pretty clear that you are either being delusional when you claim that, or you are simply lying.
 
I learned that Thomas Jefferson favored a progressive property tax when I was in elementary school. I even read his letter to the class.
 
I learned that Thomas Jefferson favored a progressive property tax when I was in elementary school. I even read his letter to the class.

Then you can provide a quote IN CONTEXT (and provide a means for one to verify that passage) that would PROVE your claim...
 

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