$25 billion Automaker Bailout

[Calabrio]

Well, since I have already been 'specifically' labeled dishonest by you Calabrio, why do you ask honesty from me now? Obviously whatever I say won’t be honest.

There's always hope... and change...

The problems we are encountering now are because of an eroding of capitalism - it has happened before - in the late 1800 early 1900, with the robber barons. Huge amounts of wealth distributed only at the top 1/10 of 1 percent of the population. It was corrected, just like it is getting corrected now. Capitalism works best within fairly narrow parameters. Huge differences on either end of the scale - too much wealth or too much poverty concentrated on the extreme ends of the scale tends to destroy it - economic revolution. It has happened over and over again throughout the world.

This just isn't an accurate reflection of history.
Everyone likes to villifiy the robber barons, but those men did great things with their wealth. Many of those men understood the great responsibility that came with wealth.

Institutions of art, education, and parks were established by these "robber barons." Lasting institutions that we enjoy today. These men were directly responsible for turning America into the dominant power of the 20th century.

Government didn't do that. Industrious individuals did.
Entrepreneurs and capitalism are responsible for it.
Not government.

And the standard of living and the quality of life continued to improve through out the last century DESPITE bad government policy. Despite the depression which was made great by bad protectionist policies. Despite FDRs broad tyrannical application of socialism that PROLONGED the Great Depression for 15 years.

Government never "corrects" these problems.
Capitalism is a self-correcting system. It doesn't always operate as quickly or on the same schedule as a politician might like, but it always works itself out.

But what's so dishonest about this most recent eloquent, though incorrect, post from you is the fact that it's blaming the economic slowdown on the accumulation of wealth.

That's not the problem. None of the problems we are experiencing are due to failures of capitalism, but failures of socialism.

There are two major issues we're discussing right now. The credit crash the preceded the 700B bail out and the U.S. auto industries bankrupcy.

The credit crash can be traced back to bad federal regulations and involvement in the banking. Ultimately, it goes back to Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae, quasi-federal institutions and bad policy implemented and defended by Democrats like Chris Dodd and Barney Frank.

And the problems in the auto industry are primarily the result of the UAW. Bad management came into play, bad management, short term planning, and bad federal regulation contributed as well. None of these things incriminate capitalism.

But all of these things demonstrate how the federal government needs to stop interfering in the marketplace.

But why can't you call me stupid or ignorant - you want to Calabrio - you are just biting at the bit to call me those things... You call me everything else - why draw the line there?

No, I have no interest in calling you any name like that. You're intelligence is evident.
The eloquence of your deception demonstrates this.
If you were stupid, you'd just be wrong.

 

[foxpaws]

There's always hope... and change...

Hey, I have hope and change bumper stickers if you need them Calabrio

The robber barons were mostly larcenists who were exploitative 'political' capitalists. However there were ones that eventually did good things. Unlike you, I don't 'blanket' everyone. There were certainly ones that turned around and gave back to society. But for every Carnegie, there were many Yerkes and Fiskes and Goulds and Collins. The few that were actual market entrepreneurs did some good for the American economy. (However many of the market entrepreneurs were Machiavelian in their business practices, and exploited everything and everyone.) Those that were political entrepreneurs were a pox on the American economy. And that is what we have right now. These companies that have led capitalism down the drain haven't added anything to the economy - they just use political influence, and now American bailout money to feather their nests. There aren't any better mousetraps coming from the leeches on Wall Street or the Big 3 or the mortgage companies - they are draining our economy, not adding to it. There are far too few good men, like Gates (although you do have to wonder if Microsoft could build a better mousetrap even if they were given all the pieces and detailed instructions ), who are giving back, and not just draining.

The accumulation of wealth, when that wealth is just coming on the back of bad debt, bad decisions, political shenanigans and no new mousetraps will slow the economy, or just stop it in it's tracks... That is what we are feeling now. And with no new mousetraps on the horizon, and no money that is being released to allow a mousetrap to be invented, the government will have to step in and do something. At the end of the Robber Baron years, where things were degrading alarmingly, the government took a big chance and enacted anti-trust legislation. It got the economy moving, and capitalism back on track. Without government intervention we were headed toward a country of a few very large companies and almost no innovation. Now anti-trust laws have a whole set of problems associated with them, but it is pretty obvious in this case they did release the log jam in the American economy that the robber barons created.

