U.S. defense outlays keep growing and growing

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U.S. defense outlays keep growing and growing
How much is enough? And could the money be better spent on domestic programs?
By David R. Francis | columnist
from the December 10, 2007 edition Christian Science Monitor

Washington's congressional budget planners had a new, costly curve thrown at them two weeks ago when the Bush administration formally committed the United States to a long-term military presence in Iraq to protect the government in Baghdad from internal coup plots and foreign enemies. US Defense Secretary Robert Gates launched talks in Iraq last Wednesday.

Already there is speculation that it may involve 50,000 American troops in one or more permanent bases in Iraq.

If so, it would cost $7 billion to $10 billion a year, according to a "back of the envelope" calculation by Gordon Adams, a military expert and international relations professor at American University in Washington.

That's not an extraordinary amount when compared with total American defense spending of about $750 billion for fiscal year 2008 (which began Oct. 1), a sum calculated by Professor Adams. That larger dollar figure, however, exceeds the defense spending of all other nations in the world – combined.

For fiscal 2008, President Bush has asked for $196 billion for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan alone. Such outlays make it "much more difficult" to provide funds for programs aimed primarily at helping American civilians, says Stan Collender, a Washington budget expert with Corvis Communications.

Right now, many Washington budget-watchers see the bickering between a Democratic majority in Congress and a Republican White House over spending bills as more of a political squabble than a fight over the merits of the outlays. Democrats are trying to enlarge domestic programs, telling voters they have a heart. Republicans are attempting to prove they are fiscally responsible and properly tough. "It's macho politics," says Mr. Collender.

The latest tussle concerns a fiscal 2008 appropriations bill for three departments: Education, Labor, and Health and Human Services. The difference between Congress and the White House on this is $21 billion, figures the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (CBPP), a Washington think tank. That's about 5 percent of all domestic appropriations, 1.8 percent of all federal discretionary spending ($1.14 trillion, a sum that includes defense spending), and far less than 1 percent of the $2.9 trillion total budget proposed by Mr. Bush – an amount that includes spending on Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and unemployment insurance.

So far, Collender says, the White House shows no signs of willingness to compromise with the Democrats on the spending bill. Rather, it is signaling its intention to veto the measure.

In the first six years of the Bush presidency, when Republicans controlled Congress, the president didn't veto a single appropriations bill. Now he is wielding that constitutional weapon repeatedly. Collender, whose writings suggest a Democratic sympathy, comments: "To say he is being disingenuous is giving him too much credit."

Bush is blaming Congress for the budget impasse. "Americans could be forgiven for thinking that Santa will have slipped down their chimney on Christmas Eve before Congress finishes its work," he told the press last week.

Collender suspects that no complete budget deal for fiscal 2008 will be reached. So Congress will need to pass a "continuing resolution" for unresolved appropriations bills, using past spending levels as their base. Further, he forecasts that the Bush 2009 fiscal budget, due to be sent to Capitol Hill by Feb. 4, will be extremely tight. And in an election year, the highly partisan politics of the budget debate will be "that much more intense because every vote will be a potential campaign issue."

Perhaps half seriously, he suggests that Congress just pass a continuing resolution for fiscal year 2009 early next year "and get it over with."

There are other budget issues ahead that concern millions of taxpayers. For instance, a $51 billion patch for the alternative minimum tax has passed the House to relieve 25 million prosperous but middle-income Americans from an unwelcome hike in their income tax.

That House measure includes a boost in taxes on the rich to offset the revenue loss. The Senate, however, passed a similar patch Dec. 6, but without any provision for new revenues. The speculation in Washington is that the patch bill will eventually go to the White House without any offset, thereby adding to the federal deficit.

The $51 billion patch, complains Richard Kogan, a CBPP economist, is equivalent to the Bush tax breaks for millionaires.

Another spending issue is earmarks. These are provisions slipped into spending bills that politically benefit individual members of Congress, but often are seen as wasteful. Bush uses these as one reason for vetoing spending bills. But earmarks are down in number and cost by about one-third from fiscal 2007.

The elephant in the budget remains military spending. Adams sees its level today as unnecessarily high. It's the same after taking account of inflation as during the cold war. Yet, he holds, "The US has never been as secure as we are today. What is the existential threat to the US today?" Not the Soviet missile threat. China has only 26 intercontinental missiles. Iran doesn't threaten the existence of the US. The terrorist threat is greatly exaggerated, he says.

"Yet we are scared to death," he says. "Thank you, George Bush."

___________________________________________________________

All this while another 5 TRILLION dollars is expected to leave America in the next 5 years. This is total insanity!

___________________________________________________________

This is too true to be very funny

The next time you hear a politician use the

word 'billion' in a casual manner, think about

whether you want the 'politicians' spending

YOUR tax money.

A billion is a difficult number to comprehend,

but one advertising agency did a good job of

putting that figure into some perspective in

one of its releases.





A. A billion seconds ago it was 1959.



B. A billion minutes ago Jesus was alive.



C. A billion hours ago our ancestors were

living in the Stone Age.



D. A billion days ago no-one walked on the earth on two feet.



E. A billion dollars ago was only 8 hours and

20 minutes, at the rate our government is spending it.



