Update

[Fastbird]

Well, if anyone remembers my issues with the LS I bought in December, it may finally be coming to a close. I recieved my warranty refund check a couple of days ago, all $1650 back, every penny. That same day I called the dealership whom originally mis-diagnosed the problem as a intermintent misfire on the #3 coil (which is was doing, but the fuel pressure dropping to below 10 PSI was the real problem) and had a talk with their service manager. I just dropped the car off, the dealership is picking up the diagnostic tab, and hopefully this time they'll get things right. I weep to think how much it's going to cost to have the two fuel pumps and REM replaced, but hopefully we'll have the car back and at full operating capability this time.

Keep ya posted.

 

[2k2ls]

give em hell bro

 

[eL eS]

Well, if anyone remembers my issues with the LS I bought in December, it may finally be coming to a close. I recieved my warranty refund check a couple of days ago, all $1650 back, every penny. That same day I called the dealership whom originally mis-diagnosed the problem as a intermintent misfire on the #3 coil (which is was doing, but the fuel pressure dropping to below 10 PSI was the real problem) and had a talk with their service manager. I just dropped the car off, the dealership is picking up the diagnostic tab, and hopefully this time they'll get things right. I weep to think how much it's going to cost to have the two fuel pumps and REM replaced, but hopefully we'll have the car back and at full operating capability this time.

Keep ya posted.

You might be looking at about 1200. You should shop 5 Star for the parts. They are oem and are as cheap as you can hope to find. Just look at the ads on the right and call them. Ask for Maxx.

 

[Fastbird]

Well, just got off the phone with the jackass......I mean dealer service department. They're telling me that both valve covers are leaking and saturating the coils with oil. I ask about the fuel pressure issue, and they say that they can't get a good reading because the car is running so poorly. That's odd, because I drove it over there without issue. So she's quoting me $1325 te replace the valve cover gaskets and 7 coils. So I start asking questions:

"What EXACTLY is the car going to do when it detects a bunch of misfires??"

Her answer: It's going to run like crap and throw a SES light. Funny.....I've NEVER gotten an SES light.

"Well, when the misfires are detected, is the car going to pull fuel pressure and close down the misfiring cylinders??"

Her answer: I don't know.

I tell her that I'm having a hard time believing that they can't check my fuel pressure and that it's running sooooo poorly that they can't check it when I drove there just fine. I said, once the coils are replaced and they go to road test the car again that whoever does the road test needs to drive the car for 10-15 minutes and then just plant the gas and see what happens. She said "well that's normal for it not to accelerate all the way because there is a governor to keep the motor from overreving." WHAT?!?!? "No, it SHOULD NOT do that," I retorted. "Yes it will." Back and forth. Finally I say "look, I know people with LS's and thunderbirds (same setup) and NONE of them have this issue if they plant the gas. The car runs up to the shift point, shifts, and runs up again." this next comment she made is great:

"Well then they're the ones we've been seeing in here with all the problems."

Something just doesn't seem right because BOTH valve covers were replaced (updated to newer style) along with the gaskets two days prior to picking up the car from the selling dealer. And now I'm being told that both are leaking, even though when they had the car in early january neither were leaking, and the car has only been driven about 200 miles since then. Something's odd there. I may just go down to the dealership first thing in the morning and see what the deal is in person. Have them show me the proof.

And it gets better. I looked around the net today for some NJ Used Car lemon law details, and found something very interesting:

56:8-69. Written Warranty Requires; minimum durations

3. It shall be an unlawful practice for a dealer to sell a used motor vehicle to a consumer without giving the consumer a written warranty which shall at least have the following minimun durations:

A......
B......
C. If the used motor vehicle has 60,000 miles or more, the warranty shall be, at a minimum, 30 days or 1,000 miles, whichever comes first, except that a consumer may waive his right to a warranty as provided under section 7 of this act.