The buck stops here - with me, with you Calabrio. Eventually all the finger pointing has to stop, and we just need to go forward. Yes, you learn from the past - but, you don't learn a lot from saying 'he did it, he did it.' (And yes, I am guilty of that as well... it is hard not to point fingers at Bush, as all this crashes around him, but, I know as well as the next person, it takes a village). You blame the UAW, I blame the fact that all of Detroit has been living above its realistic means, building second rate product, but living a first class life style, from the top down. You blame the dems, fine, I blame the republicans, but once again - continually assigning blame doesn't seem to be doing anyone any good.

Capitalism isn't at fault - I have never said that. Show me the place where I blamed capitalism Calabrio. I said greed was at fault, greed by people who contribute nothing to the bottom line. Corporate greed by corporate giants who are about to line up at the trough of American tax payer dollars. Those are the ones that have rotted out the core of capitalism. The Lays, the Nacchios, the Fulds, (our current day Yerkes, Fiskes and Goulds) those are our political entrepreneurs who have exploited capitalism to the point where it is just a shell, without a healthy 'core' to build on. Unfortunately the government is the only thing big enough to help rebuild the core, and strengthen capitalism so it can once again be that process where building a better mousetrap is what matters. Not scheming to get the most out of the system with the least amount of actual effort involved, which is what we have right now.

Yes, the American people should be able to exercise their industriousness, ingenuity, and creativity. But right now, because of the damage that has been done, there isn't any way to exercise all those things. Maybe if the government can build a gym, we could start exercising again. Much like the Sherman anti trust laws that helped 'kick start' the economy by allowing healthy competition. Competition that none of the robber barons wanted, even the 'good' ones. They knew that with competition their grip on the American economic landscape would weaken and eventually their power, and wealth would diminish. Which of course it did - and America than enjoyed a very great period of capitalistic growth and economic stability, after the robber barons were brought down.

So, you didn't answer my questions regarding Alinsky and Gramsci, Calabrio - have you read them?

No, I have no interest in calling you any name like that. Your intelligence is evident.
The eloquence of your deception demonstrates this.
If you were stupid, you'd just be wrong.

Is that what you are afraid of?
My intelligence? Or maybe you think that anyone who is intelligent shouldn't be on the left? Whatever, it doesn't mean you should resort to continuously using malicious defamation.

Character assassination is at once easier and surer than physical assault; and it involves far less risk for the assassin. It leaves him free to commit the same deed over and over again...

 

[Calabrio]

Put the victim card away, FP. You've tried that already, it doesn't work.
I don't rely on ad hominem attacks and there's no "malice" in anything I say.

Now, if you want to debate ideas and principles WITHOUT the spin and misleading propaganda, that's great. If you're going to continue to try to trick people and misrepresent yourself, then I'm going to continue to question your honesty and integrity. Maybe some people don't recognize what your doing, or rather, how you are doing it. But I do. And you don't get a free pass.

I wrote a response, paragraph by paragraph to your last post, but I've deleted it. You're comments were absolute nonsense. You're conscious effort to post vague generalizations, unsupported by actual fact, are like trying to nail jello to the wall. You ultimately say nothing supported by fact, but painting a negative abstract picture. Come out of the shadows with your subversive creeping radicalism.

These companies that have led capitalism down the drain haven't added anything to the economy - they just use political influence, and now American bailout money to feather their nests....

Specifics?

There aren't any better mousetraps coming from the leeches on Wall Street or the Big 3

Not true...

they are draining our economy, not adding to it.

This hasn't been true, and it won't be true in the future. However, I can point to bad government policy at the cause of every problem we're seeing today.
Bad management has it's own consequence.
And the Democrat parties great interest in the auto bail out is as much a political favor to the UAW for nearly of century of political and financial support as it is anything else.

