We could learn a lesson in warfighting from Israel

[fossten]

It's interesting, the parallels between the war the Israelis are fighting and the war the US is fighting. In fact, it's the same thing - a war against terror.

Yet the United States is fighting the war in a different and less effective manner.

Israel had given ground due to UN and US pressures, allowing Lebanon and Palestinians to have some Gaza ground. Big mistake, but they tried. They got rewarded for this by having soldiers kidnapped by Hamas and Hezbollah. Now they have changed tactics.

Israel is pushing hard into Gaza and Lebanon, wiping out terrorists and threatening Iran and Syria. It is doubtless that many Americans like me are publicly or privately cheering their effort. They have captured over one thousand Palestinians since the first week of the conflict and have no intention of giving them back. First Hamas said, give them back or else. Then they said we'll give you back your soldier for 1000 prisoners. Then they said okay, just a few hundred then. Each time Israel said screw you, we're not negotiating with terrorists. How about you losers give us back our guy and then we'll see.

How can you not applaud their tough stance against oppression? How can you not cheer when another jet flies over and bombs a building? Does anybody remember the Six Day War? Israel beat the crap out of three countries in six days. Remember that? Anybody doubt that Israel will get what she wants? If we can just STAY OUT OF IT, this might end up pretty peaceful.

The media is doing its part, leaving out Israeli civilian casualties while maximizing coverage of Palestinian civilian casualties. Do we expect anything less? The MSM has a love affair with terrorists just like they did with the Soviets.

Meanwhile, back in the home of the not-so-brave, thanks to intense pressures from radical antiwar activists and Supreme Court activists and MSM demagoguing, Bush has decided to give Geneva Convention rights to non-uniformed, cowardly killers of women and children. We are trying to appease Iran and North Korea, who are both taking advantage of our apparent weakness.

It's time for war, and it's time for cowboy diplomacy. Another 9/11 is just around the corner unless we take a page out of the book of Israel.

 

[RRocket]

Bush has decided to give Geneva Convention rights to cowardly killers of women and children.

It's funny you mention that. Today, we got word that Israel had killed nearly an entire family of Canadians vacationing in Lebanon. There were killed in an aerial bombing of a village in Southern Lebanon. 4 children under the age of 8 were among the dead. Prior to this, the family had been in contact with the Canadian consulate and family members here in Canada. They couldn't leave Lebanon since Israel bombed the civilian Beirut International Airport...a violation of the Geneva Conventions and international law. They responded with a terrorist act of their own! Currently, there are 40,000 Canadians in Lebanon. A co-worker I am close with was also in Lebanon on holidays..I haven't heard from him yet, and I'm hopeful he makes it back OK. To be clear, the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah are criminal and terrorist in nature. But when Israel responds in the same fashion, are we supposed to support them and have sympathy for them?

To put it into perspective, when 9/11 happened, the US responded by going after those directly responsible. The support for the US and the president was immediate and overwhelming. Even I had no qualms about what Bush and the US was trying to do. However, do you think for a moment that if Bush started bombing civilian targets without regard there would have been this support? Not at all. And this is what Israel is doing. And those that want to get away from the fighting cannot, since Israel have targeted civilian infrastructure (bridges, airports, etc..) Again..violation of the Geneva Conventions. I am definitely for Israel going after those responsible for the terrorist acts...namely Hamas and Hezbollah. However, it seems that Israel is indiscriminate in their attacks, and I just can't support that, and neither should the US. You guys, not Israel, did it the right way.......

 

[fossten]

"But when Israel responds in the same fashion, are we supposed to support them and have sympathy for them?"

Yes. Israel is justified to do whatever military action it takes to get their people back and shut down Hezbollah, which is indiscriminately firing missiles into Israel's civilian district.

Actually, although it's unfortunate what happened to the Canadians, it's actually quite clear that Israel is being as careful as they can to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties. That is a consensus on the news. It's impossible to prevent civilian losses with 100% certainty when you're doing airstrikes. It's not like Israel has targeted civilians or that these deaths are a result of ground raids. I know nobody believes that.

Israel is NOT indiscriminately attacking civilians. They are trying to isolate Hezbollah, which is being assisted by the Lebanese government. They are also trying to prevent any incursions by Syria, hence the bombing of highways and the airport.

Don't presume to understand military tactics here. And show me where it says in the Geneva convention that you can't bomb bridges.