While this thought is still fresh in our brain, let's take a look at New Orleans It's amazing what you can learn with some simple division



Louisiana Senator, Mary Landrieu (D), is presently asking the Congress for $250 BILLION to rebuild New Orleans . Interesting number, what does it mean?



A. Well, if you are one of 484,674 residents of

New Orleans (every man, woman, child), you

each get $516,528.



B. Or, if you have one of the 188,251 homes in

New Orleans , your home gets $1,329,787.



C. Or, if you are a family of four, your family

gets $2,066,012.



Washington, D.C .. HELLO!!! ... Are all your calculators broken??


Accounts Receivable Tax

Building Permit Tax

CDL License Tax

Cigarette Tax

Corporate Income Tax

Dog License Tax

Federal Income Tax

Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)

Fishing License Tax

Food License Tax

Fuel Perm it Tax

Gasoline Tax

Hunting License Tax

Inheritance Tax

Inventory Tax

IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax),

IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax),

Liquor Tax,

Luxury Tax,

Marriage License Tax,

Medicare Tax,

Property Tax,

Real Estate Tax,

Service charge taxes,

Social Security Tax,

Road Usage Tax (Truckers),

Sales Taxes,

Recreational Vehicle Tax,

School Tax,

State Income Tax,

State Unemployment Tax (SUTA),

Telephone Federal Excise Tax,

Telephone Federal Universal Service Fe e Tax,

Telephone Federal, State and Local Su rcharge Tax,

Telephone Minimum Usage Su rcharge Tax,

Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax,

Telephone State and Local Tax,

Telephone Usage Charge Tax,

Utility Tax,

Vehicle License Registration Tax,

Vehicle Sales Tax,

Watercraft Registration Tax,

Well Permit Tax,

Workers Compensation Tax.



STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?

Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago,

and our nation was the most prosperous in the world.

We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.



What happened? Can you spell 'politicians!'

America's military adventures are going to cost the country dearly in the coming years. Smart people are going to start moving their money out of US funds and foreign lenders who are bankrolling our crazy spending will pull their loans causing an eventual economic collapse.
 
Only about 4% of GDP is military spending. We need to make it about 8%. We need to strengthen and expand the military not deplete it like President Clinton did. :rolleyes:
 
You want to talk about big figures.
How about the over $5,000,000,000,000 we've spent on the ridiculous "War on Poverty."

TRILLION.

The government SHOULD spend money on Defense. That makes sense. Enough with the redistribution of wealth and failed attempts social engineering.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Presiden H.W. Bush cut spending...he stated anyone on welfare that had another kid was cut off!

I'd rather spend my Tax Dollars on National Defense than on some "Leech on Society" that thinks they are owed something!

I sure do miss "The Great Communicator"!

ronaldreaganfarewelladdaj0.jpg


"...My friends: We did it. We weren't just marking time. We made a difference. We made the city stronger. We made the city freer, and we left her in good hands. All in all, not bad, not bad at all.

And so, good-bye, God bless you, and God bless the United States of America".
 
MAC1 wants to double the 750 billion a year we spend on defence to 1.5 Trillion.
That would be 1500,000,000,000
500,000,000 or 1/2 billion spent on the war on poverty in 40 years since Lyndon Johnston is but a pittance.
We spend 1500 times more on the military in one year.
MAC1 would up that to 3000 times.
 
I don't want to give more money to welfare recipients but since we're spending 120,000 times as much money on the military the money could be better spent. Defence contractors are notorious for ripping off the government(we the people) by lowballing contracts then overrunning the costs.
If we could bring these corporate welfare bums to heel there would be a lot of money that wouldn't have to be borrowed and more could be spent on schools, roads,bridges hospitals, infrastructure, health care, nutrition programs etc.
 
Are you actually trying to put a price on defending our nation?! You have just crossed over into twilight zone, my friend. If government has any job, it is to protect our boarders, our interests, and our way of life from those who would try to destroy it. The military is the tool to do that. Governments role is not to protect people from their own stupidity. In other words, all social welfare programs, ect are icing on the cake, and excessive government waste. You obviously have no clue what the role of government is, if you arguing for cutting government spending.

"The elephant in the room is military spending"?! That may very well be the most absurd thing I have ever heard! The elephant in the room is excessive government spending on social programs, which the government has no business doing.

"Accounts Receivable Tax

Building Permit Tax

CDL License Tax

Cigarette Tax

Corporate Income Tax

Dog License Tax

Federal Income Tax

Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)

Fishing License Tax

Food License Tax

Fuel Perm it Tax

Gasoline Tax

Hunting License Tax

Inheritance Tax

Inventory Tax

IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax),

IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax),

Liquor Tax,

Luxury Tax,

Marriage License Tax,

Medicare Tax,

Property Tax,

Real Estate Tax,

Service charge taxes,

Social Security Tax,

Road Usage Tax (Truckers),

Sales Taxes,

Recreational Vehicle Tax,

School Tax,

State Income Tax,

State Unemployment Tax (SUTA),

Telephone Federal Excise Tax,

Telephone Federal Universal Service Fe e Tax,

Telephone Federal, State and Local Su rcharge Tax,

Telephone Minimum Usage Su rcharge Tax,

Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax,

Telephone State and Local Tax,

Telephone Usage Charge Tax,

Utility Tax,

Vehicle License Registration Tax,

Vehicle Sales Tax,

Watercraft Registration Tax,

Well Permit Tax,

Workers Compensation Tax.

Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago"

Yes, and the majority of those didn't exist before FDR started expanding the government to being a nanny state; funding social programs.

Let me make this simple:
MILITARY SPENDING IS NOT DISCRESIONARY SPENDING!
If anything, it is the most required spending the government has, next to basic spending for infastruture. The government should stop any and all funding of education (both college and below), do away with welfare, and generally reduce government funded programs to pre- great depression levels before ANY cut in military spending during a time of war should EVER be contemplated. It is that simple.
 
MAC1 wants to double the 750 billion a year we spend on defence to 1.5 Trillion.
That would be 1500,000,000,000
500,000,000 or 1/2 billion spent on the war on poverty in 40 years since Lyndon Johnston is but a pittance.
We spend 1500 times more on the military in one year.
MAC1 would up that to 3000 times.
Let me put it this way--We need to spend about 7-8% of GDP just to rebuild the military to where it was before President Clinton took office. The United States must have a strong military, especially in a world that is more militant than ever before with increasing threats to our national security stemming from terrorists, illegal immigration, and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. This is not the time to have a weak military. The key question is whether we are ready to meat any military challenge we may face.
 
MAC1 wants to double the 750 billion a year we spend on defence to 1.5 Trillion.
That would be 1500,000,000,000
500,000,000 or 1/2 billion spent on the war on poverty in 40 years since Lyndon Johnston is but a pittance.
We spend 1500 times more on the military in one year.
MAC1 would up that to 3000 times.

Not 500,000,000
but 5,000,000,000,000

Trillion.
Over five TRILLION dollars on this undefinable, socialist "War on Poverty."
 
Interesting Quotes on war and politics:


Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.

~Albert Einstein

Force always attracts men of low morality.

~Albert Einstein

A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny.

~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

The demands of internal growth are incomparably more important to us...than the need for any external expansion of our power.

~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn


All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.

~Alexis de Tocqueville


No protracted war can fail to endanger the freedom of a democratic country.

~Alexis de Tocqueville

The slightest acquaintance with history shows that powerful republics are the most warlike and unscrupulous of nations.

~Ambrose Bierce


Force is the weapon of the weak.

~Ammon Hennacy


Do not ever say that the desire to "do good" by force is a good motive. Neither power-lust nor stupidity are good motives.

~Ayn Rand


No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots.

~Barbara Ehrenreich


War is the unfolding of miscalculations.

~Barbara Tuchman


Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

~Benjamin Franklin


Wars are not paid for in wartime, the bill comes later.

~Benjamin Franklin


There never was a good war or a bad peace.

~Benjamin Franklin


All wars are follies, very expensive and very mischievous ones.

~Benjamin Franklin


We Americans have no commission from God to police the world.

~Benjamin Harrison


The terrorist is the one with the small bomb.

~Brendan Behan


Peace is constructed, not fought for.

~Brent Davis


After each war there is a little less democracy to save.

~Brooks Atkinson


Blind faith in your leaders or in anything will get you killed.

~Bruce Springsteen


War is not an independent phenomenon, but the continuation of politics by different means.

~Carl P. G. von Clausewitz


War in the end is always about betrayal, betrayal of the young by the old, of soldiers by politicians, and of idealists by cynics.

~Chris Hedges


After victory, you have more enemies.

~Cicero


War is never economically beneficial except for those in position to profit from war expenditures.

~Congressman Ron Paul


When the largest industry in the world is no longer War, I will accept Darwin's theory of Evolution.

~Dale S. Mugford


The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.

~David Friedman


There are a lot of people who lie and get away with it, and that's just a fact.

~Donald Rumsfeld


We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex.

~Dwight D. Eisenhower


We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security.

~Dwight D. Eisenhower


Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing.

~Dwight D. Eisenhower


A Patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.

~Ed Abbey


Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.

~Edward Everett


We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it.

~Edward R. Murrow


All the gods are dead except the god of war.

~Eldridge Cleaver


All wars eventually act as boomerangs and the victor suffers as much as the vanquished.

~Eleanor Roosevelt


We must get away from the idea that America is to be the leader of the world in everything.

~Francis John McConnell


All wars come to an end, at least temporarily. But the authority acquired by the state hangs on; political power never abdicates.

~Frank Chodorov


The evils of government are directly proportional to the tolerance of the people.

~Frank Kent


In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.

~Franklin Delano Roosevelt


Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.

~Franklin D. Roosevelt


If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one of them would remain in the army.

~Frederick the Great


Wars are the hobbies of half-informed children who have somehow come into possession of the levers of power.

~Fred Reed


Governments have never learned anything from history, or acted on principles deducted from it.

~Friedrich Hebbel, German poet and dramatist



The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

~Friedrich Nietzsche


Only the winners decide what were war crimes.