And with no new mousetraps on the horizon, and no money that is being released to allow a mousetrap to be invented, the government will have to step in and do something.

Have you ever thought that if the government got out of the way, it'd be a little easier to get that "new mousetrap" to market? Maybe if there weren't so many regulatory hurdles? Or if we didn't have a tax system that is preparing to impose even greater penalities on success?

Eventually all the finger pointing has to stop, and we just need to go forward.

What a very "progressive" thing to say.
ADVANCE THE REVOLUTION!!
True revolutionaries do not flaunt their radicalism. Cut their hair, put on suits and infiltrate the system from within. Penetrate existing institutions such as churches, unions and political parties. But don't tell anyone that's what you're doing, because they'll reject it.

 

[fossten]

Buncha dumb stuff - capitalism bad, government good...

You keep saying that government needs to rebuild this country. I've got news for you - governments don't build anything. The only thing government is good at is breaking things.

I'll see your "corporate robber baron" and raise you an "Amtrak," a "US Postal Service," the "Vietnam War," and a "Waco/Ruby Ridge."

 

[Calabrio]

In order to put the entire auto industry into context, you have to remember that Ford, GM, and even Chrysler have a presence over seas.

Now, in full disclosure, I'm not particularly fond of Chrysler's product. But I don't think that will influence my analysis.

For the last several years, if you really follow these car companies, you have to ask, "Why are there cars so good in Europe." In England, Ford's are considered high quality, affordable, automobiles. The automotive press over there can't speak highly enough about the Ford's sold over there. The Mondeo is considered to be every bit as good, if not better than the BMW 3 series. The European Ford Focus is arguably the best hot hatch in the world. And the Ford Fiesta is the considered among the best B-class cars built over there.

The S-Max, the Ka.... these are all great cars.

In the 70s and 80s, Ford was the largest seller of cars in England-
more than even the angry communists at British Leyland! Cars like the Mark 2 Escort, the cortina, and the RS2000 helped establish that dominance.

This dominance of the market continues to this day. When Tony Blair came to power in the 90s, he did it with the support of a class of voters described as "Mondeo Man."

This is NOT a car company that is void of innovation, design leadership, or potential. GM has a similar, though, I'd argue, not as impressive, history in Europe through Vaxhall/Opel/Houlden, but I'm not as familiar with it.

So why was Ford Europe building such a quality product all the while Detroit was building and outsourcing such a disposable one?

I get very frustrated when I hear government complain about the failures of a management to accomplish a goal when the government knows full well they've enacted a series of obstacles and regulation that make such a thing nearly impossible.

It's silly to pretend that the economic troubles the Big 3 are facing (really Big 2 and Chrysler) are due just to the banking crash. They've been in the red for a while now, and to just make things worse, CONGRESS and the President just imposed more needless regulation with the new overly optimistic CAFE standards. Rather than letting the FREE MARKETS deal with this, the feds had to step in and interfere in a negative way, AGAIN.

Gas prices were high, the market responded as would be expected. Prices were high, demand fell because we all used less gas. Demand for wasteful vehicles fell too and the manufacturers started to more aggressively pursue smaller vehicles in accordance with the market demand of the public.

Prior to that, when people wanted SUVs, the Big 3 complied. And they were happy to. The profit on those gussied up trucks was very high and enabled them to carry the burden of their union legacy costs. They couldn't afford to be too forward thinking IN THIS MARKET because they're carrying the crushing legacy costs associated with the UAW's strong arm monopoly tactics and the foolish mid-20th century idea that we wouldn't have international competition, so the recklessly expensive costs would be safely projected into the future.

And today we're seeing the industry and the UAW lobby the Democrat Congress and Democrat President-Elect for a $25B bail-out. This isn't to be spent on product development, retooling, or anything associated with making money or innovation. It's to be spent on union health care program obligation.

