No, because the kind of Americans who showed up don't pander the government for a living and have to WORK during the week. It was held on a Saturday and people were available to attend because it was their day off.
9/12 March on Washington
- Thread starter Calabrio
- Start date
No, because the kind of Americans who showed up don't pander the government for a living and have to WORK during the week. It was held on a Saturday and people were available to attend because it was their day off.
Cal - it was a bus caravan type rally - time off really doesn't figure that much into it.
So, if you are from the midwest you leave on Thursday morning - travel until Saturday morning - park the bus for the rally - you leave the rally Sunday afternoon - travel until Tuesday afternoon to get home... r days off
Better scenario - you leave on Wednesday morning - travel until Friday morning - park the bus for the rally - you leave the rally Friday afternoon - travel until Sunday afternoon... 3 days off
Many people are more than 1 days bus travel away from the capitol...
Plus, you really want the senators and congresspeople to hear you, to see for themselves, first hand, how many people are involved in the protest - how can they do that if they aren't at work? Pro Life people know that, and they march on Washington every year - this year it was on a Thursday. How much good does it do your cause if you are standing outside the door, yelling out your agenda, and there isn't anybody home?
I appreciate your efforts to tell me what it was about, but I already know.
There was a caravan element to it, but that wasn't where the majority of the people came from. The vast majority of them came down to D.C. just for the day. They didn't participate in the early "tea parties."
But on that note, the press should add up the turn out from all the related 9/12 events that day, and the stops along the Freedomworks "Tea Party Express" caravan too.
And you know all of those logistic problems you like to reference? That's one of the reasons why despite the large volume of people, they weren't all experienced as you anticipate. Most of them didn't stay over night inside D.C. The roads and the subways weren't dealing with the regular work day commute loads. Across the board, the weekend atmosphere reduced the strain on the district.
That's what television cameras are supposed to do.
And do you really think that the 9/12 Rally went unnoticed because the Congressmen weren't at work?
Perhaps we should all follow your leftist model.
I propose we disrupt things and have a few citizens get arrested too- in the spirit you propose! Leave the area looking like a disaster site? And go into the professional activist business.
I was also making sure the other 3 people reading this knew about the bus caravan aspect too Cal...
So – you have some information on demos regarding where the people are from and how they traveled to the rally Cal? While looking for those blog photos that you requested that show the crowd at about 100,000 I read lots and lots of personal accounts of driving there from Oklahoma, meeting up with friends who were on the bus from Minnesota, how great the bus trip was from Arizona… From the personal accounts I read it seemed like an adventure to most people, involving far more than a day trip to the Capitol, certainly however, my sampling would be considered quite small. Maybe your demos show differently. I would really, really like to see that – I am trying to get that information anyway Cal, what comprises this group of people.
You were the one complaining at the lead of this thread that the MSM didn’t cover this event well… Heck, that is what the congresspeople are going to use for reference. If you want to bypass the media, get in front of the people who you want to reach-in this case – do it on a day that congress is in session
Do you think that the congresspeople really know what happened there? Heck, they may have read an account of 30,000 people showing up – they may have seen a news magazine snippet on the rally accompanied by a photo of someone in the rally carrying a sign with a swastika on it or Obama as the Joker. You really, really want them to see your protest with their own eyes – experience it firsthand Cal. You don’t want the filter of the media to change your message.
Many people drove.
Some flew in.
Others took buses- DIRECTLY to D.C.
And SOME participated in the caravan. But not most.
The "TeaParty Express" thing was a series of small rally's leading up to this. Do you think that most people followed the buses by car, or rode by bus, and attend multiple rallies?
And even the people that took chartered buses DIRECTLY to D.C. had to pay a couple hundred bucks for the ticket.
So, it really wasn't a caravan event. The people I know that went only showed up for the day. I was going to try to go, intending to leave Friday afternoon to be in D.C. by morning.
Did I request them, or did you request them and I said "find them yourself?"
Opposition research?