~Gary Wills


I want to scare the hell out of the rest of the world.

~General Colin Powell


It is part of the general pattern of misguided policy that our country is now geared to an arms economy which was bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and nurtured upon an incessant propaganda of fear.

~General Douglas MacArthur


Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with the cry of grave national emergency.

~General Douglas MacArthur


Our country is now geared to an arms economy which was bred in...war hysteria and nurtured upon an incessant propaganda of fear.

~General Douglas MacArthur


Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.

~General Omar N. Bradley


We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living.

~General Omar N. Bradley


War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious.

~General Smedley Butler


My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of the higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military.

~General Smedley Butler


War is fear cloaked in courage.

~General William Westmoreland


In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act.

~George Orwell


Political language ... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.

~George Orwell


Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.

~George Orwell


The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.

~George Orwell


All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.

~George Orwell


Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism.

~George Washington


Our nation is somewhat sad, but we’re angry. There’s a certain level of blood lust, but we won’t let it drive our reaction. We’re steady, clear-eyed and patient, but pretty soon we’ll have to start displaying scalps.

~George W. Bush


If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator.

~George W. Bush


If we don’t stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, we’re going to have a serious problem coming down the road.

~George W. Bush


Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is.

~George W. Bush


These people are trying to shake the will of the Iraqi citizens, and they want us to leave...I think the world would be better off if we did leave...

~George W. Bush (on Iraqi Insurgency)


What experience and history teach is this—that people and governments never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it.

~Georg W. Hegel


Emphasis on military prowess is an indication of philosophical poverty.

~Henk Middelraad



What political leaders decide, intelligence services tend to seek to justify.

~Henry Kissinger


It's not a matter of what is true that counts but a matter of what is perceived to be true.

~Henry Kissinger


The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders...tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.

~Herman Goering


Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule – and both commonly succeed, and are right.

~H.L. Mencken


During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism.

~Howard Thurman


One certain effect of war is to diminish freedom of expression.

~Howard Zinn


Paramount among the responsibilities of a free press is the duty to prevent any part of the government from deceiving the people...

~Hugo Black, Supreme Court Justice


Suspicion must always fall on those who attempt to silence their opponents.

~Ian Buckley


I love America more than any other country in the world and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually.

~James Baldwin


Freedom is whatever the president says it is, pending revision.

~James Bovard


No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

~James Madison


The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home.

~James Madison


All men having power ought to be mistrusted.

~James Madison


The loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad.

~James Madison


If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.

~James Madison


The constitution supposes, what the History of all Governments demonstrates, that the Executive is the branch of power most interested in war, and most prone to it.

~James Madison


In any war, the first casualty is common sense, and the second is free and open discussion.

~James Reston


Every man thinks god is on his side.

~Jean Anouilh
I'm afraid, based on my own experience, that fascism will come to America in the name of national security.

~Jim Garrison


The coward threatens when he is safe.

~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.

~John F. Kennedy


The basic problems facing the world today are not susceptible to a military solution.

~John F. Kennedy

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.

~Joseph Goebbels


The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding.

~Justice Louis D. Brandeis

Wars frequently begin ten years before the first shot is fired.

~K. K. V. Casey

The war on terrorism is akin to the war on drugs…unwinable, unless you kill everyone…or address the root causes.

~K. W. Ibrahim


Phony pretexts repeated often enough become real reasons. Things that...are not true become true in the public mind simply through endless repetition.

~Lenny Bloom

Where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control.

~Lord Acton

It's quite fun to fight 'em, you know. It's a hell of a hoot. It's fun to shoot some people. I'll be right up front with you, I like brawling.

~Lt. Gen. James Mattis, USMC

About the quote: Comments from 2/1/05 conference in San Diego, California. Lt. Mattis commanded troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.


The guns and the bombs, the rockets and the warships, are all symbols of human failure.

~Lyndon B. Johnson


The de facto role of the US armed forces will be to keep the world safe for our economy and open to our cultural assault.

~Major Ralph Peters, US Military


The more laws, the less justice.

~Marcus Tullius Cicero


It takes more courage to get out of a war than it does to get into one.

~Mark Couturier


Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it.

~Mark Twain


The statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is being attacked, and every man will be glad of these conscience-soothing falsities

~Mark Twain

Is it not a strange blindness on our part to teach publicly the techniques of warfare and to reward with medals those who prove to be the most adroit killers?

~Marquis de Sade


I hate those men who would send into war youth to fight and die for them; the pride and cowardice of those old men, making their wars that boys must die.

~Mary Roberts Rinehart


Politics and crime are the same thing.

~Michael Corleone (from "The Godfather: Part III")


The enormous gap between what US leaders do...and what Americans think their leaders are doing is one of the great propaganda accomplishments...

~Michael Parenti


It is in war that the State really comes into its own: swelling in power, in number, in pride, in absolute dominion over the economy and the society.

~Murray Rothbard


War is the business of barbarians.

~Napoleon Bonaparte


In the eyes of empire builders men are not men but instruments.

~Napoleon Bonaparte


A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it.