American's have a price point in mind when they buy a small or mid-sized car. Regulation and legacy cost have made it so that none of these companies can meet this price point without having to cut back somewhere. Every time the government requires a new heavy safety system installed on the car, they drive the production costs up, yet the public still expects the car for the same price. The same price despite the various bumper systems. Despite the air bags. Despite the side curtain airbags. Ect. As is so often mentioned, the legacy cost on every car is over $2,000- but the price point for the car doesn't go up, their still competing in a tight competitive market. That $2k has to come from somewhere. And now they're being FORCED to radically change their car line up and technology to meet new, arbitrary government standards imposed by Congress people who don't understand the first thing about cars. I can't remember their name, but remember the congress person who thought it'd be easy to get over 35mpg industry wide because she gets that on her instant MPG display all the time?

Companies, airlines, go bankrupt all the time. Declare bankrupcy, settle with the union, reorganize, and then- move the plants to a city or state that actual values free enterprise... somewhere OTHER than Detroit. Once the legacy costs are under control and companies like GM shift their focus from sales volume to quality and customer loyalty, they'll turn things around. And in the short term, the feds need to make it easier for Ford and GM to IMPORT their European cars over here, and allow those models to count towards their EPA standards.

...while we're at it.. if the feds were serious about any of this, including gas consumption, they also drop the taxes on diesel.

 

[foxpaws]

Calabrio, sweetheart you assassinate my 'character' constantly. It is a reflection on your character that you continue to do this, not mine. As far as I am concerned you argue against me using the basis that I am dishonest, deceitful, communistic, propagandist, and that I have no integrity, That always appears to be enough for you to continue to blanket-ly assert that I am wrong.

So, you haven't read Alinsky or Gramsci? You continue to not answer this. Do you only read, watch, listen to things that support your viewpoint? Or maybe you are only comfortable when your viewpoint is reaffirmed. When the revoltuion comes how do you expect to even recognize it?

Your response apparently wasn't worth posting - correct? Why delete it otherwise? My assertions on the robber barons were correct. The reason the government intervened was correct, the result was correct.

I never claimed capitalism is at fault - correct. I claimed greed was at fault - correct. I compared Lay, Nacchio and Fuld (I have a long list - want them?) to the political robber barons - correct. I look at the big picture (blaming from the top down in Detroit) you blame one small part - correct.

So, where is my subversive creeping radicalism? Point me right too it... You are the one Calabrio that is hiding behind generalities and misconceptions.

I pointed to a very real situation where if the government hadn't stepped in, American would now be run by Standard Oil, Carnegie Steel and UP. Do you think any innovation would have happened with those men driving the country?

Specific companies that have lead capitalism down the drain - Enron, Lehman, WaMu, JP, Bear Sterns, Fannie and Freddie, Merrill, probably soon to be GM, Ford, Chrysler, there are more.

Other than the big 3 - no mousetraps - they are companies that move money around. And the big 3 haven't built a better (however they certainly built much bigger) mousetrap in decades - they depend on Japan or Europe to innovate, than they ride in years later...

I have thought if the government got out of the way that the elusive mousetrap would be built - and certainly in your utopian world that would be the best way. Guess what - in my utopian world that would be the best way too. Heck Calabrio, have you noticed we don't live in uptopia? In utopia you have people who take responsibility for their actions, care about the future, and the generations to come. We have degraded to a society of right now. Without some government intervention we wouldn't breath the air, drink our water, or a myriad of other things.

Yes, government makes a ton of bad regulations - but, why does it make regulations? Why did it make regulations to begin with? The Sherman anti-trust laws are a great example. Some greedy, dishonest, and just downright evil men were taking advantage of a system where they could exploit the system and grow their companies into monoliths which had the power to crush any innovation or competition. This is a pretty bad idea if you want capitalism to work. Heck, I think you lionized Teddy Roosevelt at one time here - he used the Sherman Act extensively. It does have problems, for instance, it probably reduces the economy of scale. It has a negative effect that way.

So, when you have a system, you also have people who will want to take advantage of the system. That is why you regulate. In the savings and loan scandal, people saw a way to take advantage of the system and did so - therefore, after the fact, regulations were put into place to get rid of the problem. That of course can create other problems.