 

[MonsterMark]

And Bill Clinton would show us how to do it if he were President today....

snippet from back in 1992
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Khalid Hasan


WASHINGTON: Former US President Bill Clinton who many Arab thoughts was more even-handed on the Palestine question than his predecessors shocked many when he asserted in Toronto last week that had Israel been attacked by Iraq or Iran during his presidency, he would have been ready to “grab a rifle, get in a ditch and fight and die.”

“The Israelis know that if the Iraqi or the Iranian army came across the Jordan River, I would personally grab a rifle, get in a ditch, and fight and die,” Clinton told the crowd at a fund-raising event for a Toronto Jewish charity Monday.

 

[formerknown]

The Israelis know that if the Iraqi or the Iranian army came across the Jordan River, I would personally grab a rifle, get in a ditch, and fight and die,

Yet he lied and refused to fight for America during the Vietnam conflict. What an ass

 

[Calabrio]

It's impossible to prevent civilian casualties when you're dealing with an enemy, who doesn't wear a uniform, and insists upon hiding weapons and launch from behind the skirts of women and children.

Any deaths as a result are the fault of the Hezbolah, not Israel.

 

[RRocket]

"But when Israel responds in the same fashion, are we supposed to support them and have sympathy for them?"

Yes. Israel is justified to do whatever military action it takes to get their people back and shut down Hezbollah

I disagree. I don't think the military is justified in doing ANYTHING possible, especially when that means putting the lives of civilians in peril. As I said...when the US went to Afghanistan they did it correctly. Certainly some Taliban fighters hid in civilian areas, and the US could have flattened every single town, house or hut. But it would not have been correct to do so, which is why the US had such support. As I said, I was a supporter of that mission. But compare the missions to what Israel is doing, and I don't agree. If Israel REALLY wanted to prevent civilian casualties they should have left the airport open so people who wanted to leave COULD leave. They could have left roads/bridges intact for people who WANTED to leave. But without these, the only way out is on foot. Think about this for a minute..imagine in a time of war in the US you're only way out is on foot...how far could you SAFELY get on foot?? I really don't think Israel is doing enough to prevent casualties. They've answered terrorism with terrorism, and I'm not on board with that. They've killed more Canadians than the terrorist have...and more civilians too...

 

[Calabrio]

They've killed more Canadians than the terrorist have...and more civilians too...

That's because Canada is irrelelvant in the world.

You're completely misrepresenting the manner in which Israel is staging this defensive war. And you also clearly don't understand how war has to be fought.

The Airport HAD TO BE disabled. Iran and Syria were transporting WEAPONS and supplies through that airport. By cutting off the airports and blockading the water Israel was able to greatly reduce the number of Iranian missiles entering the country that would later be used to blindly fire into civil areas of Israel.

You are totally wrong.

 

[RRocket]

I served in the military, so I'm aware of what needs to be done. However, by destroying the airport (illegally) they've cut off a vital way for civilians to flee. Ditto with the destruction of bridges and roads. Just by doing these 2 actions, Israel has proved it doesn't really want to minimize civilian casulaties. I agree Israel must defend itself...but by resorting to terrorism they are no better than Hamas...

 

[formerknown]

However, by destroying the airport (illegally) they've cut off a vital way for civilians to flee. Ditto with the destruction of bridges and roads.

Perhaps they don't want Hamas, Hezbollah, or Al-Queda fleeing with them...

 

[Barwick]

It's funny you mention that. Today, we got word that Israel had killed nearly an entire family of Canadians vacationing in Lebanon. There were killed in an aerial bombing of a village in Southern Lebanon. 4 children under the age of 8 were among the dead. Prior to this, the family had been in contact with the Canadian consulate and family members here in Canada. They couldn't leave Lebanon since Israel bombed the civilian Beirut International Airport...a violation of the Geneva Conventions and international law. They responded with a terrorist act of their own! Currently, there are 40,000 Canadians in Lebanon. A co-worker I am close with was also in Lebanon on holidays..I haven't heard from him yet, and I'm hopeful he makes it back OK. To be clear, the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah are criminal and terrorist in nature. But when Israel responds in the same fashion, are we supposed to support them and have sympathy for them?

To put it into perspective, when 9/11 happened, the US responded by going after those directly responsible. The support for the US and the president was immediate and overwhelming. Even I had no qualms about what Bush and the US was trying to do. However, do you think for a moment that if Bush started bombing civilian targets without regard there would have been this support? Not at all. And this is what Israel is doing. And those that want to get away from the fighting cannot, since Israel have targeted civilian infrastructure (bridges, airports, etc..) Again..violation of the Geneva Conventions. I am definitely for Israel going after those responsible for the terrorist acts...namely Hamas and Hezbollah. However, it seems that Israel is indiscriminate in their attacks, and I just can't support that, and neither should the US. You guys, not Israel, did it the right way.......