~Oscar Wilde


Preventive war is like committing suicide out of fear of death.

~Otto von Bismarck


No one has deputized America to play Wyatt Earp to the world.

~Patrick J. Buchanan


This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.

~Plato


When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and there is nothing to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader.

~Plato


Wars generally do not resolve the problems for which they are fought and therefore...prove ultimately futile.

~Pope John Paul II


There are no warlike people--just warlike leaders.

~Ralph Bunche


A man who kills on his own is a murderer. A man who kills at his government's request is a national hero.

~Ramman Kenoun


The soldier's main enemy is not the opposing soldier, but his own commander.

~Ramman Kenoun


The occupation and robbery of a nation occurs under the illusion of freeing its citizens from brutal oppression.

~Ramman Kenoun


Conflict is the criminals' paradise; it is the only time when killing is allowed, theft is tolerated, and rape is forgiven.

~Ramman Kenoun


All it takes is a single act of aggression to permanently wound a nation's reputation.

~Ramman Kenoun


The only antidote to the poison of war is the public's courage to disagree with their leader.

~Ramman Kenoun


A tyrant has succeeded in his search for absolute power when his own people fear to question his actions.

~Ramman Kenoun



Power is usurped from the people, first by implementing fear, then it is maintained by slandering as 'unpatriotic' those who refuse submission.

~Ramman Kenoun


It is frightening how the actions of a single leader can have such drastic effects on the prestige of an entire nation.

~Ramman Kenoun


War is the ultimate tool of politics.

~R. Buckminster Fuller


Washington...has become an alien city-state that rules America, and much of the rest of the world, in the way that Rome ruled the Roman Empire.

~Richard Maybury


It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so...

~Robert A. Heinlein


When American presidents prepare for foreign wars, they lie.

~Robert Higgs


Since the end of the nineteenth century, if not earlier, presidents have misled the public about their motives and their intentions in going to war.

~Robert Higgs


...History shows that ... (people) can be deflected from their natural tendencies by artful propaganda, bogus crises, or other political trickery.

~Robert Higgs


The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions.

~Robert Lynd


Never is the power of the state greater, and never are the forces of political parties of opposition less effective, than at the outbreak of war.

~Robert Michels


Criticism in time of war is essential to the maintenance of any kind of democratic government.

~Robert Taft


The maintenance of the right of criticism in the long run will do the country...more good than it will do the enemy.

~Robert Taft


There were no international terrorists in Iraq until we went in. It was we who gave the perfect conditions in which Al Qaeda could thrive.

~Robin Cook

About the quote: Cook is Britain's former foreign secretary. He resigned from the British Cabinet over the Iraq War.


The world should take notice when someone...with a fanatic mind and with powerful means, receives his marching orders from Heaven.

~Rodrigue Tremblay

About the quote: From Trembaly's "The New American Empire." Tremblay is a Professor of Economic Science at the University of Montreal


Terror is a tactic. We can not wage "war" against a tactic.

~Ron Paul


Do they think if we destroy our freedoms for the terrorists they will no longer have a reason to attack us?

~Ron Paul


No one has ever succeeded in keeping nations at war except by lies.

~Salvador de Madariaga


We say that we care about the war, but we don’t even really know what we’re fighting for.

~Scott Ritter


The biggest lesson I learned from Vietnam is not to trust [our own] government statements.

~Senator James W. Fulbright


Before the war is ended, the war party assumes the divine right to denounce and silence all opposition to war as unpatriotic and cowardly.

~Senator Robert M. La Follette


Every nation has its war party. It is not the party of democracy. It is the party of autocracy. It seeks to dominate absolutely.

~Senator Robert M. La Follette


In times of peace, the war party insists on making preparation for war. As soon as prepared for, it insists on making war.

~Senator Robert M. La Follette


If there is no sufficient reason for war, the war party will make war on one pretext, then invent another...after the war is on.

~Senator Robert M. La Follette


The first casualty when war comes is the truth.

~Sen. Hiram Johnson


The price of empire is America’s soul, and that price is too high.

~Sen. J. William Fulbright (Ark.)


We first fought...in the name of religion, then Communism, and now in the name of drugs and terrorism. Our excuses for global domination always change.

~Serj Tankian


If you live long enough, you'll see that every victory turns into a defeat.

~Simone de Beauvoir


The great error of nearly all studies of war... has been to consider war as an episode in foreign policies, when it is an act of interior politics...

~Simone Weil


Nothing doth more hurt in a state than that cunning men pass for wise.

~Sir Francis Bacon


I went into the Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I now believe that if you prepare thoroughly for war you will get it.

~Sir John Frederick Maurice


Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich.

~Sir Peter Ustinov


As for being a General, well, at the age of four with paper hats and wooden swords, we're all Generals. Only some of us never grow out of it.

~Sir Peter Ustinov


All wars are fought for money.

~Socrates

It is the merit of a general to impart good news, and to conceal the truth.

~Sophocles


When [men] go to war, what they want is to impose on their enemies the victor's will and call it peace.

~St. Augustine


One reason the United States finds itself at the edge of a foreign policy disaster is its underinformed citizenry, a key weakness in democracy.