56:8-73. Waiver of dealer's obligation to provide warranty

7. Notwithstanding any provision of this act to the contrary, a consumer, as a result of a price negotiation for the purchase of a used motor vehicle with over 60,000 miles, may elect to waive the dealer's obligation to provide a warranty on the used motor vehicle. The waiver shall be in writing and separately stated in the agreement of retail sale or in an attachment thereto and separately signed by the consumer. The waiver shall state the dealer's obligation to provide a warranty on used motor vehicles offered for sale, as set forthin sections 3 and 4 of this act. The waiver shall indicate that the consumer, having negotiated the purchase price of the used motor vehicle and obtained a price adjustment, is electing to waie the dealer's obligation to provide a warranty on the used motor vehicle and is buying the used motor vehicle "as is."

56:8-74. Warranty given as a matter of low

8. If a dealer fails to give a written warranty required by this act, the dealer nevertheless shall be deemed to have given the warranty as a matter of low, unless a waiver has been signed by the consumer in accordance with section 7 of this act.

Sooooo.......

What I'm seeing is that I was supposed to receive notification of a law mandated 30 day 1000 mile warranty, which I was not. The issues with the car all sprouted within the first month/1000 miles, but that ended on January 17th.

Would I be out on a limb to go back to the selling dealer with this documentation and say: "Hey, you owe me money for repair expenses for problems incurred within this warranty perior, to include the current repair expenses."

If this were to go to court, do you think I would have a leg to stand on??

 

[eL eS]

you should check into small claims court precedures. See if they are allowed to bring a lawyer. In Florida they can't and the person named as defendant has to be the one to appear in court. If they fail to show it defaults to you. The next part would be collecting the money.

I would find out that info first then handle the problems with the dealer one on one. If the dealer doesn't want to play cards go file without saying a word. Document everything and if you can record your conversation but let the dealer know the conversation is being recorded. If you can't record have someone sit on the phone with you as a witness or if you handle it in person at the lot take a witness. Don't loose your cool, be preofessional all the way through. Kill em with kindness as they say.

I would take your LS to another dealer that woman is clueless. The fuel pump pressure can be checked with bad coils. Heck I am sure it can be checked even if the engine wouldnt fire. The thing is is to get a good drive time test with pressure gauges taped to the windshield; it is the only way to get realtime readings from the system.

 

[Fastbird]

Yeah, I'm thinking small claims court, but here's my current plan of action:

Show up unannounced tomorrow morning @ 0730 at the dealership where the car currently it. Have them show me PROOF of leaking valve covers, saturated coils, and piss poor running to the point where they can't get a good fuel pressure reading. My pressure gauge will be coming along.

Take a tech out with the pressure gauge on the car if at all possible. Most likely that won't happen, but either way, I'm taking the car home myself without them working on it.

Try to get in to the other lincoln dealership about 1/2 hour away. The selling dealership (private used car dealer) knows a mechanic at this one, and he guaranteed me that I'll get set straight.

Talk to the selling dealer and show him this stuff about the warranty.

I've got proof of the first occurrence on 30 December - 7 January at about 500 miles past purchase mileage, and proof of car when it stopped being driven by the emergency tow I had done on the 13th of January. I'm hoping that's enough for me to stand on if this goes to court.

 

[eL eS]

Sounds like a good place. Just kill em with kindness and take a witness if you can. Having someone to back your side up could help you a lot in court if it gets that far.

 

[Fastbird]

The only thing that I think is going to hurt me is that buried in those legal statutes is the verbage that "it's important that you get any defects fixed immediately." However, I may still have a leg considering that I did not have the money to get the vehicle fixed until the warranty refund check arrived, which was two days ago.

 

[eL eS]

do you have documentation of the defects from a 3rd party that predates the expiration of the limited warranty?

 

[SurfjaxLS]

I haven't brought my car to the dealership for repairs since the third time the car was brought in for a rough shift into 5th, 40-50 mph. Went to pepboys for a tune up, and they diagnosed the leaky valve covers. Then took it to a local shop that one of my dad's friends uses and got the gaskets replaced.

I've also fixed both rear windows myself, only stopping at the dealership for parts. They even screwed up the parts the first time I went.

Bottom line, dealerships suck ass for repairs unless under warranty, and are full of incompetent people.

 

[Fastbird]

Unfortunately, I have no third party diagnosis prior to the 30 day expiration. It's going to go to the dealership in Maple Shade, and provided they don't find a fuel system issue, will be getting fixed by my hand. My back surgery went good (Feb 18th) and I've already been working on my trans Am, so I should be able to tackle some coils.