Bullcrap, they couldn't get out because the airport was bombed? There's other freaking airports, there's cars, there's boats, and last time I checked, most humans also have the backup of "two feet".

Israel rightfully bombed an airport because it was being used as a source of aid to terrorist organizations that were KILLING ISRAELI CITIZENS. I mean, if 5 civilians are purposely standing in front of a machine gun nest that's slaughtering your citizens, and you can't get a clear shot on the gunner without killing one of the civilians (who's willingly taking part), that is in violation of "letter of the law" of the Geneva Conventions, but is wholly the right thing to do.

Heck, imagine some Canadian group was lobbing rockets across the river into Detroit from Windsor, and the Canadian government hasn't done anything about them for decades, despite US demands. Do you think we'd be so restrained as Israel has been?

 

[fossten]

I am definitely for Israel going after those responsible for the terrorist acts...namely Hamas and Hezbollah. However, it seems that Israel is indiscriminate in their attacks, and I just can't support that, and neither should the US. You guys, not Israel, did it the right way.......

I really don't think Israel is doing enough to prevent casualties. They've answered terrorism with terrorism, and I'm not on board with that. They've killed more Canadians than the terrorist have...and more civilians too...

You couldn't be more incorrect. Why aren't you saying, 'Hezbollah isn't doing enough to prevent civilian casualties'? Where's your outrage for the real bad guys? All you are doing is bashing Israel. Clearly you must be anti-Jew just like the rest of the world. I don't see Canada doing anything to prevent casualties. Yet you want to criticize.

I have news for you: Hezbollah doesn't wear uniforms. They don't have big signs saying, "HEZBOLLAH MISSILE PLATFORM" or "HEZBOLLAH TERRORISTS HERE." They hide behind Lebanese civilians so they can fire upon Israeli civilians with impunity. Then they can win in the court of public opinion because the only way to kill them is to shoot at them while they're hiding behind civilians.

Don't give me that Jack Murtha "I'm former military so I'm always right" garbage. I'm former military intelligence, and I know more about the enemy than you do. You don't know the first thing about fighting terrorism, and I'm quite certain you've never fought against terrorists. So leave that crap at home. Terrorists don't fight like armies. They don't fight on battle lines or fronts. They are cowards who prey on women and children using car bombs and suicide jackets. Terrorists don't treat prisoners with Geneva Convention privileges. They torture and behead them. They aren't under GC anyway. Terrorists don't fight with any code or honor, and they don't negotiate. The only way to defeat them is to kill or capture them. The only way to prevent terrorists from escaping is to eliminate civilian travel opportunities.

Yes it's unfortunate that civilians are being used this way, but make no mistake, ISRAEL isn't doing this. Hezbollah is. It's time you recognized who the real enemy is.

 

[fossten]

From the atlasshrugs blog:

 

[Calabrio]

 

[TheDude]

I disagree. I don't think the military is justified in doing ANYTHING possible, especially when that means putting the lives of civilians in peril. As I said...when the US went to Afghanistan they did it correctly. Certainly some Taliban fighters hid in civilian areas, and the US could have flattened every single town, house or hut. But it would not have been correct to do so, which is why the US had such support. As I said, I was a supporter of that mission. But compare the missions to what Israel is doing, and I don't agree. If Israel REALLY wanted to prevent civilian casualties they should have left the airport open so people who wanted to leave COULD leave. They could have left roads/bridges intact for people who WANTED to leave. But without these, the only way out is on foot. Think about this for a minute..imagine in a time of war in the US you're only way out is on foot...how far could you SAFELY get on foot?? I really don't think Israel is doing enough to prevent casualties. They've answered terrorism with terrorism, and I'm not on board with that. They've killed more Canadians than the terrorist have...and more civilians too...

I'm curious, why aren't you more upset with Hezbollah/Lebanon for the loss of the Canadians and how would you handle it if you were Israel? Because, If my neighbor (#1) was firing indiscriminately into my house from another neighbors (#2) house and neighbor #2 wasn't doing anything to prevent #1 from firing; I would have absolutely no problem Molotov cocktailing the entire house to the ground with neighbor #1, neighbor #2 and his family in it. I'm not for mass destruction or genocide, but I have the responsibility to protect my family.