The root problem comes down to greed in most cases. And capitalism on its own doesn't destroy people with greed, it often rewards them. And there are a lot of greedy people in the world. Capitalism if it is unchecked encourages greed which results in abuse. There has to be a balance, individual freedoms must absolutely be protected, but so must the good of the community. I, in absolutely in no way want to have in place some reprogramming of humans that gets rid of greed - that is subversive (read Burroughs on that subject Calabrio). But, I do want in place some set of checks and balances that helps negate the bad results of greed. It is a seven deadly sin, and it would be hard to argue against that logic...

Right now capitalism is on the verge of collapse in this country. Step back and it will fail. You keep pointing to regulatory hurtles or tax penalties. The Japanese and Europeans deal with bigger regulations and larger tax penalties then we do - they don't seem to have problems building bigger and better mousetraps. American has fallen behind in the mousetrap business because some of us have gotten lazy and greedy. Too many people figured out that the best way to make money in America is to just bleed the system. Maybe if the government can create a path to allow and reward those people (and there are lots of them) who have a better mousetrap, we can get back to leading the world in innovation.

So, am I hiding behind something? I pretty clearly state what I want - I want to be able to have a capitalist system - but I certainly am not naive enough to think that without addressing the decay in the current system that it can function properly.

So, I am glad you threw away your post - thanks for making my point for me.

ADVANCE THE REVOLUTION!!
True revolutionaries do not flaunt their radicalism. Cut their hair, put on suits and infiltrate the system from within. Penetrate existing institutions such as churches, unions and political parties. But don't tell anyone that's what you're doing, because they'll reject it.

Sorry - I don't understand that... wanna explain?

The American Revolution was a combination of men who flaunted their radicalism by throwing tea into a harbor, while men in suits (however they did have long hair ) were working behind the scenes in Europe to infiltrate the system from within, meanwhile other men were penetrating the churches and local governments within this country to further the cause.

So, Foss - I don't want the government to rebuild this country - I want government to find paths. Give contracts to companies to fix the decaying infrastructure, find ways to support green technologies with tax breaks or cheap loans, support research for companies that are creating new medical breakthroughs that will help people, bring jobs home that large corporations have exported overseas.

And I'll raise you with those companies I listed above (the Enrons etc) and lets add in Silverado, Keating, American Tobacco, Halibruton, Ideal National Insurance, Dupont, Merek, PG&E, I have tons of these Foss...

And notice - in the little pajama party piece you quoted - item 3 - Gould is directly mentioned - I do know my robber barons pretty well

Oh - I just noticed your post #55 above calabrio -

Obviously more later -

 

[Calabrio]

Calabrio, sweetheart you assassinate my 'character' constantly.

If you say that enough time, someone is going to believe you...
Oh.. that's your goal. I haven't assassinated your character, I've simply described it. If it looks bad, then perhaps you should do some self-reflection.

The American Revolution was a combination of men

Who advanced the cause of liberty, independence, person responsibility, and were against repressive taxation and regulation...

You insult the memory and legacy of those men by trying to associate your cause with them.

And those men had the integrity and honor to discuss and challenge their ideas in the open. There philosophy isn't one of subversion and deception. None of them ever said, "well, we can't convince the adults, so let's just take over the education system and indoctrinate their children." They staked the future of this country and system of government on an INFORMED population. Your movement relies on the manipulation and deception of the population. Of course, I'm sure you'd argue (in private) that the ends certainly justify the means and that you and you're enlightened circles know what's best.

The fact that marxism, communism, socialism, which ever you want to call it has yet to work anywhere as a system of government is besides the point. (And I know there are minute differences in definitions, but we all know that a no pure form of any system has yet to actually exist, and that utopian governments are nothing more than theory. I'm sure you think the past failure was because you and your comrades weren't the ones pulling the levers. Next time will be different, right?

Come out the shadows, FP.

 

[cammerfe]

The disparity between the high level executive and the line worker in the United States is appalling.

You're positively correct. And as one who spent several years working at Ford while going to school, I can tell you that, from boredom, I learned to do a dozen or more very representative jobs. (Knowing the jobs also made me more valuable to the foreman.) Learning to run each one literally took a minute or less. And these are jobs that pay $30+/hour! Such a job has been, traditionally, 'for life'.

