Wis. father on trial in girl's faith-healing death

04SCTLS

Dedicated LVC Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
3,188
Reaction score
7
Location
Lockport
Wis. father on trial in girl's faith-healing death

By ROBERT IMRIE
Associated Press Writer
Updated: July 25, 2009, 8:03 AM / 0 comments

Opening statements were set to begin Saturday in the trial of a father charged with second-degree reckless homicide for praying instead of seeking medical help for his gravely ill 11-year-old daughter.Dale Neumann's wife, Leilani, was convicted of the same charge this spring in the 2008 death of Madeline Neumann, called Kara by her parents.
The girl died from undiagnosed diabetes on March 23, 2008, surrounded by people praying at the family's rural home in Weston in central Wisconsin. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.
Leilani Neumann, 41, faces up to 25 years in prison when sentenced Oct. 6.
Prosecutors contend Dale Neumann, 47, recklessly killed the youngest of his four children by ignoring her deteriorating health. They claim the girl was too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk and that Neumann had a legal duty to take her to a doctor.

Dale Neumann's attorney said Friday, when an eight-man, six-woman jury was picked to hear the case, that he didn't know whether the father would testify in his own defense.
"It would be just a guess right now," attorney Jay Kronenwetter said. "It's the defendant's right. Who knows how the trial goes?"
An Oregon jury on Thursday convicted a father of misdemeanor criminal mistreatment for relying on prayer instead of seeking medical care for his 15-month-old daughter who died of pneumonia and a blood infection in March 2008. The father and mother were acquitted of a more serious manslaughter charge.
In the Wisconsin case, Assistant District Attorney LaMont Jacobson said Neumann's trial likely won't differ much from his wife's.
Doctors testified at the first trial that Madeline's gradually declining health would have gotten acute three or four days before she died as her body began shutting down. But despite being unresponsive and in a coma, the girl could have been saved very late into the day of her death with the proper treatment, the doctors said.
Leilani Neumann said during videotaped testimony that the family believes the Bible says healing comes from God and that she never expected her daughter to die. The Neumanns said the girl had not been to a doctor since she was 3.
A criminal complaint said Dale Neumann told police he believed God would heal his daughter right up until she stopped breathing. He also "professed to believe God was going to bring Madeline back to life."

The Neumanns have said the family does not belong to an organized religion.

//_______________________________________________________________

Modern medicine 1, Religion and prayer 0
These people deserve to go to jail.
If some non believers call themselves "brights" then these people were the
"dims"
Betting on a miracle instead of medical treatment is ridiculous.
These people should not be able to use faith as an excuse for gross neglegence.//
 
Just a note-
Not all people that have faith don't go to the doctor. In fact many of the healings in the Bible took place after the person with the ailment had already seen physicians. No where in the Bible I read does it say not to do so. I realize that it's only these type of stories that make the news but keep that in mind. I also realize the family didnot declare what type of religion they belonged to.
But yes, if the parents chose not to get their child help when modern medice was readily available and could have easily changed the course of events then the parents should be prosecuted.
 
Modern medicine 1, Religion and prayer 0
These people deserve to go to jail.
If some non believers call themselves "brights" then these people were the
"dims"
Betting on a miracle instead of medical treatment is ridiculous.
These people should not be able to use faith as an excuse for gross neglegence.//

+1
The kids always suffer.

My Grandmother was Christian science, I still have an uncle that still believes in that BS.
After all the cancer in the family he still won't go get checked out.
By the time he does go it will be too late.
Just like my Grandmother.
 
How far do you want to take that though?
Would it just be better if we let the government make all decisions regarding how children are taken care of?

If the parents wanted to use "holistic" medicine in Asia instead of Western medicine should the government intervene?

What if the family wants to use experimental medicine?

How do you draw this line?
 
Modern medicine 1, Religion and prayer 0
These people deserve to go to jail.
If some non believers call themselves "brights" then these people were the
"dims"
Betting on a miracle instead of medical treatment is ridiculous.
These people should not be able to use faith as an excuse for gross neglegence.//

take THAT, religious nutjobs! :rolleyes:
 
Modern medicine 1, Religion and prayer 0
These people deserve to go to jail.
If some non believers call themselves "brights" then these people were the
"dims"
Betting on a miracle instead of medical treatment is ridiculous.
These people should not be able to use faith as an excuse for gross neglegence.//
Religion and prayer are quite valuable. I've never claimed you should forsake modern medicine, especially in a life threatening situation. As the Bible says, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

That said, there are countless stories where modern medicine has been baffled by someone being inexplicably healed by God. So I don't think you can accurately say that the score is 1 to 0. It's glib, but stupid.
 
take THAT, religious nutjobs! :rolleyes:

But these people ARE nutjobs.
If you don't consider them so then you're putting the bar pretty high.

That said, there are countless stories where modern medicine has been baffled by someone being inexplicably healed by God. So I don't think you can accurately say that the score is 1 to 0. It's glib, but stupid.

Yes I'll agree there are some miraculous things that are inexplicable.
On the other hand my brother just underwent quadruple bypass surgery
on tuesday and is feeling well enough today saturday to be discharged from the hospital.
This could be called a miracle of modern medicine.

Religion and prayer are quite valuable.
Well it can't hurt and certainly can lift someone's spirits knowing how much some people care for them.
 
How far do you want to take that though?
Would it just be better if we let the government make all decisions regarding how children are taken care of?

+109,986,856 the government already takes it to far that kid in walmart throwing a fit at ten that's going nuts cause he didn't get his toy. What would you say if the parent walked up turned his butt red and told him to be quite, report the parent? That is the world we live in now don't touch your kid or we will take em. The sad part is the guy in walmart was in the right this is an example of why the government is here to save a child who could have been but the parents were to stupid to go to the doctor. I'm sorry but faith can give you strength and help you but to rely souly on god is ignorant. I am a firm believer that god helps those who use the free will he gave us he gave you the seance to go to the doctor now use it!!!!!!
 
