97 Conti Wont Start (again!?!)

[gdubya]

Even though it has 180K miles, I really like this car. However, it seems like it is always finicky about starting. Had a bad Fuel Pressure regulator which I fixed, a dying alternator I had a mechanic fix, but now again intermittently won't start and the mechanic says they have no idea why and can't fix if it's so intermittent. (It cranks over fine) Every time it has done this, it has either started after many many tries waiting a few minutes between, or I have come back to the car several hours later or overnight and it has started right up on the first try. It has only not started after sitting either overnight, or during an entire work day. When it won't start, I have tried jump starting and it will not start. I also put the battery on the tender and it would not start, so I am pretty sure the alternator or batery are no longer the cause. When I have had it not start, I have also checked the fuel pressure and had fuel squirt out the schraeder valve (although I have no pressure gauge to know what pressure is).

The only things in common I have found when it will not start (probably irrelevant) is that it has been cold and almost always wet. Sometime, I have gone back the next morning when it was even colder and had it fire right up on teh first crank. It has also seemed to happen shortly after getting gas (like next morning) after a tank was run to the low fuel warning.

When I was having trouble with the FPR, before I replaced that I did clean the MAF with the special MAF cleaner, and got some weird codes after that (P0302, #2 cyl misfire, P0171 and P0174 Bank #1 sensor #1 & #2 lean condition) but after disconnecting battery 2x these cleared and have not come back.

Not sure if maybe the MAF sensor is just altogether bad, or maybe another sensor that wouldn't throw a SES light. The only other symptom I have noticed is that my idle seems to occasionally rev a little bit higher at a stop light, but it seems to only do this when the heat is on. If I turn climate control off, that will stop the higher revs at idle so I am suspicious of a slight vacuum leak.

Any ideas appreciated, I really don't have the $ to have a mechanic go on a fishing expedition on this one.

 

[continental randy]

Go to the auto parts store and buy a can of carburetor cleaner. When this thing wont start take the air cleaner snorkel off at the top of throttle body. Give a good 3 to 5 second blast of carb cleaner right down into the intake. Hook the snorkel back up. If it starts up and dies you have a fuel problem. If it still does not start then you have ignition problem. If you dont narrow it down fuel or ignition first your going to waste alot of time chasing your tail.

 

[bradyelich]

check your crank position sensor plug and the camshaft position sensor plugs. The sensors don't go bad just the wiring attaching them do.

 

[gdubya]

Haven't been driving it anytime I have the kids or might really need to get back so hadn't had it not start until last night. Fuel pressure seemed good at the schraeder valve, so I am really pretty confident it is not fuel related. I unplugged some sensors one at a time and tried to start, when I got to the MAF it seemed like the connector might have been loose and when I plugged it back in and made sure it snapped together nicely she acted like it was a little flooded but fired right up. Drove it several trips last night and always started up super fast. It's wet today, so I drove it to work to see if it will be good in the PM, since wet cold days have historically been when it worn't start. I am thinking I may need to replace that connector wire if it can come loose or have a bad connection.

Thanks for the tip Brad, I'll look at those connectors as well.

I'm hoping this will keep it starting reliably and I can start to figure out what I think is a vacuum leak that seems to appear when the climate control is on.

 

[gdubya]

Hit the junkyard today and found a VERY clean looking MAF so I took the whole housing and wiring with it. When I looked at another air filter clamp, I realized mine had been broken (which is why it never seemed to clamp tight) and got a new one. Grabbed a new clean-looking IAT sensor (mine looked a little dirty) as well just for good measure, and a door trim piece and a new cruise control button to replace my broken one. $35 out the door, I'm feeling good. Swapped out the sensors, and she fired right up, and seemed to idle well. Hoping she'll be good to go, and maybe I don't even have a vacuum leak after all.

 

[bradyelich]

My car always started and smells like it is flooded but i replaced wires, plugs and coils and it seems alot better. My car had original plugs and wires with 277000km on it. I did remove and re-gap the plugs once but did not help. I also found one of the variable intake set screws fell out and found it on the block righ under where it should have been and re-installed it. my car is way better and my wife agrees. A vacuum leak should not stop the car from starting - but it should throw a code - all though mine did not. I do see on my car I have two vacuum hoses that are in real bad shape but I can not reach both ends to replace them. I also have a T-connector that is in bad shape and will try to replace it.