If such a job is worth $30, running a major company is worth several hundred million.

KS

 

[Calabrio]

If such a job is worth $30, running a major company is worth several hundred million.

KS

Great point, and you're really only talking about base pay of $25-30 (plus benefits). The average UAW worker is making double that.
In contrast, the non-union plants, the ones that don't have the "job protection" that the UAW forces upon you rolleyes: ), only average $45/hr.

They had to pay Alan Mulally top dollar ($12M -not counting stock options) in order to convince him to take the position. He had been an engineer and VP at Boeing and was credited for saving that company. He was in very high demand. Taking over the reigns and responsibility of a failing company like FoMoCo isn't really a very alluring, attractive position either.

It's frustrating to hear people who no idea what they are talking about slam a guy like this, blaming him for greed, bad management, and worse yet- EVEN IMPLYING that the government could run these company BETTER.

Here's a short interview with him around the time he started with Ford:
http://money.cnn.com/2006/10/31/autos/pluggedin_taylor_mulally.fortune/index.htm

 

[shagdrum]

They had to pay Alan Mulally top dollar ($12M -not counting stock options) in order to convince him to take the position. He had been an engineer and VP at Boeing and was credited for saving that company. He was in very high demand. Taking over the reigns and responsibility of a failing company like FoMoCo isn't really a very alluring, attractive position either.

In other words...it is supply and demand. Interesting how people throw out those laws in favor of some abstract of fairness that is never clearly defined. It is very easy to claim that it is "unfair" for Mulally to get paid as much as he does, but when you put it into context of the market and what the job entails and how very few people can actually do what the job requires at that leve, it is hardly absurd.

 

[Calabrio]

Despite the fact that Mulally is now responsible for 245,000 jobs, annual revenue of 172.5 Billion dollars, and the fact that he has experience turning around Boeing that had some of the same problems, FP doesn't think he's worth the $12M (or $9M as I've recently just read) contracted salary.

Yet, she just said that the money sport stars are promised are completely reasonable. So Dwight Freeney is worth $12,000,000 a year (plus bonus) to play football but Alan Mulally isn't??

She pretends that there's just some kind of good old boy network where rich people just give their money away freely to each other... it's an absurd concept and just an example of gross, dishonest, naked class warfare rhetoric.

Oh, as far as that football player, Calabrio... he deserves his millions - he has to produce - if he doesn't guess what - the next place that acquires him will pay him far less. Unlike those CEOs who belong to some weird club where they just shuffle between jobs making more and more, while producing less and less.

 

[foxpaws]

Calabrio- I am in the auto industry... Advertising end, but in the auto industry...

And, the reason Ford is good in Europe - Volvo. Many Fords and Volvos share the same platform. Focus and S40s for instance. Actually, here in the states they now share the same platform.

Ford - they bought their innovation.

Don't keep blaming the UAW or the government all the time. How about some accountability at the top.

Once again, foreign car companies make all of our standards or easily beats them (in 1985 BMW was beating the US Government standards that wouldn't even come into effect for 10 years).

Yes, the union has hurt the American car industry - it would be foolish to say it hasn't. But, somehow BMW, Audi, Saab, and Volvo all deal with incredible union restrictions in Europe, and were able to bring a superior car to market that exceed American standards.

And Detroit is still fighting the standards for 2020 instead of actually looking ahead and trying to match them. Already Toyota and Honda are almost at the standard, with Volkswagen getting close.

And Mulally. I would think, by talking to some Ford employees recently (in Dearborn, not on the line) that he will soon be gone (the Fords aren't really happy with the new line of vehicles, or the public response to them). I have one world about Ford and Mulally - Flex. Designed and completed on his watch... it sucks.

Oh, as far as his time at Boeing, he had to deal with Airbus and that is about all as far as competition. He doesn't understand what he is up against in the automotive business. It is pretty obvious by the type of product Ford is starting to turn out.

