why cant somebody find a way to use a clutch fan for ls ?

[lesjr68]

I have found a lot of great info on this site. I am currently using a electric fan from a grand marquis but I know it draws way to many amps. and I know I should use the flex a lite 183. but I bet someone could find a way to use a clutch fan on a pulley.

 

[1LoudLS]

so you want to try to redesign the belt routing and add a pulley, have to get a custom belt, and then hope you can get something to control when the clutch engages?

why spend all the time trying to figure out how to use a old ass technology on such a new car?

it doesn't make sense when you can either just repair the hydraulic system or replace it with a nice simple and thin electric fan...





maybe I'm missing something here but IF the fan was controlled by a simple pulley and an on/off clutch, then wouldn't its rotational speed be directly tied to the motors RPM?

so then when sitting in traffic with no speed forced air flow going in and a low idling motor and the AC on, what happens when the temp starts to climb?

 

[Telco]

I agree. Putting a clutch fan on the car would drop both power and fuel economy considerably. Those things draw around 30HP off the engine all the time, and can draw as much as 100HP when they are fully engaged. I don't even know how you would do this because the LS water pump is not centered where a clutch fan would need it to be, and an old style clutch fan depends upon heat traveling up the fan shaft from the water pump to lock the clutch. Your only real solution (if you really want an old style fan) would be to use something like an air conditioner clutch for the pulley assembly that the fan bolts to, and use a standalone temp gauge to control when the clutch locks up. Then, you'd have to get used to the engine suddenly losing 40 percent of its power every summer, when the engine temp climbed enough to activate the clutch to turn on the fan. It would feel like hitting a wall every time the fan engaged, because it would go from off to full blast with no slippage like a factory clutch fan setup would give you.

But, I'm going to assume here that the problem is since you are using a Grand Marquis fan instead of an LS fan, you have a 1st gen LS and the charging system isn't keeping up with the fan added to the system. If this is the case, finding a more efficient electric fan plus getting a deep cycle batter and just putting it on a charger once a week would be the answer until someone positively comes up with a solution.

Another solution would be to add a second alternator and set up a separate power system. You could use this to power the fans and any other aftermarket electronics you might want to run.

Question to those who might know (I don't have one so this is academic to me), would installing a resistor into the Gen 1 alternator control wiring be sufficient to fool the computer into thinking it is controlling the alternator, thus allowing you to install a conventional alternator? Sometimes the simple solutions are too simple to consider.

 

[fudge12]

A resistor could be possible to consider, but it all depends what the pcm is looking for. Is it looking at voltage alone and/or amps? Other problems would be getting custom brackets and/or a custom fit alternator.

 

[Telco]

That I don't know, which is why I threw it out there. If the resistor would work, then you wouldn't need a bracket. You could just install a standard alternator with a built in regulator that would work like almost every other car out there. Seems like I might have mentioned this before though, now I think about it. One would need to know what the control strategy was to know if just a resistor would work.

Another possibility would be if the PCM sends a specific voltage to the alternator expecting to see a specific result, then one of the engineering guys on here might be able to build one of those postage stamp PCM jobs could be made to give the correct response to the PCM's output. As long as the PCM is happy with whatever fakes the alternator feedback, a regular alternator can be stuck in there. Anyone have a set of Gen 1 manuals who can post up the test procedure with expected results listed? That might give a clue on how to do this.

 

[joegr]

A resistor could be possible to consider, but it all depends what the pcm is looking for. Is it looking at voltage alone and/or amps? Other problems would be getting custom brackets and/or a custom fit alternator.

I'm pretty sure that the PCM is looking for an active pulse width signal. You'd probably have to rig up something with a microcontroller programmed to simulate the correct signal in response to the signals that the PCM sends out.

 

[fudge12]

That's exactly what I thought. If I can get in contact with an engineer and donate my car a few weeks, I'm sure we could get a good thing going here.

 

[1LoudLS]

Are we still talking about a clutch fan here?

why would this be a good thing?

 

[Telco]

Are we still talking about a clutch fan here?

why would this be a good thing?

Jacked this from being a clutch fan thread to another "get rid of that crappy alternator scheme on the 1st gen" thread as an alternative to the power hogging clutch fan. Those little postage stamp controllers are being made to do a lot, so I'd think that one could be made to simulate alternator output in response to PCM control enough to be able to ditch the PCM controlled alternator of the 1st gen. Unfortunately I don't know how to program one.

