4th Of July Tea Party

[luxuryrules]

Can you say appeal to authority?

If I read correctly, she is appealing to her own authority. A fallacy it may be, but have you been to Europe? There's a lot more than can be learned from textbooks and the interweb. Interaction with the people can reveal far more than statistics and reports ever will (this applies to everything).

Whether or not China is a superpower, I must make note of an observation made some time ago here, and that is that China (the country with a repressive government and controlled economy) is becoming more capitalistic while the US (the argument goes, anyways) is becoming more socialistic. If that is really the case, then it will only be a matter of time before China becomes the Superpower and we get swept aside by their economic might. Maybe not a superpower now, but let's see after five years.

 

[PetesSweets86]

:-D I always find Foxpaws conversations completely entertaining :-D

 

[foxpaws]

My parents went on a mission trip to Romania, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic a few years ago, and after that was over, they spent two weeks staying with a little old lady in Germany. They remarked on her repeated derisive comments about the "turkeys" in the village--immigrants from Turkey who, according to her, at least, had come to take advantage of Germany's welfare system. (That jives with the aforementioned news reports, too.)

Europe may be a lot of things, but homogeneous it ain't.

Sooner - 'little old lady'. There is a very large difference, from what I have seen, in Europe between the generations that remember WWII and the height of the cold war and younger generations. Europe is changing as their younger generations get into power. A single currency was laughed at 25 years ago, it is now realty - and a very positive one. Europe has a much longer history than the US, and now when I go there, it seems like finally, lessons from that long history of war and strife between countries are being implemented. Let's face it - Germany won't be invading Poland any time soon.

It is a little like here - I believe that the people who are the most concerned with immigration policies are older. Younger generations have grown up with kids in their classrooms speaking spanish better than english, or their friend's lunchbox had Ô mai and Banh khuc instead of peanut butter and jelly - it isn't a big issue with them.

And Pete Sweet - thank you, I try to entertain... because, you know, this really is just a car forum...

 

[shagdrum]

If I read correctly, she is appealing to her own authority. A fallacy it may be, but have you been to Europe? There's a lot more than can be learned from textbooks and the interweb. Interaction with the people can reveal far more than statistics and reports ever will (this applies to everything).

Interaction with people can reveal far more then stats, reports, textbooks, the internet, etc....in certain instances. When it comes to culture, language, things of that nature, it does offer more insight. But to give her view of European politics (specifically international politics) more weight simply because she has had interaction with some Europeans in Norway is not reasonable.

Also, politics (an even more so, international politics) are a bit of an abstract. The most you can glean from interactions with Europeans about international politics (that you couldn't get from stats, reports, textbooks, the internet, etc.) is opinion. To then apply those observed opinions to the whole of Europe with any degree of certainty is grossly irrational; a hasty generalization.

Determining a general consensus in opinion and/or outlook is much more reasonably done through stats; namely, polls. You cannot, with any degree of certianty, determine the general international political views of Europe based on interactions with a few Europeans, and/or certain cultures inside Europe.

Can you draw a conclusion about America's view of Europe in general by simply staying in say Chicago for a few days? What about Texas?

 

[foxpaws]

I did read that. It is clear that those people are in the minority. And I already commented on those views earlier in this thread, as well. Here is what I wrote in post #13:

Many elitists both here and in Europe have seen fit to try and downplay [the fact that America is the lone superpower in the world] or dishonestly change that distinction.​

I have read a number of the arguments given for the doubt of the existence of a superpower in the post cold war era. I already summarized those arguments in post #13.

Maybe you should remember what others have posted earlier in the debate, instead of "conveniently" forgetting that.

Didn't forget - but, liked to see that your article stated that there is some question on whether the whole idea of 'superpower' is a viable one as we move into the future. And that majority you state was at the end of the cold war - not now.

One has fallen, perhaps it is a precursor to the future, when the other will fall as well - Is the world happy with the current unipolar attitude the US has?

Here is a great article - A Waning Hegemony: Towards a Multipolar World Order at the Harvard College Globalization Project...

A wonderful line from this article really made me think about how the US now acts on the global stage..

To determine whether or not such recent behavior is a sign of permanent dominance or merely the frustrated actions of an ailing power trying to prove that it is still on top, it is necessary to examine the most likely challengers to American preeminence: Europe and China.​

There are also opposing viewpoints on the site - and all of them are very 'accessible' to lay people. Concise, easy-to-read, and thought provoking - if you really are interested in global power in the future it is a great site.

 

[foxpaws]

Interaction with people can reveal far more then stats, reports, textbooks, the internet, etc....in certain instances. When it comes to culture, language, things of that nature, it does offer more insight. But to give her view of European politics (specifically international politics) more weight simply because she has had interaction with some Europeans in Norway is not reasonable.