I'm not arguing that there is no "protest value" in disrupting the entire city, I'm just saying that it's not entirely necessary and that a strong point was made regardless. Turnout would have suffered had the event been on a weekday.
Yeah, I'm sure Charlie Rangel, Nancy Pelosi, or Orin Hatch would have been walking through the crowd to better understand the turn out..... but in this case I don't think the weekend changed the outcome of the event.
You keep projecting your movement onto these events, and in doing so, you don't seem to recognize that they are organic. They aren't well organized. Freedomworks has virtually nothing to do with, even if they did, I don't think they'd know what to do anyway.
You're points are all well taken, but they don't apply... at least not yet. Frankly, the moment Freedomworks tries to get too far outfront of these events and try to co-opt it for the GOP, they will be rejected. The left likes to point out the Dick Armey is involved, but to those involved, he has nothing to do with it. It's an organic thing that has no head.
Personally, I think the best thing about all of these 9/12, tea party type things is that it's causing traditional Americans to look around and realize that despite what they see in the media, they aren't the only person who believes in traditional, common sense American values and institutions. That the television IS NOT a mirror of American culture. And with the revelation, people become more confident to speak their mind, become educated and involved, and to invest in the process.
And those guys in congress know what's going on.
It didn't begin and end with the 9/12 rally, that was simply another show of support, another moment where people made connections and affirmed what they believed.
So, Cal - your statement that people were day tripping is based on personal interaction as well?
You were going to go - cool. Maybe next time - hopefully they will do this again - there certainly is some momentum to build on.
Actually - I asked for the video that showed crowd shots that you stated you had already posted. When that wasn't forthcoming, you said:
Find the picture from ABC or maybe some liberal troll blogger that demonstrates otherwise.
So I did... from conservative people's blogs that were at the event. Nope - I really am interested in this group - I do like some of the things they stand for, but they seem to be scattered. That is why the questions - Cal, you seem to be somewhat tuned into what they are looking for.
I disagree - a strong point wasn't made - a quick review of people at work hadn't heard a thing - my family or others I knew (about 50 people). I sort of did a little 'research' for my friend who was there, he was interested in how many people not really involved in politics had heard about the rally. None among people who aren't political savvy in my impromptu survey. Of the people I asked who are more politically savvy - people who work in campaigns or cover political events, only one out of the 10 I talked to had any idea of what I was referring to.
You see - I am very interested... or at least I get to be resource for someone else who has a vested interest.
Remember Cal - you complained about lack of media coverage - have you changed your mind - that a strong point was made? How do you think that strong point was made? Television might not mirror American culture, but it is how a majority of 'middle America' still is spoon fed it's news. I think you are so internet aware that you believe that America is as well... it is getting there - but it right now is broken down in age groups and interest groups, and the groups that this movement would/should be trying to reach out to aren't necessarily in those more 'internet savvy' groups.
And I still very much believe that if you want your play to be seen you don't put it on in front of a theater that is very sparsely populated with a couple of critics. You go directly to your audience... If you plan a rally on the steps of the capitol, you obviously want congress to pay attention - maybe you should do it on a day when congress is in session.
So, you still haven't really addressed - what next? Affirmation is nice, support is a good thing, rallying moments are great, but only if all of that leads to something. Do you think that politicians will embrace your ideals, or do you find people to back politically?
A stronger point could have been made.
But you are absolutely right, people aren't even aware that it took place. People who would have been interested in knowing about it and supporting the message of the event were completely unaware. I know people who live and work up in Northern Virginia/D.C. who weren't even aware of that it was going to take place.
And with that observation, it should be recognized that the "journalists" and the media failed the American public.
Again, it has to be noted, these are not particularly well organized.
The people involved are not accustomed to protesting, they're just so passionate about their country they feel it's critically important that they do something.
You keep viewing it from a leftist perspective. You're looking for central organization. At this point, if there was any kind of central organization or a figure head it would fail. And the media and your friends on the left would invest all of their energy to destroy the figure head.