~Stefan Halper and Jonathan Clarke


All warfare is based on deception.

~Sun Tzu

The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.

~Tacitus


When people have friends and customers in other lands, they tend to take a dim view of their government dropping bombs on them.

~Terry Liberty Parker


The Department of Defense is the behemoth...With an annual budget larger than the gross domestic product of Russia, it is an empire.

~The 9/11 Commission Report


Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official...

~Theodore Roosevelt


It is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else.

~Theodore Roosevelt


That we are to stand by the president, right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

~Theodore Roosevelt


To announce that there must be no criticism of the president...is morally treasonable to the American public.

~Theodore Roosevelt


Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.

~Theodore Roosevelt


...to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.

~Theodore Roosevelt


In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them.

~Thich Nhat Hanh


Force and fraud are in war the two cardinal virtues.

~Thomas Hobbes


I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be.

~Thomas Jefferson


The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive.

~Thomas Jefferson


The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.

~Thomas Jefferson


A coward is much more exposed to quarrels than a man of spirit.

~Thomas Jefferson


I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind.

~Thomas Jefferson


The most successful war seldom pays for its losses.

~Thomas Jefferson


Governments constantly choose between telling lies and fighting wars, with the end result always being the same. One will always lead to the other.

~Thomas Jefferson


That meddling in other people's affairs...formerly conducted by the most discreet intrigue is now openly advocated under the name of intervention.

~T.S. Eliot


Justice itself tends to be corrupted by political passion.

~T.S. Eliot


It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.

~Voltaire


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

~Voltaire


A standing army is a standing menace to liberty.

~Voltairine de Clayre


The time has come to stop beating our heads against stone walls under the illusion that we have been appointed policeman to the human race.

~Walter Lippmann


We have met the enemy and he is us.

~Walt Kelly


The cry has been that when war is declared, all opposition should be hushed. A sentiment more unworthy of a free country could hardly be propagated.

~William Ellery Channing


If you want war, nourish a doctrine. Doctrines are the most frightful tyrants to which men ever are subject...

~William Graham Sumner


The greatest crime since World War II has been US foreign policy.

~William Ramsey Clark


Never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter.

~Winston Churchill


The statesman who yields to war fever...is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events.

~Winston Churchill


War is mainly a catalogue of blunders.

~Winston Churchill
 
The idea behind a strong military IS NOT to engage in long and protracted wars, but to be able to PREVENT them. And when the war is absolutely necessary, to make the military campaign as quick as possible.
 
Well Mission Accomplished has turned into a long and protracted war with permanent military bases being built and 10 to 15 year time frames expected.
There are limits to what can be achieved by military force.
The defense department is already huge and fat.

"The Department of Defense is the behemoth...With an annual budget larger than the gross domestic product of Russia, it is an empire."

~The 9/11 Commission Report


This one quote I find most candid:

The de facto role of the US armed forces will be to keep the world safe for our economy and open to our cultural assault.

~Major Ralph Peters, US Military

Even George W Bush has admitted in a rare moment:

If we don’t stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, we’re going to have a serious problem coming down the road.

~George W. Bush

However he seems trapped in a situation he helped create and is probably glad to be leaving office in a year.

As well it is my opinion that up to 50% of the defense budget is squandered on very expensive equipment of dubious value pushed by
defense contractors onto politicians who under the guise of bringing home the bacon have never met a defense system they didn't like or think was
not nessesary.
We could certainly get a lot more value for our money than we are currently getting. The public is getting hosed by the military industrial complex which seems to be unaccountable to the taxpayer.
Was there ever a system of value that came in on time and budget?
Everything seems incredibly expensive for what it does(or doesn't do)

But boys love their toys....
 
Well Mission Accomplished has turned into a long and protracted war with permanent military bases being built and 10 to 15 year time frames expected.

There are limits to what can be achieved by military force.
The defense department is already huge and fat.
You're making individual points, but they're meaningless in total.

Yes, the efforts in the Middle East will not be achieved over night. But they were initiated with the goal of AVOIDING a larger conflict in the future.

No one says that we should seek to improve the efficiency of the military bureaucracy.





The de facto role of the US armed forces will be to keep the world safe for our economy and open to our cultural assault.

~Major Ralph Peters, US Military

You don't have the full context of the statement and you've demonstrated you don't have a deep enough understanding to fully understand this statement. But do you think the economic strength of the country IS NOT worth protecting?




As well it is my opinion that up to 50% of the defense budget is squandered on very expensive equipment of dubious value pushed by
defense contractors onto politicians who under the guise of bringing home the bacon have never met a defense system they didn't like or think was
not nessesary.
50% is clearly a number you've pulled out of your rear, but it is true that money is wasted by the government. That doesn't mean we shouldn't improve the efficiency of the military and increase it's funding and equipment to address the emerging threats and rivals in the world today.


Was there ever a system of value that came in on time and budget?
Everything seems incredibly expensive for what it does(or doesn't do)
How wonderfully hypocritical and naive. You find fault and spite the military because it is subject to the bureaucratic waste of the federal government, yet you want to expand the failed social programs and spending policies of the federal government.