Why do the big 3 have such a hard time getting good people at the top - I don't know - and maybe bankruptcy is a good path at this point. Clean slate, no contracts.

And, yes people do have a price point is in mind - and Volkswagens have compliant bumpers, and Toyotas have side curtain airbags, and Honda meets CAFE standards. Arbitrary standards? VW, Honda, Toyota, KIA, etc all seem to still be anxious to sell cars in the US, and gladly meet all of our 'arbitrary' standards. Those aren't the reason the big 3 fail.

Maybe - Aztec?

And I also said I think it is fine that people make big money - McDonalds CEO I gave as a specific example. I am not against people making good money if they prove that they are worth it. Muhtar Kent of Coca Cola is scheduled to pull down about 13 million - you know, CC is on track to be up almost 20% in profits this year. These men deserve their money...

I think it would be fine if the big 3 declared bankruptcy. As you said, they don't go out of business (think United Airlines) they do need to restructure, but completely, from top to bottom, not just at the bottom, where your focus would be Calabrio.

And I don't know how good of a football player Dwight Freeney is - but I pretty much can guarantee that the Colts are successful, and therefore make decisions to pay players accordingly. They take gambles, but as a whole, they know what to pay players. Their management is pretty good, and by choosing players that add to the success of their football team, they can continue to put a winning team on the field, who play by the rules, and continue to be a profitable franchise.

Somehow the big three have forgotten how to put a winning team on the field, and just cry about the rules. Toyota, Honda, VW, Kia, etc all can put a winning team on the field and they adhere to all the rules.

You insult the memory and legacy of those men by trying to associate your cause with them.

What is my cause Calabrio? You keep saying I have one. What is it - where have I stated it, just give me a little clue. I haven't condoned socialism, communism or any other economic structure than capitalism.

And that is one insult that I find exceptionally appalling. I know more about Jefferson than you will ever know I imagine. I have studied the founding fathers for years. If they would find anything abhorrent it would be your blinders, your insistence that it be your way or the highway, your biased accusations. These are men who valued opposing viewpoints, who were intellectuals and men of incredible vision. They knew the value of looking at many ideas.

You can't even read a book by Alinsky - right? You just assume that he is terrible because of what you have been force fed by right wing propaganda. The founding fathers would have found that appalling.

Or have you read him - and you just want to keep it a secret? You can't answer that one simple question from me - why?

I keep asking - before I asked - So, am I hiding behind something?

Just come out and tell me what you think my agenda is. Obviously you think I have hidden something. I think you are the one hiding something Calabrio. You just keep hiding behind the 'let them loose - let capitalists loose, let them do whatever they want - they have all shown themselves to be such great guys. You know, we don't even need rules for them.'

I am not advocating class warfare, or anything like that - once again show me where I have stated that.

You are the one that keeps coming up with accusatory statements about me that you can't back. You just run behind the curtain crying out 'communist, socialist, dishonest, disgusting'. Well as they say in the movie, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

 

[Calabrio]

And, the reason Ford is good in Europe - Volvo. Many Fords and Volvos share the same platform. Focus and S40s for instance. Actually, here in the states they now share the same platform.

That can't be it. Ford was "good" in Europe before they acquired Volvo in 1999.
But even if that were the case, that doesn't explain why they are successful and considered high value, quality cars over seas but not here in the U.S.

Don't keep blaming the UAW or the government all the time. How about some accountability at the top.

There's plenty of blame to lay at the feet of the management. But a company has a right to run itself badly. I find it more offensive when government or an outdated union undermines the success.
If there's any confusion, I think the management of these companies has been HORRIBLE in the past. But now, when they're starting to get things together, they can't get under the crushing weight of the unions and regulation.

Yes, the union has hurt the American car industry - it would be foolish to say it hasn't. But, somehow BMW, Audi, Saab, and Volvo all deal with incredible union restrictions in Europe, and were able to bring a superior car to market that exceed American standards.

It starts getting difficult to compare the European work force with the American workforce.
But would you like to discuss the British Leyland?

