Why Didn’t Obama Wreck the Economy When He Had the Chance?

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Why Didn’t Obama Wreck the Economy When He Had the Chance?
Michael Medved
Wednesday, March 17, 2010

If President Obama really means to wreck the U.S. economy (as many influential conservatives stridently insist) then why didn’t he finish the job when he had the chance—in September, 2008? The argument for Obama’s ruinous intentions can’t account for his unequivocal endorsement of the Bush financial rescue plan just two months before the presidential election.

According to those who believe that deliberate devastation represents the prime item on the presidential agenda, Barack Obama is a liberty-hating radical who wants to replace our free market system with a socialist dictatorship or, at best, a French-style welfare state. The president’s most suspicious detractors argue that the only way he can realize his Marxist dreams involves engineering the collapse of our free market system and then imposing a government-controlled economy more to his liking. This logic concludes that in order to cement his hold on power, he’ll eventually make the people so destitute and desperate that they will turn to federal protection in a state of utter dependence.

The most obvious rebuttal to these paranoid delusions concerns the re-election imperative. Barack Obama must face the electorate in just two and a half years, and presidents who preside over financial collapse or national hardship win scant support for “four more years.” With this in mind, it’s hard to imagine the president going to bed at night, praying the unemployment rate will rise the next day, or that the Dow Jones average will go down. Presidents yearn for positive economic outcomes not because they’re selfless humanitarians but because, like all politicians, they possess a well-developed instinct for self-preservation. If the economy crashes under Obama’s watch the public would be more likely to blame Obamunism rather than capitalism, and to throw out the Democrats before they threw out the free market system.

If Barack Obama yearned for a financial catastrophe he could have gotten his wish with ease and with no risk of blame had he responded differently to the Wall Street crisis of the Fall of 2008. My long-time producer, Jeremy Steiner (“The Pride of Hillsdale College”) makes the brilliant point that the definitive answer to claims of Obama’s bad intentions centers on his behavior when faced with the banking meltdown 18 months ago. With most of the major financial players (particularly AIG) on the point of bankruptcy, and President Bush struggling mightily to win Congressional approval for his $700 billion TARP bailout package, candidate Obama provided decisive support. Had he taken the opposite position – raising his voice as the Democratic presidential nominee to block the federal rescue of the banking system – there’s no chance The Troubled Asset Relief Program could have won approval in the House. The rescue package remained deeply unpopular in the nation at large, and the majority of House Republicans voted against it twice. Only overwhelming Democratic support (Pelosi and her colleagues backed the plan, 172 to 63) insured its passage and, as the widely admired Presidential nominee of his party, Senator Obama easily could have shifted that support and doomed the bailout.

In other words, those who believe that Obama intends to wreck capitalism must somehow explain the inconvenient fact that he passed up a golden opportunity to do just that two months before his election.

Some skeptics still insist that providing the TARP money actually did more damage than good to the financial system, and thereby can explain Obama’s support for the rescue as still somehow reflecting his hatred of the free market. But that line of reasoning rests on arguments about the economy’s long-term health, not its immediate performance in the months before the election. No economic analyst doubts that a final defeat of the Bush bailout would have produced a devastating wave of major failures in the financial world and a near total freeze of the banking system. When the House of Representatives narrowly turned down the TARP proposal in its first vote on September 29th, Wall Street responded the next day with the greatest one-time loss in Dow Jones history --- plummeting a gut-wrenching, unprecedented 777 points. That experience helped persuade additional Democrats, and 91 of 199 Republicans, to go along with both presidential candidates and to approve the package.

And what if Obama had split with McCain and Bush, aligning himself with overwhelming public opposition to the bailout, and blocking its approval in Congress? When the market collapsed and companies went under, there’s no chance the public would have blamed the candidate criticizing Bush and Paulson more than they blamed the candidate (McCain) who backed them. In fact, populist opposition to TARP, combined with the resulting financial catastrophe, would have produced an even greater margin of victory for Obama and the Democrats. Instead of winning by 7 percentage points, the Democratic nominee could have easily won by an historic landslide of 20 points or more.

If Obama really wanted the wreckage of capitalism and its replacement and restructuring with socialism, he could have achieved that goal with surprising ease following market devastation and a crushing victory. With Wall Street in ruins, the new president could have inspired the nation by taking federal control of the shattered economy. Bush would have been blamed for the horrible scale of the suffering and the new leader would get credit for even the most modest change.

Politically, it made no sense for Barack Obama to join Bush, McCain and the Wall Street establishment in backing TARP. His resolute support for his partisan rivals makes no sense at all without the sane, obvious assumption that Obama (like most politicians of both left and right) actually wants the best for the country, its economy and its citizens.