Are you suddenly unaware of the huge amounts of pork-barrel and fraud that take place there? If nothing else, at least the military serves a necessary purpose.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
04SCTLS, you are really showing your ignorance here. None of the quotes you posted have any meaning, they are all taken out of context so that they can be spun. As such, they don't even warrent a counterpoint type response, because no point has been made. I have yet to see any substance from you in this thread. Just mindless claims backed up with platitudes and out of context quotes. There is no argument here because you don't present anything that is debatable; nothing but superficial claims.

You keep talking as if our establishing a base in Iraq and Afganistan and being in there in some form is a bad thing.
Prove it!
You have offered no evidence to back it up. It is something we have always done after a conflict, and it helps rebuild the country, something else we always do after we defeat someone in a conflict.

Please, gimmie some substance here.
 
I never said I wanted to expand failed social welfare programs.
I'm not for handing out more money to individuals.
I'm for more spending for schools, hospitals, roads, bridges, nuclear power, solar energy, windmills, replacing antiquated airport radar systems, the interstate highway system.
These things are not welfare other than welfare for everyone.
You're grudgingly agreeing with me that more can be done with the money spent by the government on the military as well as most everything else it funds.
I did pull the 50% figure out of the air and it may only be 20-30% but it's still substantial.
Expanding the military to your satisfaction would require a return of the draft and I don't think the american public would stand much for that.
I understand your opinions but I just don't happen to agree with them.
 
I'm for more spending for schools, hospitals, roads, bridges, nuclear power, solar energy, windmills, replacing antiquated airport radar systems, the interstate highway system.

So why don't we take that money from all the wasteful entitlement spending?

Here- I'll find the compromise.
Reduce the military waste, and there is a lot, but still increase the amount spent.

And then cut all the entitlements and wealth redistribution programs, and use that HUGE surplus (majority of the federal budget) to expand your public programs listed above... except schools- that's a state issue.

Expanding the military to your satisfaction would require a return of the draft and I don't think....
No, to the contrary. More money means fancier, modern equipment. It actually calls for fewer troops. And it would also mean for money to recruit good people from the private sector as well.
 
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NjgzMzYzY2Y1ZjAxNTg5YzAzNzY2MjMwOWYxNWM0ZTc=#more

The Problem With Pastor Mike
Foreign-policy foolishness just won't suffice.

By Peter Wehner


Former Arkansas governor and Republican presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee has written an article for Foreign Affairs magazine, the first two paragraphs of which are stunningly silly, misguided, and unfortunately for Huckabee, deeply revealing.

The two opening paragraphs read this way:


The United States, as the world's only superpower, is less vulnerable to military defeat. But it is more vulnerable to the animosity of other countries. Much like a top high school student, if it is modest about its abilities and achievements, if it is generous in helping others, it is loved. But if it attempts to dominate others, it is despised.

American foreign policy needs to change its tone and attitude, open up, and reach out. The Bush administration's arrogant bunker mentality has been counterproductive at home and abroad. My administration will recognize that the United States' main fight today does not pit us against the world but pits the world against the terrorists. At the same time, my administration will never surrender any of our sovereignty, which is why I was the first presidential candidate to oppose ratification of the Law of the Sea Treaty, which would endanger both our national security and our economic interests.

Where ought one to begin untangling this unholy mess?

Perhaps the place to begin is with his contention that America is ungenerous, which (according to Huckabee) explains the animus now directed at the United States. The fact is that the United States has sacrificed an enormous amount of blood and treasure to help other nations. Any suggestion otherwise is wrong and even offensive.

We have, for starters, liberated more than 50 million people from two of the most repressive regimes in modern history (the Taliban and the Baathist police state in Iraq). The global AIDS initiative qualifies as among the most humane and generous acts in the history of American foreign policy. We give billions in additional foreign aid, including the enormous generosity America displayed in helping Indonesia and other nations in the aftermath of the earthquake and tsunami that devastated Indonesia and other nations in December 2004.

The United States, while imperfect, ranks as perhaps the most benevolent superpower (to say nothing of its status as a benevolent nation) in human history. Unlike past empires, we are using American power and influence for great good instead of as a means of advancing oppression.

Beyond that, the belief that if we are modest and generous we will be “loved” by other nations, and that anger at America is based on our attempts to “dominate,” is both naive and foolish. Some nations (like Cuba, Syria, Iran, North Korea, and others) will oppose us because they are totalitarian states that hate our efforts to curb their ambitions and advance freedom and self-determination.

They are not the loving kind.

Other nations (like France under Jacques Chirac) will oppose us because they can’t stand the idea of a unipolar world and want to counterbalance it. And other nations (like China and Russia) will oppose our efforts to end genocide in Darfur and keep Iran from gaining nuclear weapons because of their economic interests.

Memo to Mike Huckabee: Sometimes we are despised for all the right reasons.