I really don't mind the car being broken, that's a fact of life. I absolutely HATE dealing with ford dealerships though. I've watched them put some friends of mine through the ringers before, and can't stand the places. But I'm kind of stuck right now, and trying to UN-stick myself.

 

[eL eS]

well if you need any technical help you have several hundred sypathetic friends here at LvC. If I can be of any assistance just say the word.

 

[Fastbird]

eL eS, I appreciate it. I still have all those fuel system and REM drawing and exploded views you sent me. If only the weather would let up some I'd probably be content to get to work on the car. Sadly, I only have a 1 car garage and it's perpetually occupied by my "race" Trans am.

 

[eL eS]

np fastbird; I'd rather we not be having these conversations but since we are I might as well try to be productive.

I know your pain. we have a 2 car and my wife is very stingy with her share of it. I did my RH VC gasket a week ago and it was about 45 outside. I was in the garage but had the door up. The RH took a long time becasue of all the BS I had to remove.

I did the LH today in about 1 hour and that was disassembly and reassembly. The definitely needed it. The new plugs ahve restored some lost HP.

All I have to ferret out now is this transient low idle issue that occurs when I am stpped at traffic lights. It dips low and I can feel some moderate vibration.

 

[Fastbird]

One step forward, two steps back.

Well, after getting in and talking with the service manager and a Tech at the dealership, I accomplished some stuff:

The tech informed me that he had JUST run across another LS with the same issue, and it was indeed the coils. The misfiring coils were incredibly leaking voltage and sucking it from the fuel system, causing the pressure drop. THAT was lamens terms, but they gave me the in-depth and technical answer I needed.

I also had a chat with the service manager about the combative nature of the Lincoln service advisor and how she was completely unfounded in telling me that the car is supposed to do what it was when you plant the gas, and that other people who do that whom I know are the ones they're seeing in with problems all the time. He was surprised and promised to have a chat with her.

So........

We had coils #5 and #8 replaced. I just wasn't comfortable spending $1325 to replace 7 coils and then possibly get told that the fuel pumps are shot. I don't have that kind of money with a wedding showing up. So, later that same day I picked up the car, and proceeded to rape the living p*ss out of it for a solid 1/2 hour after picking it up. No problems. cool!!!

But of course, my luck being what it is (I had my Trans Am on the dyno on Saturday and it proceeded to rip the power steering pump bolts right out of the accessory bracket, defeated me yet again), we were driving last night and I did a moderate acceleration at about 45-60 with close to full throttle, and of course, felt it hesitate and watched the tach bounce around, and yup, it proceeded to perform a lighter version of the same old symptom. Seems that if you have a couple coils replaced the older ones don't like it and decide to go immediately thereafter.

So now I'm on the hunt for 5 more coils to replace. I checked out www.fordpartscheap.com, and my god did the prices on them rise. They're $100 over there now!!!!! Where's the hookup, and while I'm at it, what kind of plugs do you guys recommend????

 

[eL eS]

Well, after getting in and talking with the service manager and a Tech at the dealership, I accomplished some stuff:

The tech informed me that he had JUST run across another LS with the same issue, and it was indeed the coils. The misfiring coils were incredibly leaking voltage and sucking it from the fuel system, causing the pressure drop. THAT was lamens terms, but they gave me the in-depth and technical answer I needed.

I also had a chat with the service manager about the combative nature of the Lincoln service advisor and how she was completely unfounded in telling me that the car is supposed to do what it was when you plant the gas, and that other people who do that whom I know are the ones they're seeing in with problems all the time. He was surprised and promised to have a chat with her.

So........

We had coils #5 and #8 replaced. I just wasn't comfortable spending $1325 to replace 7 coils and then possibly get told that the fuel pumps are shot. I don't have that kind of money with a wedding showing up. So, later that same day I picked up the car, and proceeded to rape the living p*ss out of it for a solid 1/2 hour after picking it up. No problems. cool!!!