And if he wanted to protect the financial well-being of the Republic while Bush still presided in the White House, why would he suddenly reverse himself and want to ruin the nation when he occupied the Oval Office? How could even the most paranoid conspiracy theorists suggest that Obama wanted to defend the economy during the last days of the Bush regime, but somehow wanted to damage it once he took over and would receive the bulk of the blame?

Recalling candidate Obama’s support for the rescue package in September of ’08 doesn’t prove that he made the right decision then, or that he’s followed productive policies since assuming the presidency some four months later. On my radio show and elsewhere, I’ve expressed my fervent opposition to the president’s devastating and incompetent economic policies, featuring reckless spending, insane deficits, wasteful stimulus spending, relentless governmental expansion, catastrophic tax increases, chilling cap-and-trade and, worst of all, a wretchedly misguided health care takeover.

These initiatives may well result in undermining the prosperity of the United States, even though there’s scant reason to believe that this ruination represents Obama’s ultimate intention. But the irrational insistence that the president deliberately desires to inflict economic pain, thereby undermining his own popularity and electoral prospects, makes so little sense that it will render conservatives less effective in opposition, not more so. We stand a better chance of defeating Obama’s schemes, and restoring the free market system, if we resist his policies as sincerely but disastrously misguided, not willfully and suicidally destructive.

Copyright © 2010 Salem Web Network. All Rights Reserved.
 
..answer:
Because he doesn't have the political and government infrastructure in place yet.
Also, because Cloward-Piven isnt about simply causing a financial collapse, it's about loaded up the government welfare system up until IT collapses INTO the new system.
A bad economy and bad economic policy pushes more people INTO the public systems that hastens this increased dependency and collapse.
 
..answer:
Because he doesn't have the political and government infrastructure in place yet.
Also, because Cloward-Piven isnt about simply causing a financial collapse, it's about loaded up the government welfare system up until IT collapses INTO the new system.
A bad economy and bad economic policy pushes more people INTO the public systems that hastens this increased dependency and collapse.
Exactly. I was just about to post essentially the same reply before I saw yours.

Obama is simply alternating between growing government and crushing liberty. You have to fill the vacuum of absent liberty with government infrastructure in order to bring about your socialist utopia.

Medved is a little wacky sometimes - just because he found an outlier doesn't automatically mean anybody who points to the evidence that Obama is deliberately crushing the economy is irrational. Ease up on the caffeine, Mike.
 
So, as this man says – think about this logically…

Do you really think when Obama got into office he said to himself, ‘OK, I’ve got 2 years to socialize the country.’? That is just silly.

Obama is a smart man, and knows that everything he would be doing those two years would have been scrutinized to the max. Perhaps more so than any other President in history.

So, he has only 2 years, not 4 – because obviously changing the US to a socialist country would be unpopular, and the 2010 elections would negate any further changes, as the opposing party would threaten the majority in the house and the senate (as they are doing). Best to have all the changes in place, and dispense with elections.

So, logically, does it make sense that this President laid out a 2 year plan to nationalize industry, create a truly socialized society, totally alter the government structure, remove the constitution and basically destroy America as we know it today?

Of course not.

That would take at least 4 years… :p

Realistically - if it doesn't get done in 2 years it won't get done. The backlash at the attempt would be devastating to any future socialist plan. He would know that, as I said, Obama is a very intelligent man.

I do think that with health care he sees this as a 'legacy' type change. He probably has seen a lot of people without health care insurance fade away and die (much like his mother). He wanted to improve people's lives, I don't think this has anything to do with implementing a greater socialistic state. Is he progressive - to some extent. Is he socialist - no.

He also did a couple of other things that would indicate that overall socialism isn't a final goal. He is allowing the banks and the car companies to pay back their debt to the government, in a reasonable and doable fashion. If he had wanted to he could have truly nationalized them at that point, or created a repayment plan that was unachievable. He did neither. At this rate GM will pay back the government this year (as the article states) and many banks already have, and many more will this next year.

Nationalizing the banking system would have been anyone's first choice if you are going to socialize a country. And that opportunity was handed to Obama on a silver platter, and he didn't try to do it. Real socialists don't like Obama, because of that specific thing - he could have really started us down the road to socialism with that one act.
 
So, as this man says – think about this logically…

Do you really think when Obama got into office he said to himself, ‘OK, I’ve got 2 years to socialize the country.’? That is just silly.

Obama is a smart man, and knows that everything he would be doing those two years would have been scrutinized to the max. Perhaps more so than any other President in history.
Well as usual, you've got everything upside down, and back to front.