 

[gdubya]

Well, wouldn't start again Sunday AM after sitting all night. I tried unplugging and replugging IAT, TPS, MAF, IAC, all to no avail. Just for kicks I unhooked the battery for 15mins, reconnected and it sputtered a bit (again acting like almost flooded) and then fired right up and ran OK the rest of the day and this AM. What the heck would resetting by disconnecting the battery change? Could my PCM be going bad, or the anti-theft mistakenly blocking ignition?

Next time this happens, hopefully I will be in a position to test spark at the plug.

BTW, I did replace plugs (motorcraft OEM part), wires, fuel filter, and PCV less than 3k miles ago.

 

[bradyelich]

PCM - is powertrain control module
EEC - is electronic engine control - this is where you get your OBDII codes from

disconnecting battery will clear codes and reset computer not sure what else it would do. Did you check O2 sensors on exhaust? No engine light on?

 

[gdubya]

PCM - is powertrain control module
EEC - is electronic engine control - this is where you get your OBDII codes from

disconnecting battery will clear codes and reset computer not sure what else it would do. Did you check O2 sensors on exhaust? No engine light on?

Can PCM or EEC be moderately easily replaced if they are the problem?

I have no SES light on.

I have not checked O2 sensors, never had a reason to. I also was not able to get under there to check wiring at the CKP sensor as recommened previously. I am not exactly sure where it (or the O2 sensors) but I assume I can find out and at least pull a spare from the junkyard for troubleshooting.

 

[bradyelich]

Thinking some more about my car and yours. Mine should have thrown 8 misfire codes but it did not, yet all the wires and plugs were bad and it pulsed for 5 years that I had it and obviously for its previous owner. Your car should be throwing a code if it is anything but a bad connection on crank position sensor and/or camshaft position sensor, but once agin, it is not. Only a circuit can throw a code, a broken mechanical part can not throw a code. Only a broken mechanical part can prevent your car from starting without throwing a code - like a fuel pump.

How did you test your fuel pressure? I hoped you used the proper guage and got a proper reading. The fuel pressure regulators can wear out - search this forum for info.

Did you read your computer codes regardless of the SES on or not? Maybe you should and maybe you can get a reader that monitors your sensors while it is running and see it they are at least all coming online when they meet their parameters.

O2 sensors on exhaust pipe before and after catalytic converters.

They dont replace computers anymore, they install a new program. If the EEC was bad, your car would not go anywhere.

Did you check Idle Air Control (IAC) mine was bad for long time before it threw a code and I replaced it. One can clean the IAC and reinstall as long as it is not stuck.

hope you find something and can let us know what.

 

[gdubya]

Since I replaced the MAF/IAT my HWY mileage is up several MPG, but still gave me a couple of hard cold starts. Did something different that makes me think Brad is on the right track with the IAC. When it wouldn't start, I accidentally touched the accelerator and it started right up. I thought it might be coincidence, but then next time it wouldn't start first or second crank then I again tapped the gas on the next try and it fired right up.

Gonna swap IAC next chance I get, then maybe TPS if that doesn't do it. Not sure if I will get new parts or hit the junkyard again and cross my fingers.

 

[gdubya]

Had the classic no-start symptom on Sunday. Car had sat all night and wouldn't start on a rainy morning. Tried all manner of throttle positions, disco
d battery, nothing. Got on the ground and felt under and wiggled the wiring harness I can see by the passenger wheel well where I presume the CKP (or CMP maybe) to be, and then it started right up. So, I think I have the bad CKP (or CMP maybe) connector that some have talked about and that is my starting issue. Idle speed issue is probably a separate issue and possibly unrelated.

Any guides to replacing CKP or connector? Should I go ahead and replace both (nolt expensive) while I am there? My chiltons is terrible and doesn't show the location of the sensor on a conti, only on a TC where the engine isn't turned the same way.

 

[bradyelich]

I tried to show you the pic from the service manual.

 

[ratdog442]

I had a Ford Taurus with a similiar problem which I wound up trading in...the only thing I could figure out was when it was parked on my sloping driveway on occasion it would crank but no start...it led me to believe it was the fuel pump...which reminds me I had a Turbocoupe Thunderbird which had a intermitten fuel pump issue which had the habit of going out while I was driving...not sure if this helps...I would look at the fuel pump considering the mileage on the car.