But of course, my luck being what it is (I had my Trans Am on the dyno on Saturday and it proceeded to rip the power steering pump bolts right out of the accessory bracket, defeated me yet again), we were driving last night and I did a moderate acceleration at about 45-60 with close to full throttle, and of course, felt it hesitate and watched the tach bounce around, and yup, it proceeded to perform a lighter version of the same old symptom. Seems that if you have a couple coils replaced the older ones don't like it and decide to go immediately thereafter.

So now I'm on the hunt for 5 more coils to replace. I checked out www.fordpartscheap.com, and my god did the prices on them rise. They're $100 over there now!!!!! Where's the hookup, and while I'm at it, what kind of plugs do you guys recommend????

glad to hear you met with some success so you know there is some hope. Hey check with Maxx a Five Star Ford you can find the contact info in my signature below. They take very good care of the LvCers.

I don't know how much I would put in the idea that when new coils are introduced the others don't like it. It could be that the power is more consistent in the cylinders with the new ones.

Plugs could be fouled; did they replace them? Did they repair the VC gaskets? You can do the job yourself if you have the time and some basic handtools. It isn't the easiest job but it is something a DIYer can accomplish.

Hey call the Ford customer service ans ask them if they have a record of the PCM being reflashed you might need to have it upgraded to the more recent code.

I forget who originally posted this information but do give Ford a call.
1-800-392-3673

press 6 for Lincoln vehicles

once you've done that, press 2 for other info

you'll have to enter your 10 digit phone#

Then press 2 for all other info.

then hold tight & someone will be on the line shortly


There are plenty of folks onboard that have done this already and can provide you with the proper documentation to get the coils installed. I just did my V6 and only replaced 3 of the coils and I can tell that at least 1 of the remaining 3 is bad. Fortuneately those three are easy to get to so I am going to buy a single coil and try to find the bad spot. I have resigned myself to accepting that I will have to buy three more to satisfy this beast.

 

[Fastbird]

Allrighty, I just got done with Maxx and upgraded to gold to take advantage of the discount.

Funny thing. I went to high school in Scottsdale and thought 5 Star Ford sounded familiar. I used to drive by there all the time.

Now the only question is, do I need anything special like gaskets or o-rings or anything to replace the coils, or just my trusty tool set??

What's a recommended plug for the LS???? Might as well change those too.

 

[eL eS]

Wow small world huh! I'd hate to have to paint it though. If you are only going to do the plugs and coils you shouldn't have to do any gasket work. I bought the Denso Iridium plugs and have been happy with them so far but the general rule is plugs do not grant extra HP they only have the potential to restore lost HP. So if you replace them with cheapos frequently you might get the same results as buying high dollar plugs infrequently.

Plug recommendations are all over the board so you might have to make a command decision there.

If you have oil on your plugs you will want to do a gaket job on your LS and Maxx can hook you up with all the right part numbers with that. I have some how to stuff if you need it.

 

[Fastbird]

Wow small world huh! I'd hate to have to paint it though. If you are only going to do the plugs and coils you shouldn't have to do any gasket work. I bought the Denso Iridium plugs and have been happy with them so far but the general rule is plugs do not grant extra HP they only have the potential to restore lost HP. So if you replace them with cheapos frequently you might get the same results as buying high dollar plugs infrequently.

Plug recommendations are all over the board so you might have to make a command decision there.

If you have oil on your plugs you will want to do a gaket job on your LS and Maxx can hook you up with all the right part numbers with that. I have some how to stuff if you need it.

The dealership just replaced both valve covers, so I'm set there. I just need a little "how to" on the coil packs for quality of works sake.

I'm probably going to look into NGK plugs since I've had good luck with those on my trans am's.

Thanks again man!!

 

[eL eS]

The dealership just replaced both valve covers, so I'm set there. I just need a little "how to" on the coil packs for quality of works sake.

I'm probably going to look into NGK plugs since I've had good luck with those on my trans am's.

Thanks again man!!

not certai if I have your email addy so if you PM me with it I can send you some info.

 

[lsbit]

I'm probably going to look into NGK plugs since I've had good luck with those on my trans am's.

Thanks again man!!

I mentioned on another post that the Motorcraft plugs that were in my LS said NGK on them. I guess they are made by NGK.