Obama was taught socialism. He sought out professors and friends who were Marxists in college. He admitted he wants to transform the country. He clearly hates the country and wants to 'right the wrongs' of the greedy capitalists. He also knows that the media has and always will give him cover for everything he does. Have you forgotten the swooning on the campaign trail? Give me a break - even NBC was so in the tank that they produced an informercial from inside the White House to promote Obamacare. Your argument just isn't credible when held up to the historical facts.

So, he has only 2 years, not 4 – because obviously changing the US to a socialist country would be unpopular, and the 2010 elections would negate any further changes, as the opposing party would threaten the majority in the house and the senate (as they are doing). Best to have all the changes in place, and dispense with elections.

So, logically, does it make sense that this President laid out a 2 year plan to nationalize industry, create a truly socialized society, totally alter the government structure, remove the constitution and basically destroy America as we know it today?

Of course not.

That would take at least 4 years… :p

Realistically - if it doesn't get done in 2 years it won't get done. The backlash at the attempt would be devastating to any future socialist plan. He would know that, as I said, Obama is a very intelligent man.
Again, you're totally wrong - either lying or colossally ignorant. Obama and his lefties have been dreaming of taking over the country for decades and they recognize that this is their best chance. They are clearly willing to risk losing a couple of election cycles in order to cement millions of new voters dependent on Obamacare.
I do think that with health care he sees this as a 'legacy' type change. He probably has seen a lot of people without health care insurance fade away and die (much like his mother). He wanted to improve people's lives, I don't think this has anything to do with implementing a greater socialistic state. Is he progressive - to some extent. Is he socialist - no.
So you think he's misguided and completely ignorant about the ramifications of healthcare? So he's not pulling the strings? He's just a puppet? Hmm, you have to pick your poison. Either he's a dolt or knows what he's doing. You say he's VERY INTELLIGENT and yet you admit that you think he's stupid.

Can't have it both ways, fox!

Fact is, Obama knows that the fastest way to improve people's lives is to cut taxes. Yet he is RAISING taxes. So he's a liar as well as a socialist. Oh, still waiting for those 'stats' showing how many people die from lack of insurance. Remember, charts only!:rolleyes:

He also did a couple of other things that would indicate that overall socialism isn't a final goal. He is allowing the banks and the car companies to pay back their debt to the government, in a reasonable and doable fashion.
ALLOWING? (There's your big brother mindset again, fox - need to start proofreading lest the truth get out!) Actually, Obama refused repayment of TARP money by the banks, and forced the money on others that didn't want it. He also fired the CEO of GM. Darn those pesky facts, eh?
If he had wanted to he could have truly nationalized them at that point, or created a repayment plan that was unachievable. He did neither. At this rate GM will pay back the government this year (as the article states) and many banks already have, and many more will this next year. Nationalizing the banking system would have been anyone's first choice if you are going to socialize a country. And that opportunity was handed to Obama on a silver platter, and he didn't try to do it. Real socialists don't like Obama, because of that specific thing - he could have really started us down the road to socialism with that one act.
And Obama is dictating how much the CEOs get paid - yeah right, sure it's not nationalized.

Plus, you're ignoring the fact that Obama is trying to nationalize healthcare in one fell swoop. Darn those pesky facts - they get in the way of good spin, don't they? :rolleyes:
 
Well as usual, you've got everything upside down, and back to front.

Obama was taught socialism. He sought out professors and friends who were Marxists in college. He admitted he wants to transform the country. He clearly hates the country and wants to 'right the wrongs' of the greedy capitalists. He also knows that the media has and always will give him cover for everything he does. Have you forgotten the swooning on the campaign trail? Give me a break - even NBC was so in the tank that they produced an informercial from inside the White House to promote Obamacare. Your argument just isn't credible when held up to the historical facts.
Again, you're totally wrong - either lying or colossally ignorant. Obama and his lefties have been dreaming of taking over the country for decades and they recognize that this is their best chance. They are clearly willing to risk losing a couple of election cycles in order to cement millions of new voters dependent on Obamacare.

So, you admit the 'two year plan' is silly - right - there is no way to change this country to socialist in a two year election cycle? That the Dems are willing to plan ahead and give up election cycles to implement their evil take over of the government and change this country to become a socialist country.

Really?

And no doubt this has been happening since Teddy Roosevelt, oh wait, we can go further back, Lincoln... since Lincoln... no, wait further back... Andrew Jackson... whoops - wait we can go further back, because according to you Foss - you believe the founding fathers opened the door to socialism and wrote the constitution accordingly (still waiting for that essay Foss). There is one overriding goal with a certain group of Americans, since the 1700s, no doubt in some secret society (read much Dan Brown Foss?) that we need to become socialist.