Also, politics (an even more so, international politics) are a bit of an abstract. The most you can glean from interactions with Europeans about international politics (that you couldn't get from stats, reports, textbooks, the internet, etc.) is opinion. To then apply those observed opinions to the whole of Europe with any degree of certainty is grossly irrational; a hasty generalization.

Determining a general consensus in opinion and/or outlook is much more reasonably done through stats; namely, polls. You cannot, with any degree of certianty, determine the general international political views of Europe based on interactions with a few Europeans, and/or certain cultures inside Europe.

Can you draw a conclusion about America's view of Europe in general by simply staying in say Chicago for a few days? What about Texas?

Shag, I have been going over there my entire life - I talk to my relatives at least weekly, Norwegian is my rather useless 2nd language - I own property there. I have very close ties to northern Europe.

It might not be 'book learning' but what I experience there is very much 'common sense' learning -something that you have held with much esteem in the past...

 

[Calabrio]

Shag, I have been going over there my entire life - I talk to my relatives at least weekly, Norwegian is my rather useless 2nd language - I own property there. I have very close ties to northern Europe.

It might not be 'book learning' but what I experience there is very much 'common sense' learning -something that you have held with much esteem in the past...

You're right.
And when we have a question about Norway, I'll ask you first.

However, given your familiarity there, you'd be sure to agree Norway is very much different than France. England. Italy. It's in a pretty unique position due to it's small population and rich petroleum and fishing revenue. It has much more in common with Iceland than with Sweden.


You'd also be able to tell us how Norway has been very successful privatizing many of the industries and companies that had previously been nationalized.

And most interesting, you'd also know that Norway isn't an EU country nor do they use the Euro.

 

[foxpaws]

nope - they 'use' the kroner - but the euro and the dollar are basically accepted everywhere.

Norway is quite different than France or Italy, not a lot different than Great Britain or Germany.

And we don't talk about Sweden

And they aren't foolish with their money like Iceland. What a mess... They actually don't have a lot in common with Iceland - I don't believe Iceland has the same scope of natural resources as Norway.

They are still pretty socialist - look at their retirement or health programs. Partially they can do that because they are pretty wealthy. And the banks border on socialism, I think they still do. And, although industry is for the most part very 'private' it is also pretty heavily regulated by the government.

And while they aren't 'officially' part of the EU, they might as well be... they adhere to most of the policies within the eu and they give lots of money to the eu, but getting nothing back because they aren't 'official.' And they do belong to the EEA, that is what requires them to adopt almost all of eu's policies.

It is always a battle royal at election time - it is all my aunts talk about months before the election (they are pro-eu, but that probably is because they are urban, most of rural Norway is anti-eu)

 

[luxuryrules]

Interaction with people can reveal far more then stats, reports, textbooks, the internet, etc....in certain instances.

Ok, I'll buy that qualifier. Touche. I just don't think you should be so quick to dismiss the opinion of somebody who has actually been there and experienced what life is like in the area under question.

Can you draw a conclusion about America's view of Europe in general by simply staying in say Chicago for a few days? What about Texas?

In fact, I can. I'm going to go out on a limb and say most Americans dislike Europe. I will then make the observation that almost anybody I've ever met in Texas views Europe as a bunch of pansies (yes, that is a technical term ). Now, I've only been to Chicago twice, but the people I met and associated with there were not Europe-friendly either.

I do understand your point though, it's just your example I don't buy. Well said.

 

[PetesSweets86]

Sooner - 'little old lady'. There is a very large difference, from what I have seen, in Europe between the generations that remember WWII and the height of the cold war and younger generations. Europe is changing as their younger generations get into power. A single currency was laughed at 25 years ago, it is now realty - and a very positive one. Europe has a much longer history than the US, and now when I go there, it seems like finally, lessons from that long history of war and strife between countries are being implemented. Let's face it - Germany won't be invading Poland any time soon.

It is a little like here - I believe that the people who are the most concerned with immigration policies are older. Younger generations have grown up with kids in their classrooms speaking spanish better than english, or their friend's lunchbox had Ô mai and Banh khuc instead of peanut butter and jelly - it isn't a big issue with them.

And Pete Sweet - thank you, I try to entertain... because, you know, this really is just a car forum...

your welcome.....but I do find intelligent female conversation to be quite the turn on (To be appropriate enough).....Not to mention I enjoy you schooling others with conversation on politics....I try to be as American as I can be by just turning around and walking away like nothing happened but though I know the truth and have my opinion.....no one would give a damn let alone take heath of what knowledge I can offer. (Though most ppl in here think I'm quite the opposite being I rant and rave lunacy on the LS forums :-D heheh)


4th of july Tea Party....I'd have more fun blowing things up :-D M240s are badass fireworks!