Here are some links for products that might work for this.
http://www.parallax.com/
http://www.societyofrobots.com/member_tutorials/files/nv6.pdf

If one of these can be made to keep the PCM happy, there you go. Fudge, if you'd be willing to drive this for the Gen 1 crowd, I think you'd be very popular with quite a few members here. Hope something can come of this.

 

[fudge12]

I would be more than happy to as long as I can find someone to make sure they can do it without burning up my pcm lol

 

[1LoudLS]

well you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs!

 

[theophile]

Here's some random info from the manual:

The Generator Load Input (GLI) circuit is used by the PCM to determine generator load on the engine. As generator load increases the PCM will adjust idle speed accordingly. This strategy helps reduce idle surges due to switching high current loads. The GLI signal is sent to the PCM from the voltage regulator/generator. The signal is a variable frequency duty cycle. Normal operating frequency is 40 - 250 Hz . Normal signal DC voltage (referenced to ground) is between 1.5 V (low generator load) and 10.5 V (high generator load).

CAUTION:

• To prevent damage to the generator, do not make jumper wire connections except as directed.
• Do not allow any metal object to come in contact with the housing and the internal diode cooling fins with key on or off. A short circuit will result and burn out the diodes.

NOTE: Battery posts and cable clamps must be clean and tight for accurate meter indications.

1. Turn off all lamps and electrical components.
2. Place the vehicle in transmission range NEUTRAL and apply the parking brake.
3. Carry out the Load Test and No-Load Test according to the following component tests:
4. Generator On-Vehicle Tests - Load Test
5. Switch the tester to the ammeter function.
6. Connect the positive and negative leads of the tester to the corresponding battery terminals.
7. Connect the current probe to the generator B+ output terminal, circuit 38 (BK/OG).
8. With the engine running at 2,000 rpm , adjust the tester load bank to determine the output of the generator.
9. With the engine running, turn the A/C on, the blower motor on high speed and the headlamps on high beam.
10. Increase the engine speed to approximately 2,000 rpm . The voltage should increase a minimum of 0.5 volt above the base voltage.
    • If the voltage does not increase as specified, refer back to the pinpoint test.
    • If the voltage increases as specified, the charging system is operating normally.

Generator On-Vehicle Tests - No Load Test

1. Switch the tester to the voltmeter function.
2. Connect the voltmeter positive lead to the generator B+ terminal and the negative lead to ground.
3. Turn all electrical accessories off.
4. With the engine running at 2,000 rpm , check the generator output voltage. The voltage should be between 13.0 and 15.0 volts . If not, refer to the Symptom Chart. See: Testing and Inspection\Symptom Related Diagnostic Procedures
5. Turn the A/C on, the blower motor on high speed and the headlamps on high beam.
6. The voltage should increase a minimum of 0.5 volt above the base voltage.
   • If the voltage does not increase as specified, refer back to the pinpoint test.
   • If the voltage increases as specified, the charging system is operating normally.

Item	Specification
Generator 3.0L	XR8U-AC
Generator 3.9L	XR8U-CD
Rating (gen. crank/rev.) 3.0/3.9L	(105 AMP/MAX)
Voltage Output	13.0 - 15.0 V at 2000 rpm
Generator ratio, 3.0L	2.65:1
Generator ratio, 3.9L	2.78:1
Voltage regulator type	Electronic integral with generator

 

[lesjr68]

thanks for the info guys I was just wondering about the clutch fan. but as for charging I have no problems for I am using a marine battery lol. but I guss il just have to spend the money and do the flex a lite 183 and wire so it runs the the a/c.thanks

 

[1LoudLS]

but as for charging I have no problems for I am using a marine battery lol.

thats not going to help you at all...


batteries only store power no matter whether they are for car, boats, or spacecrafts, they can't create power. your fan uses power, and without an alternator to convert energy any/every battery would just run empty sooner or later. so your alternator has to run every thing that is electrical in the car AND recharge the battery back from was was needed to get the motor running...

so whether you have one car battery or ten boat batteries, if your fan uses too much current, then sooner or later you're gonna kill your alternator

 

[2002_lincolnLS]

thats not going to help you at all...


batteries only store power no matter whether they are for car, boats, or spacecrafts, they can't create power. your fan uses power, and without an alternator to convert energy any/every battery would just run empty sooner or later. so your alternator has to run every thing that is electrical in the car AND recharge the battery back from was was needed to get the motor running...

so whether you have one car battery or ten boat batteries, if your fan uses too much current, then sooner or later you're gonna kill your alternator

I don't have to fill my car up because I use boat gas....

 

[hite337]

Boat gas is expensive.....

 

[1LoudLS]

Boat gas is expensive.....

especially if you're running VP110 or VP115...