Really?

Still waiting for those 'stats' showing how many people die from lack of insurance. Remember, charts only!:rolleyes:

I said that Obama has probably seen many people die from lack of health care insurance - starting with his mother. He worked a lot in inner city situations, situations where people no doubt died because of a lack of good health insurance.

But, since you asked...

CausesOfDeathTerrorism_2009.gif


ALLOWING? (There's your big brother mindset again, fox - need to start proofreading lest the truth get out!) Actually, Obama refused repayment of TARP money by the banks, and forced the money on others that didn't want it. He also fired the CEO of GM. Darn those pesky facts, eh?And Obama is dictating how much the CEOs get paid - yeah right, sure it's not nationalized.

Really - we have been getting repaid Foss - lots and lots of money - in fact, Tarp may become a money making endeavor...

And yes, he fired the Pres of GM - a wonderful move... heck, finally GM is on the road to recovery...

Another chart - since you seem to demand them Foss

31taxpayer_large.jpg


Plus, you're ignoring the fact that Obama is trying to nationalize healthcare in one fell swoop. Darn those pesky facts - they get in the way of good spin, don't they? :rolleyes:

And someday Foss you need to get a basic grasp of the word 'nationalize'... Where are the provisions that the government take over anything... Let's see - there aren't any, and the companies that drive the health care industry aren't worried about a government take over -
Wellpoint - up to $62.00 (today) from $30.00 (Mar 2009)
Community Health Sytems up to $37.00 (today) from $14.00 (Mar 2009)
Bristol-Myers Squibb up to $27.00 (today) from $21.00 (Mar 2009)

Hope you have invested heavily in those companies doomed to be nationalized Foss...

Not really an industry that looks like it is too worried about national takeovers...
 
Medical charts, fox. CAUSE OF DEATH. Show me one medical chart that shows one person who died from lack of insurance. Your chart showing 45,000 deaths is bogus. Where'd you get that, some blog? :bowrofl: Plus, you didn't cite a source. Quit playing games.

By the way, I'm still waiting for my tax cut based on the returned TARP money. I haven't been paid a dime. Should I hold my breath?

So, you admit the 'two year plan' is silly - right - there is no way to change this country to socialist in a two year election cycle? That the Dems are willing to plan ahead and give up election cycles to implement their evil take over of the government and change this country to become a socialist country.

Really?
Who am I going to believe, you or my lying eyes? The American people are heavily opposed to Obamacare and yet Congressional Dems are pushing it harder than ever. They are rewriting the rules in direct contravention of the Constitution as we speak. Who's kamikaze here? Or are you saying that Democrats are the most out of touch bunch in the history of the US?

Brilliant, you're not.
 

Those numbers are based on an exceedingly flawed study.
Myth Diagnosis
Everyone knows that people without health insurance are more likely to die. But are they?
By Megan McArdle

Outside of the few states where it is illegal to deny coverage based on medical history, I am probably uninsurable. Though I’m in pretty good health, I have several latent conditions, including an autoimmune disease. If I lost the generous insurance that I have through The Atlantic, even the most charitable insurer might hesitate to take me on.

So I took a keen interest when, at the fervid climax of the health-care debate in mid-December, a Washington Post blogger, Ezra Klein, declared that Senator Joseph Lieberman, by refusing to vote for a bill with a public option, was apparently “willing to cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands” of uninsured people in order to punish the progressives who had opposed his reelection in 2006. In the ensuing blogstorm, conservatives condemned Klein’s “venomous smear,” while liberals solemnly debated the circumstances under which one may properly accuse one’s opponents of mass murder.

But aside from an exchange between Matthew Yglesias of the Center for American Progress and Michael Cannon of the Cato Institute, few people addressed the question that mattered most to those of us who cannot buy an individual insurance policy at any price—the question that was arguably the health-care debate’s most important: Was Klein (not to mention other like-minded editorialists who cited similar numbers) right? If we lost our insurance, would this gargantuan new entitlement really be the only thing standing between us and an early grave?

Perhaps few people were asking, because the question sounds so stupid. Health insurance buys you health care. Health care is supposed to save your life. So if you don’t have someone buying you health care well, you can complete the syllogism.

Last year’s national debate on health-care legislation tended to dwell on either heart-wrenching anecdotes about costly, unattainable medical treatments, or arcane battles over how many people in the United States lacked insurance. Republicans rarely plumbed the connection between insurance and mortality, presumably because they would look foolish and heartless if they expressed any doubt about health insurance’s benefits. It was politically safer to harp on the potential problems of government interventions—or, in extremis, to point out that more than half the uninsured were either affluent, lacking citizenship, or already eligible for government programs in which they hadn’t bothered to enroll.