Look at what they are trying to do to Glenn Beck. And don't tell me you're completely unaware of the despicable and evil things that they are saying about him and doing to his family right now.
So, you are right. From the way you view things, the group didn't maximize their opportunity. They should have hired an aerial photographer, they should have hired video crews and documentary makers and if nothing else released it on the internet. They should have arranged for paid chartered buses around the country and bused people in to boost the numbers.
They should have shut down the city. Inconvenienced the Congressman. They should have had noodle dancers wearing loin cloths and playing the flute. Maybe they could of had people riding around the mall on roller skates really fast intimidating hippies and beating up people wearing Che shirts.
Of course, that's not consistent with who the people are.
And the 9/12 Rally is best viewed as the endcap to the August recess.
No, I think a point was made.
I still complain about the media coverage though.
A stronger point can, and likely will, be made in the future.
No, I'm well aware of that.
But 10 years ago, I don't think an event like the TeaParty movement or the 9/12 Project would have been possible. If not for these emerging medias and new news and information sources, we both know, Obama and the Democrats would have rammed their agenda through with no credible resistance. There would be no critical examination of anything he's doing.
We've addressed this.
They made their point to congress.
But I really think the value of rally like this is the affirmation that it provides. The unity and the realization that you're not alone when you see the way government is spending money and realize that it's unsustainable. That you think both parties have failed the public. Ect. Ect.
Again, these aren't professional protesters.
And what organization that was done was not by 'activists' and CLEARLY poorly done. Freedomworks and Kibbe :q:q:q:qed up in a massive way by not having the ability to get a decent head count, but worse yet, IDIOTICALLY stating that extremely high 'estimate' to the public. That was a pitifully rookie mistake that profoundly discredited the entire event.
Why not let them do both?
If there are politicians who genuinely share the same ideals, regardless the party affiliation, and have demonstrated that, then you can support them. And with this new sense of involvement and responsibility, we'll see new people coming out of civilian and military life who step forward to run for office as well. And federalism, limited government, and common sense aren't necessarily Republican or Democrat issues.
I think this group really should embrace ‘organization’ at some point. I know it appears to be a bad word to them, but, with a little real organization this past rally could have been front page news… not with violence, or with shenanigans, but just with good old fashioned PR.
To some extent if you aren’t going to go down the ‘pink’ noodle waving route (oh please don’t, one wacked out noodle group is more than enough) you need to find another way to end up in front of people.
And although you keep putting down the way I ‘view’ things, in this arena I view things with a great deal of pragmatism. I like your values, I like the idea of incredibly peaceful protest, but, I also know that there is a message that needs to get out. The men who threw the tea into the harbor didn’t wait until a weekend when the bay was slow, and just throw a few boxes of tea over the side of the boat so it wouldn’t inconvenience anyone…
There are many groups like this who fade away and nothing gets done. Without the power of national mainstream press coverage it will be hard to increase momentum. They are probably maxing out their current mode of exposure – they need to go MSM.
Well, at least they probably have learned the value of accurate head count.
As I kept saying 100,000 is a wonderful number – I could have done a ton with a number like that – especially with the endearing stories of how people got there, how they were all there because they spent their money and their time to make their voices heard. But now, with the 1 to 2 million number out there so much – a laughable number – you are right, it has discredited much of the event. I wouldn’t say entirely though. There is a lot to build on, and someone needs to take the hit – and it should be Kibbe. He needs to state the real number – 100,000 (or so), and be proud of that number.
Oh, I do wonder how many will end up running for public office. It isn’t pretty, it is a disgusting business. The group seems to like to take the ‘high road’, an admirable thing. Politics, almost always, finds the lowest, most filthy, degrading, disgusting path it can find. And although everyone starts out saying they will keep to the ‘high road’ they often fall off that road. Someone falls behind in the polls, gets desperate, and starts to sling sh!t…
To some extent if you aren’t going to go down the ‘pink’ noodle waving route (oh please don’t, one wacked out noodle group is more than enough) you need to find another way to end up in front of people.