How far do you want to take that though?
Would it just be better if we let the government make all decisions regarding how children are taken care of?

If the parents wanted to use "holistic" medicine in Asia instead of Western medicine should the government intervene?

What if the family wants to use experimental medicine?

How do you draw this line?

while true placebos have been shown to have effect, this is obviously a case of a treatable medical condition. i don't think people would be looking to holistic approach for something like diabetes. even still, that would show at least an attempt to get treatment for the child.
these people deserve what they get. prayer and belief are overrated. they may bring consolation to a believer, but there is nothing evidenced to healing, and this is just one of the many prime examples.


If the parents wanted to use "holistic" medicine in Asia instead of Western medicine should the government intervene?

What if the family wants to use experimental medicine?

and if they make these choices and the child still dies, are they now innocent of the death because they "got help"?
it may be fine to try things, but when the condition progresses worse, it's time for a visit to a medical doctor. while true they aren't always perfect in diagnoses, chances would be best.
in this case, they showed a flagrant lack of regard for the health of the child.
 
But these people ARE nutjobs.
If you don't consider them so then you're putting the bar pretty high.
But you were iimplying that all religious people are nutjobs. The exception does not prove the rule.
 
But you were iimplying that all religious people are nutjobs. The exception does not prove the rule.

Jedi mind trick :D

Nowhere did I say all religious people are nutjobs.
It was your conclusion that I did.
Shag brought the "nutjob" phrase into the conversation :p
albeit sarcastically.
 
Jedi mind trick :D

Nowhere did I say all religious people are nutjobs.
It was your conclusion that I did.
Shag brought the "nutjob" phrase into the conversation :p
albeit sarcastically.
But you accepted his premise, and taken in context with your silly little vignette "Modern medicine 1, Religion and prayer 0", and with other of your posts where you show contempt for Christianity, it's an easy conclusion to come to. You IMPLIED it.
 
But you accepted his premise, and taken in context with your silly little vignette "Modern medicine 1, Religion and prayer 0", and with other of your posts where you show contempt for Christianity, it's an easy conclusion to come to. You IMPLIED it.

In other posts I said I share Einstein's opinion that all religions are "childish" and "wishful thinking" but I never called all religious people nutjobs.
 
Wisconsin father found guilty in prayer death case

Sunday, August 2, 2009 | 4:33 p.m. CDT
BY ROBERT IMRIE/The Associated Press

WAUSAU, Wis. — A central Wisconsin man accused of killing his 11-year-old daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care was found guilty Saturday of second-degree reckless homicide.
Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted in the March 23 death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes. Prosecutors contended he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she couldn't walk, talk, eat or drink. Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.
Sitting straight in his chair, Neumann stared at the jury as the verdict in a nearly empty courtroom was read. He declined comment as he left the courthouse.
Defense attorney Jay Kronenwetter said the verdict would be appealed. He declined further comment.
Prosecutors also declined comment, citing a gag order.
Leilani Neumann, 41, was convicted on the same charge in the spring. Marathon County Circuit Judge Vincent Howard set Oct. 6 for sentencing both parents, who face up to 25 years in prison.
Their case is believed to be the first in Wisconsin involving faith healing in which someone died and another person was charged with a homicide.
Last month, an Oregon jury convicted a man of misdemeanor criminal mistreatment for relying on prayer instead of seeking medical care for his 15-month-old daughter who died of pneumonia and a blood infection in March 2008. Both of the girl's parents were acquitted of a more serious manslaughter charge.
Neumann's jury — six men and six women — deliberated about 15 hours over two days before convicting him. At one point, jurors asked the judge whether Neumann's belief in faith healing made him "not liable" for not taking his daughter to the hospital even if he knew she wasn't feeling well.
Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, testified Thursday that he believed God would heal his daughter and he never expected her to die. God promises in the Bible to heal, he said.
"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," Neumann testified. "I am not believing what he said he would do."
The father testified that he thought Madeline had the flu or a fever, and several relatives and family friends said they also did not realize how sick she was.
Assistant District Attorney LaMont Jacobson told jurors in closing arguments Friday that Neumann was "overwhelmed by pride" in his interpretation of the Bible and selfishly let Madeline die as a test of faith.
Neumann knew he should have taken his daughter to a doctor and minimized her illness when speaking with investigators, Jacobson said, calling Neumann no different than a drunken driver who remarks he only had a couple of beers.
Doctors testified that Madeline would have had a good chance of survival if she had received medical care, including insulin and fluids, before she stopped breathing.
Kronenwetter told the jury that Neumann sincerely believed praying would heal his daughter and he did nothing criminally wrong.
"Dale Neumann was doing what he thought would work for his daughter," Kronenwetter said. "He was administering faith healing. He thought it was working."
 
Neumann sincerely believed praying would heal his daughter and he did nothing criminally wrong.

Of course it was wrong.
He did nothing for her.
Prayer is not real action.
He should have prayed the doctors
be successful treating his daughter.
He tempted God, as foss would say.
 
Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, testified Thursday that he believed God would heal his daughter and he never expected her to die. God promises in the Bible to heal, he said.

:eyeroll: Too much faith, not enough common sense. Problem is, prayer can do wonderous things, however it should be used as a last resort, not as a first resort.

Also, its abundantly clear 04SCTLS was calling "Faith Healers" like Neumann nutjobs, NOT ALL religious people. But it's never been beyond Foss to twist and destort other's statements to fit his myopic views.
 

Members online

Back
Top