Even Democratic politicians made curiously little of the plight of the uninsured. Instead, they focused on cost control, so much so that you might have thought that covering the uninsured was a happy side effect of really throttling back the rate of growth in Medicare spending. When progressive politicians or journalists did address the disadvantages of being uninsured, they often fell back on the same data Klein had used: a 2008 report from the Urban Institute that estimated that about 20,000 people were dying every year for lack of health insurance.

But when you probe that claim, its accuracy is open to question. Even a rough approximation of how many people die because of lack of health insurance is hard to reach. Quite possibly, lack of health insurance has no more impact on your health than lack of flood insurance.

Part of the trouble with reports like the one from the Urban Institute is that they cannot do the kind of thing we do to test drugs or medical procedures: divide people randomly into groups that do and don’t have health insurance, and see which group fares better. Experimental studies like this would be tremendously expensive, and it’s hard to imagine that they’d attract sufficient volunteers. Moreover, they might well violate the ethical standards of doctors who believed they were condemning the uninsured patients to a life nasty, brutish, and short.

So instead, researchers usually do what are called “observational studies”: they take data sets that include both insured and uninsured people, and compare their health outcomes—usually mortality rates, because these are unequivocal and easy to measure. For a long time, two of the best studies were Sorlie et al. (1994), which used a large sample of census data from 1982 to 1985; and Franks, Clancy, and Gold (1993), which examined a smaller but richer data set from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey, and its follow-up studies, between 1971 and 1987. The Institute of Medicine used the math behind these two studies to produce a 2002 report on an increase in illness and death from lack of insurance; the Urban Institute, in turn, updated those numbers to produce the figure that became the gold standard during the debate over health-care reform.

The first thing one notices is that the original studies are a trifle elderly. Medicine has changed since 1987; presumably, so has the riskiness of going without health insurance. Moreover, the question of who had insurance is particularly dodgy: the studies counted as “uninsured” anyone who lacked insurance in the initial interview. But of course, not all of those people would have stayed uninsured—a separate study suggests that only about a third of those who reported being uninsured over a two-year time frame lacked coverage for the entire period. Most of the “uninsured” people probably got insurance relatively quickly, while some of the “insured” probably lost theirs. The effect of this churn could bias your results either way; the inability to control for it makes the statistics less accurate.

The bigger problem is that the uninsured generally have more health risks than the rest of the population. They are poorer, more likely to smoke, less educated, more likely to be unemployed, more likely to be obese, and so forth. All these things are known to increase your risk of dying, independent of your insurance status.

There are also factors we can’t analyze. It’s widely believed that health improves with social status, a quality that’s hard to measure. Risk-seekers are probably more likely to end up uninsured, and also to end up dying in a car crash—but their predilection for thrills will not end up in our statistics. People who are suspicious of doctors probably don’t pursue either generous health insurance or early treatment. Those who score low on measures of conscientiousness often have trouble keeping jobs with good health insurance—or following complicated treatment protocols. And so on.

The studies relied upon by the Institute of Medicine and the Urban Institute tried to control for some of these factors. But Sorlie et al.—the larger study—lacked data on things like smoking habits and could control for only a few factors, while Franks, Clancy, and Gold, which had better controls but a smaller sample, could not, as an observational study, categorically exclude the possibility that lack of insurance has no effect on mortality at all.

The possibility that no one risks death by going without health insurance may be startling, but some research supports it. Richard Kronick of the University of California at San Diego’s Department of Family and Preventive Medicine, an adviser to the Clinton administration, recently published the results of what may be the largest and most comprehensive analysis yet done of the effect of insurance on mortality. He used a sample of more than 600,000, and controlled not only for the standard factors, but for how long the subjects went without insurance, whether their disease was particularly amenable to early intervention, and even whether they lived in a mobile home. In test after test, he found no significantly elevated risk of death among the uninsured.

This result is not, perhaps, as shocking as it seems. Health care heals, but it also kills. Someone who lacked insurance over the past few decades might have missed taking their Lipitor, but also their Vioxx or Fen-Phen. According to one estimate, 80,000 people a year are killed just by “nosocomial infections”—infections that arise as a result of medical treatment. The only truly experimental study on health insurance, a randomized study of almost 4,000 subjects done by Rand and concluded in 1982, found that increasing the generosity of people’s health insurance caused them to use more health care, but made almost no difference in their health status.