And although you keep putting down the way I ‘view’ things, in this arena I view things with a great deal of pragmatism. I like your values, I like the idea of incredibly peaceful protest, but, I also know that there is a message that needs to get out. The men who threw the tea into the harbor didn’t wait until a weekend when the bay was slow, and just throw a few boxes of tea over the side of the boat so it wouldn’t inconvenience anyone…
There are many groups like this who fade away and nothing gets done. Without the power of national mainstream press coverage it will be hard to increase momentum. They are probably maxing out their current mode of exposure – they need to go MSM.
Well, at least they probably have learned the value of accurate head count.
As I kept saying 100,000 is a wonderful number – I could have done a ton with a number like that – especially with the endearing stories of how people got there, how they were all there because they spent their money and their time to make their voices heard. But now, with the 1 to 2 million number out there so much – a laughable number – you are right, it has discredited much of the event. I wouldn’t say entirely though. There is a lot to build on, and someone needs to take the hit – and it should be Kibbe. He needs to state the real number – 100,000 (or so), and be proud of that number. Oh, I do wonder how many will end up running for public office. It isn’t pretty, it is a disgusting business. The group seems to like to take the ‘high road’, an admirable thing. Politics, almost always, finds the lowest, most filthy, degrading, disgusting path it can find. And although everyone starts out saying they will keep to the ‘high road’ they often fall off that road. Someone falls behind in the polls, gets desperate, and starts to sling sh!t…
I don't think so. The legacy media wouldn't have done it, regardless how effectively the press releases were written. UNLESS the front page coverage was for a negative.
This was the first event of it's kind. It was very successful. Everyone there, and all following it, found it inspiring, and- while you don't think they maximized the opportunity, they accomplished something.
Olympia Snow pulls support of health care bill
I'm not necessarily putting them down in this thread, I'm simply staying that you're perspective on this is different. You are trying to apply a model to the event that doesn't fit well.
The strengths of that loosely collected group are also, arguably, their political weakness
And is that the kind of front page attention any kind of "right-wing" or "anti-big government" movement needs in this media environment??
How the panic over right-wing violence is being used to marginalize peaceful dissent
And I'd argue that the MSM will fade away or be forced to take notice before this collection of Americans fades away.
Absolutely. I don't know if that was because of incompetence or a naggy fear of low turn out.Well, at least they probably have learned the value of accurate head count.
And if it were 70-100k, you're absolutely right.
But the Democrats tried to artificial raise expectations the day before with their talk of 2 million turn out, and then Kibbe screwed up on stage, completely shifting the focus of the event and undermining it.
You don't do it on a weekend - that is your first access to the press. They had 2 congresspeople speak at the event - congresspeople love to speak at things like this - especially if they can do it on their lunch break. They could have had the big boys out there, if their scheduling was better. MSM likes the big boys...
Snowe doesn't state anything about the protesters... You are really assuming a lot here. I would probably go with local sentiment in her home state of Maine rather than looking at her paying any attention to the protest this past weekend. They could be the same group - but, even that is stretching it.
Unfortunately they are, at some point, going to need some political strength if they want to accomplish their goals...
Yes. I would tell the organization to get some balls. The 'media' of the day was controlled by England - that changed. This tea party group has the same type of 'underground' media that the patriots did, and yet the patriots knew they needed more exposure. It wasn't pretty - but it did get the word out there. The war protests of the 60s were first vilified in the press - it changed. The Vietnam War protesters had the underground press - but, it wasn't enough. They knew that.
But when? Would you be happy to hold 'as is' for 8 more years? Things will be so incredibly different in 8 years that you won't recognize the political landscape. You want change- you affect that change as soon as possible. You need to change it now. If the elections in 2010 in anyway affirm the current political direction - you are toast...
Sorry - old trick. And lack of knowledge of the trick doesn't forgive the organizers for falling for it. This group is about truth. Tell the truth. I happen to know that they had the truth. They may have be reluctant to believe it - but, if nothing else, you then hold off if you have 2 conflicting reports. No report is better than a report that is ridiculously bad.