Ronald Reagan engendered anger from nations because he called the Soviet Union an “evil empire;” deployed Cruise and Pershing Missiles in Europe; moved ahead with the Strategic Defense Initiative; and supported the contras in Nicaragua. Millions took to the streets in Europe to oppose his defense build-up. Does Governor Huckabee believe Reagan’s actions were wrong simply because in many countries they were unpopular? Of course we would prefer to have universal support for our actions rather than encounter opposition. But does Huckabee understand that sometimes right and wise actions elicit opposition, and sometimes even intense and widespread opposition?

The popularity of the United States decreased in many Muslim nations in the aftermath of taking down the Taliban regime for its role in harboring and supporting al-Qaeda, which in turn was responsible for the worst attack on the American homeland in our history. Was that anger against America justified? Would Huckabee base his foreign-policy decisions on how our actions poll in Waziristan or Gaza under Hamas, or in madrasas throughout the Middle East? Based on his Foreign Affairs essay, it’s reasonable to believe he might.



As for his claim that the Bush administration’s “arrogant bunker mentality” has been counterproductive at home and abroad, the same point applies. Many Middle East dictatorships recoiled at the president’s decision in 2002 to sideline Yasser Arafat (who in many ways is the father of modern terrorism), and his insistence that Palestinian authorities renounce terrorism as an instrument of state policy if they ever hope to have a homeland. Was it “arrogant” to do so? Does Huckabee wish the president had done more to stand with dictators in the Middle East? Does he wish the president still abided by the ABM Treaty with Russia?

Governor Huckabee also seems ignorant about the extent of cooperation that, on a daily basis, is garnered for the war against militant Islam. Contrary to the portrait he paints, we are seeing unprecedented cooperation in tracking, arresting, and blocking funding for terrorist organizations. Is Governor Huckabee familiar with the Proliferation Security Initiative, which more than 70 nations have joined in an effort to deny terrorists, rogue states, and their supplier networks access to weapons-of-mass-destruction-related material? Is he aware that America and its allies shut down a sophisticated nuclear black market network headed by A. Q. Khan?

Does he know that NATO has taken over command of international forces in Afghanistan — the first mission in NATO’s history outside the Euro-Atlantic region? Does he know (or care) that the United States won the unanimous approval of the U.N. Security Council for Resolution 1441, which said Saddam Hussein had to comply with previous resolutions or face “serious consequences” (which all parties took to mean war)? And if the president’s policies have been so counterproductive abroad, how does he explain the rise to power of Sarkozy in France and Merkel in Germany — two nations where anti-American animus is said to run deepest?

In his Foreign Affairs essay, Huckabee writes, “After President Bush included Iran in the ‘axis of evil,’ everything went downhill fast.” Everything? Is the former governor of Arkansas at all familiar with the history of Iran since the 1979 revolution? Is he aware of Iran’s actions when it comes to its nuclear ambitions, support for terrorism, and the oppression of its own people — actions which earned it a place on the “axis of evil” list? Does Huckabee dispute that the Iranian regime is evil — or is he only upset that President Bush spoke truthful words about it? And what does he make of the fact that according to the latest National Intelligence Estimate Iran in 2003 ceased production of its nuclear weapons program — a year after the “axis of evil speech” and in the immediate aftermath of Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom?

Huckabee writes, “The Bush administration has properly said that it will not take the military option for dealing with Iran off the table. Neither will I. But if we do not put other options on the table, eventually a military strike will become the only viable one.”

Is Huckabee unaware of all the other options on the table, which Iran has so far rejected? And in arguing that we should re-establish diplomatic ties with Iran, Huckabee writes, “When one stops talking to a parent or a friend, differences cannot be resolved and relationships cannot move forward.” This echoes his opening reference to the United States being like a high-school student.

If Pastor Mike thinks that dealing with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Sayyid Ali Khamenei is akin to tension arising between high-school juniors Sally and Sue, he has a few things to learn — and the presidency is not the place for such basic on-the-job training.

The role of commander-in-chief is the most important one we look to in a president, particularly when America is at war. Governor Huckabee’s article in Foreign Affairs, while fine (if largely conventional) in some respects, is fundamentally unserious; on national security matters, he is likewise. And when the final votes are tallied in the GOP race, Mike Huckabee’s words, on these issues and others, will cost him.

— Peter Wehner, former deputy assistant to the president, is a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center.
 
You want to talk about big figures.
How about the over $5,000,000,000,000 we've spent on the ridiculous "War on Poverty."

TRILLION.

The government SHOULD spend money on Defense. That makes sense. Enough with the redistribution of wealth and failed attempts social engineering.
That figure is low, it's actually ELEVEN TRILLION. Just keeping the facts straight.
 
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NjgzMzYzY2Y1ZjAxNTg5YzAzNzY2MjMwOWYxNWM0ZTc=#more

The Problem With Pastor Mike
Foreign-policy foolishness just won't suffice.

By Peter Wehner


Former Arkansas governor and Republican presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee has written an article for Foreign Affairs magazine, the first two paragraphs of which are stunningly silly, misguided, and unfortunately for Huckabee, deeply revealing.

...

And when the final votes are tallied in the GOP race, Mike Huckabee’s words, on these issues and others, will cost him.

— Peter Wehner, former deputy assistant to the president, is a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center.


MonsterMark said:
I like Huck.
:rolleyes:
 

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