If gaining insurance has a large effect on people’s health, we should see outcomes improve dramatically between one’s early and late 60s. Yet like the Kronick and Rand studies, analyses of the effect of Medicare, which becomes available to virtually everyone in America at the age of 65, show little benefit. In a recent review of the literature, Helen Levy of the University of Michigan and David Meltzer of the University of Chicago noted that the latest studies of this question “paint a surprisingly consistent picture: Medicare increases consumption of medical care and may modestly improve self-reported health but has no effect on mortality, at least in the short run.”

Of course, that might be an indictment of programs like Medicare and Medicaid. Indeed, given the uncertainties about their impact on mortality rates—uncertainties that the results from Sorlie et al. don’t resolve—it’s possible that, by blocking the proposed expansion of health care through Medicare, Senator Lieberman, rather than committing the industrial-scale slaughter Klein fears, might not have harmed anyone at all. We cannot use one study to “prove” that having government insurance is riskier than having none. But we also cannot use a flawed and conflicting literature to “prove” that Lieberman was willing to risk the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Government insurance should have some effect, but if that effect is not large enough to be unequivocally evident in the data we have, it must be small.

Even if we did agree that insurance rarely confers significant health benefits, that would not necessarily undermine the case for a national health-care program. The academics who question the mass benefits of expanding coverage still think that doing so improves outcomes among certain vulnerable subgroups, like infants and patients with HIV. Besides, a national health program has nonmedical benefits. Leaving tens of millions of Americans without health insurance violates our sense of equity—and leaves those millions exposed to the risk of mind-boggling medical bills.

But we should have had a better handle on the case for expanded coverage—and, more important, the evidence behind it—before we embarked on a year-long debate that divided our house against itself. Certainly, we should have had it before Congress voted on the largest entitlement expansion in 40 years. Unfortunately, most of us forgot to ask a fundamental question, because we were certain we already knew the answer. By the time we got around to challenging our assumptions, it was too late to do anything except scream at each other from the sidelines.​
 
Excellent article, Shag. And fox' credibility circles the drain...

I would also point out this factoid:

Using the "Harvard" study's logic, if 45,000 people die every year due to lack of insurance, then the other 2,455,000 people that die in the US every year die DUE TO having health insurance.

Health insurance is hazardous to your health! :rolleyes:
 
State-by-state analysis ties lack of insurance to earlier death

People without health coverage are at higher mortality risk because they skip preventive care and necessary treatment, researchers say.

By Doug Trapp, amednews staff. May 5, 2008.

Washington -- Uninsured people die prematurely at a rate that equals several additional deaths per day in highly populated states, such as Texas, Florida and California, according to recent analyses by the consumer group Families USA.

The reports, released in March and April, are based on earlier studies by the Institute of Medicine and the Urban Institute, a policy research organization. Overall, uninsured people between the ages of 25 and 64 were 25% more likely to die than their same-aged insured counterparts, concluded the 2002 Institute of Medicine report from 2000 data. This increased mortality equaled an additional 18,000 deaths in 2000. The Urban Institute found that lack of insurance caused 22,000 adults' deaths in 2006.

The Families USA analysis, "Dying for Coverage," used the two organizations' methodologies to develop state-specific mortality rates for the uninsured. For example, the estimated number of uninsured adults between 25 and 64 years old in Texas who died prematurely between 2000 and 2006 was nearly 17,700, or more than seven each day, the report said.

"Health insurance really matters in how people make their health care decisions," said Ron Pollack, executive director of Families USA. "We know that people without insurance often forgo checkups, screenings and other preventive care."

But one can't conclude that being uninsured alone killed people, said Kim Bailey, Families USA senior health policy analyst. Instead, not having health insurance is associated with mortality-increasing behavior. "We can't actually attribute any individual deaths," Bailey said.

Still, lack of insurance can hasten death, said AMA President-elect Nancy H. Nielsen, MD, PhD. The death of one uninsured woman in her 50s sticks in her mind. A few years ago, a former student of Dr. Nielsen invited her to speak at a Cleveland hospital. As part of the invitation, Dr. Nielsen was given an old case to diagnose in front of an audience: A woman in her 50s without health insurance who was experiencing abdominal pain.
Uninsured people ages 25 to 64 are 25% more likely to die than their insured counterparts.

After hearing several minutes of background on the patient, Dr. Nielsen eventually asked when the woman's last Pap smear was. The answer: 10 years ago. The woman had developed uterine cancer, a curable disease if caught early. She died a few months after the initial diagnosis.

"You can dance around it all you want, but people who do not have health insurance delay the kinds of preventive care that everybody acknowledges are critical," Dr. Nielsen said. "That woman had a preventable, curable disease, and as a society we failed her because we have not made affordable health care available to all Americans."