MonsterMark
Dedicated LVC Member
You missed your calling. You should be a community organizer for ACORN, ooops, I mean, COI.
I would be a terrible community organizer - I have not the patience...
Plus - I do like playing with the big boys - slime and all...
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
Mick Jagger
Dedicated LVC Member
Norman Thomas was wrong.
The American people, led by great men like Teddy Roosevelt, were smart enough to understand that unfettered laissez faire capitalism could be harnessed and regulated, progressive labor reforms could be adopted and a social safety net could established without abolishing private property or establishing government ownership of the means of production.
You right wing nut jobbers are intellectually incapable of understanding the concept of the "middle way" forged by the Progressives beginning in the 1870's.
Wrong again, Jagger-bot.
Your post is contradictory as well.
1. We aren't socialist yet, just on that path.
2. And the Thomas quote is confirmed, those progressive have not adopted socialism in one great sweep, but in tiny, incremental steps and through indoctrination of children.
We are at the point of no return though.
Your post is contradictory as well.
1. We aren't socialist yet, just on that path.
2. And the Thomas quote is confirmed, those progressive have not adopted socialism in one great sweep, but in tiny, incremental steps and through indoctrination of children.
We are at the point of no return though.
Mick Jagger
Dedicated LVC Member
Why don't I see the people marching in the streets demanding that private property be abolished.
Because the vast majority of the population don't support the idea of abolishing private property. And the only way to impose that kind of agenda is to do it incrementally, and to indoctrinate the youth before they know any better- for example, in the video I posted and you applauded in another thread.
Do you think that the current administration is aggressively moving to ban the possession of private property?
Do you Cal? I thought you had started to swing to the train of thought that this administration was fascist, not socialist. Lots of private property and private business opportunity in fascism.
Anytime you attempt to define an actual political force in utopian terms, you open yourself for failure, and you give the political force wiggle room.
"I'm (or they're) not fascist, I'm for this.... but I'm(they're) not socialist because I'm for this... and I'm (they're) capitalist because this, but just not all of that or then...."
I think this administration/government is interested in centralizing power and limiting liberty.
Mick Jagger
Dedicated LVC Member
That would seem to disprove your right wing nut job view that the socialist/progressive reforms we've adopted since the 1870's are incompatible with the institutions of private property and private owner ship of the means of production.
Nope. Do you?
Dude, you right wing nut jobbers have been spewing that crap for over a century. You need some new material.
I think you're interested in centralizing power and limiting liberty, or perhaps I should say you're being duped by those interested in centralizing power and limiting liberty. You will never have any power, dude. If it weren't for the socialist and progressives who fought for economic reform, you'd be working twelve hours a day in one of my factories for five cents an hour.
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No that's not true.
Nor does that mean that the progressive institutions that were put in place have been successful.
No, you need some consistancy.
You argue that we've been "socialist" since 1870, then deny that many of these progressive measures have been incrementally applied over that time period?
You're repeating yourself.
You're still wrong, but you're also still repeating yourself.
If you want to give examples, argue your point, or engage in conversation, do so.
Otherwise, just focus your spam on another message board or you'll be treated accordingly.
So, you are going to stop labeling this administration with terms such as socialist?
I will continue to use the term socialist to describe some of the actions and policies of the administration.
FYI: fascism is a form of socialism. They share most of the same philosophical underpinnings. The only real difference is in the implementation of those philosophical views; basically, superficial differences from an ideological point of view (with certain notable exceptions).
Fascism is basically the merging of the superficial elements of nationalism with the substantive elements of socialism (much like modern liberalism merges the superficial elements of classic liberalism with the substantive elements of socialism). Under Fascism, businesses and the state are only superficially separate.
Hitler's political party was originally called the National Socialist German Workers' Party. In fact the term Nazi stems from the German word for National Socialist (Nationalsozialist).
In fact, for many orthodox Marxists, Fascism was considered a heresy of Marxist orthodoxy.