And Mulally. I would think, by talking to some Ford employees recently (in Dearborn, not on the line) that he will soon be gone (the Fords aren't really happy with the new line of vehicles, or the public response to them). I have one world about Ford and Mulally - Flex. Designed and completed on his watch... it sucks.

I don't know what to tell you, I haven't driven a Flex.
I've only read rave reviews in the media about it. The Ford family has been running that car company into the ground, so I'll take your word for it if you say they're trying to oust him.
Personally, I'd like to see them go private again and keep a guy Mulally at the healm. The short term stock market motivations are hurting these companies long term viability.

Oh, as far as his time at Boeing, he had to deal with Airbus and that is about all as far as competition. He doesn't understand what he is up against in the automotive business. It is pretty obvious by the type of product Ford is starting to turn out.

I disagree with that. The European line up is great. The Fiesta is going to be sold here in 2010. The Flex is held in high regard, it's better than GMs Traverse, and it's a moderately efficient, comfortable, 3 row people mover. If gas prices go back up, the diesel Fiesta gets 60 mpg and it's still fun to drive!

Now that I think about, I remember reading about the clash at Ford. Something about the old guard in the U.S. resenting Mulally's global approach. That they wanted to keep Ford U.S. distinctly separate and the design themes completely out of step with the global look.

Why do the big 3 have such a hard time getting good people at the top - I don't know - and maybe bankruptcy is a good path at this point. Clean slate, no contracts.

My guess, because it's an incredibly difficult, thankless job, that requires difficult and painful decisions (ie. Layoffs) that make people hate you.
I think the bankruptcy is the only longterm survival option.

I think it would be fine if the big 3 declared bankruptcy. As you said, they don't go out of business (think United Airlines) they do need to restructure, but completely, from top to bottom, not just at the bottom, where your focus would be Calabrio.

Of course my focus isn't exclusively on the bottom. But I think the publics desire to vilify a guy like Mulally is overly simplistic and foolish. The guy isn't necessarily part of the problem, he just got there. However, he's being portrayed as though he were the Captain of the Titanic. He took the wheel long after they hit the iceberg and started taking on water.

I will say this though- I don't want the government going ANYWHERE near the management of those companies, which I believe was your point before. If the companies can be saved, those in the industry will do it. Government is too slow to do anything, and politicians are too dumb, too slow, too stupid, and too arrogant to do anything but destroy it's ability to compete. Since government programs never end, it'll just be a more dead than alive company on perpetual life support from the government.

And I don't know how good of a football player Dwight Freeney is - but I pretty much can guarantee that the Colts are successful, and therefore make decisions to pay players accordingly.

And Mulally was successful, that is why Ford recruited him to play for their 2-15 team.

Somehow the big three have forgotten how to put a winning team on the field, and just cry about the rules. Toyota, Honda, VW, Kia, etc all can put a winning team on the field and they adhere to all the rules.

The big three have made huge mistakes, but they are undermined by legacy costs, unions, and regulation. And I'll be the first to talk about how badly managed those companies were, but you can't honestly discuss the problem is you ignore the pressures, influences, and burdens of the government and the unions on the companies.

I'd love to see the Big 3 (chrysler included only out of tradition) declare bankruptcy, reorganize, shake up management, bust the UAW, and build all their new plants in the South.
While we're at it, let's drop or eliminate the corporate tax and import the rest of the German and European car companies too.

These are men who valued opposing viewpoints, who were intellectuals and men of incredible vision. They knew the value of looking at many ideas.

And I would agree. They also would express their view point out in the open and debate it on it's merit.

I think I've been very clear about what I think.
I think I've been very clear regarding what I think it is you are doing.
I'm also confident that I'm not th only person who has identified your pattern of using deception and mistruths in order to advance your cause.

I'm not going to explain this again in every single posts, but let me add, you have presented one of the nicest "we need socialism to save capitalism" arguments I've ever heard. It's absolutely ridiculous and offensive, but you did it very well. "Capitalism is a total failure, but we need to save it." Very nicely done, FP. In most company, I bet that one usually slips right under the audiences radar.

Other than that, I can only speak of you in glowing praise.