The AMA's proposal to expand access to health insurance calls for providing tax credits or vouchers to individuals and families, based on income, to help them buy health insurance. The plan also includes expansion of health plan choices, more unified regulation of health insurance, guaranteed policy renewals, an individual insurance mandate for those earning more than 500% of the federal poverty level, and subsidies for high-risk enrollees.

But even people with health insurance die prematurely, noted Timothy Gorski, MD, an ob-gyn in Arlington, Texas. He said the premise that being uninsured leads to premature deaths is "plausible." But "there's lots and lots and lots of reasons why people don't get preventive care that could save their lives."

For example, depression leads people to delay or forgo care, as does fear of colonoscopies and other uncomfortable preventive procedures. Also, sometimes people would rather spend money on things other than health care, Dr. Gorski said.

Other excellent articles...
"Dying For Coverage," state estimates of the number of people who died from lack of health insurance coverage, Families USA
"Uninsured and Dying Because of It," Urban Institute
"Care Without Coverage: Too Little, Too Late," Institute of Medicine
 
So, you admit the 'two year plan' is silly - right - there is no way to change this country to socialist in a two year election cycle?

No one said that.

It would be nice if you stopped creating caricatures of conservative arguments here. Go read the Cloward-Piven Strategy thread.

And someday Foss you need to get a basic grasp of the word 'nationalize'... Where are the provisions that the government take over anything

You are assuming that if there is not a law that directly nationalizes health care, there is no goal to nationalize healthcare. They couldn't possibly be putting mechanisms in place that would drive private insurers out of the market, could they. You should critically look at the economic/social trade-offs and negative consequences of Democrat legislation.

Again, look at the Cloward-Piven Strategy.
 
Other excellent articles...
"Dying For Coverage," state estimates of the number of people who died from lack of health insurance coverage, Families USA
"Uninsured and Dying Because of It," Urban Institute
"Care Without Coverage: Too Little, Too Late," Institute of Medicine

Again, based on FLAWED DATA AND ANALYSIS.
The studies relied upon by the Institute of Medicine and the Urban Institute tried to control for some of these factors. But Sorlie et al.—the larger study—lacked data on things like smoking habits and could control for only a few factors, while Franks, Clancy, and Gold, which had better controls but a smaller sample, could not, as an observational study, categorically exclude the possibility that lack of insurance has no effect on mortality at all.​
 
Excellent articles Foxpaws...

Why thank you - I thought so.

It is too bad that although people understand that to stop premature death in your car you do preventative maintenance, they don't grasp the same concept when it comes to the human body.

In your car - change the oil - guess what a heck of a lot cheaper than replacing the engine a few years down the road. Plus, a better quality of life - you don't have to wait around for days while the engine is being replaced, merely a lunchtime a few times a year while your car is up on the rack getting the oil changed.

Preventative maintenance - i.e. health screenings and tests equate to longer life, cheaper life, better quality life.

But without health insurance many people can't afford those tests, and put them off or don't do them at all (just like the oil change that doesn't get done). Then instead of a simple lump removal in the case of breast cancer - it has turned into a full blown mastectomy complete with radiation, chemo, the risk of the cancer spreading, and a much higher fatality rate...

Duh, oil change or engine replacement? It is no different than preventative screens vs highly expensive medical intervention with high fatality rates...
 
Foxpaws, you really are a dumbass.

You just posted the article after Shag debunked it and then triumphantly claimed victory.

Well done! :bowrofl:

As we say in basketball, go back and pick up your jock...
 
Again, based on FLAWED DATA AND ANALYSIS.
The studies relied upon by the Institute of Medicine and the Urban Institute tried to control for some of these factors. But Sorlie et al.—the larger study—lacked data on things like smoking habits and could control for only a few factors, while Franks, Clancy, and Gold, which had better controls but a smaller sample, could not, as an observational study, categorically exclude the possibility that lack of insurance has no effect on mortality at all.​

So shag, do you believe that having health insurance has no affect on your chances on living a longer, healthier life?

Then why are we in this argument at all... We should all dump our health insurance - it really makes absolutely no difference in the final outcome. We will all be just fine... :rolleyes:
 
preventive or preventative

The words are often used interchangeably to denote whatever prevents something else happening or occurring, especially when it is undesirable. However, preventative is often applied to an actual object, especially in noun form, while preventive is mostly reserved for an abstract concept, and remains an adjective: Preventive medicine regards vitamin C as an effective preventative against colds.

;)
 
So shag, do you believe that having health insurance has no affect on your chances on living a longer, healthier life?

Then why are we in this argument at all... We should all dump our health insurance - it really makes absolutely no difference in the final outcome. We will all be just fine... :rolleyes:
After that spiel about preventive maintenance, you still don't get it?

Translation: Since I've lost the argument and any credibility, I'll just resort to snarkiness and sarcasm...:rolleyes:
 
WOW you guys get SO DEEP into this you make my head SPIN. It's very simple you can't change things the way the SOCIALIST want to do FAST it's done very slowly like getting to FIRST then SECOND then THIRD base when you start DATING a woman. Our government is set up like a maze you can't really figure out who's to blame when something goes wrong that way nobody goes to jail. Hell I'm still waiting for some one to get prosecuted for this economic breakdown. Nothing ever happened to that investigation about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack when the DEMS were all upset because the committe was asking questions.
 
Foxpaws, you really are a dumbass.

You just posted the article after Shag debunked it and then triumphantly claimed victory.

Well done! :bowrofl:

As we say in basketball, go back and pick up your jock...

The study is not flawed - his bean counter at the Atlantic Monthly says it is... but the AMA states otherwise.

That is why I posted the article from the AMA that backs the studies...

I will go by the AMA when it comes to how health insurance or lack thereof affects lifespan. You are more then welcome to embrace the counters of the beans...

Once again Foss - if you truly believe that lack of healthcare wouldn't affect your chances on living a long, healthy life, why have it - you will be just as healthy, your quality of life will not change, and the age you live to will not alter because you don't have it.
 
preventive or preventative

The words are often used interchangeably to denote whatever prevents something else happening or occurring, especially when it is undesirable. However, preventative is often applied to an actual object, especially in noun form, while preventive is mostly reserved for an abstract concept, and remains an adjective: Preventive medicine regards vitamin C as an effective preventative against colds.

;)

Sorry - typing fast... and one that always gets me... drat...
 
But without health insurance many people can't afford those tests, and put them off or don't do them at all (just like the oil change that doesn't get done). Then instead of a simple lump removal in the case of breast cancer - it has turned into a full blown mastectomy complete with radiation, chemo, the risk of the cancer spreading, and a much higher fatality rate...

Duh, oil change or engine replacement? It is no different than preventative screens vs highly expensive medical intervention with high fatality rates...
It's doubly funny you would use breast cancer as an example considering the Obama Administration's task force determined that women should STOP getting preventive checkups...:rolleyes:

You should really consider the COST of mammograms in the context of Obamacare and ask yourself WHY Obama's bunch came to this absurd conclusion.
 
So shag, do you believe that having health insurance has no affect on your chances on living a longer, healthier life?

The data is inconclusive at best.

Again, health CARE does not equal health INSURANCE. The two are far too often equated in this debate...

Then why are we in this argument at all... We should all dump our health insurance

Health insurance is necessary for catastrophic health issues. But using it for everyday checkups is inefficient and increases costs. If most of America only had catastrophic health insurance, costs would be much cheaper.

Look at your car insurance analogy. I don't have car insurance to cover oil changes, tire rotations, etc. I have it to cover me in an unforeseeable accident.

Likewise, insurance only makes sense for the big things, not the small.

Imagine how much cheaper medical care would be if health insurance (including medicare and medicaid) were set up that way.
 
The study is not flawed - his bean counter at the Atlantic Monthly says it is... but the AMA states otherwise.

Can you say "appeal to authority"?

The article spells out specific flaws in the studies. Weather or not the AMA acknowledges those flaws is irrelevant to that fact.
 
The data is inconclusive at best.

Again, health CARE does not equal health INSURANCE. The two are far too often equated in this debate...

But without health insurance - quality health care, especially preventive care, is well out of the reach of many Americans.
Health insurance is necessary for catastrophic health issues. But using it for everyday checkups is inefficient and increases costs. If most of America only had catastrophic health insurance, costs would be much cheaper.

Look at your car insurance analogy. I don't have car insurance to cover oil changes, tire rotations, etc. I have it to cover me in an unforeseeable accident.

Likewise, insurance only makes sense for the big things, not the small.

Imagine how much cheaper medical care would be if health insurance (including medicare and medicaid) were set up that way.

The cost effect - true - look at lasik - not covered by health insurance, and the costs have gone down. But, insurance companies, to attract more customers and to drive down overall costs, started to add more and more benefits to their plans - including preventative care... They knew that preventative care leads to less expense to the plan eventually, because catching something early is cheaper than dealing with the expensive of a massive health problem down the road.

I have always wondered why insurers, and their preventative care policies haven't driven down costs, instead of increased costs. You have a massive buying group - like Blue Cross/Blue Shield, who is buying millions of mammograms. Why don't they negotiate better deals? The cost to the insurance company is more expensive then I can find on my own.
 

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