Abortion distortion

[Calabrio]

So, people who are pro choice don't love liberty Cal? You have lost me here...

That's fine. I'm not going anywhere with you.

The people who are opposed to the politically disastrous direction this country is being taken are bogged down defensively arguing positions dishonestly framed by the progressive left. That they don't support vigilante justice. That they don't have anything to do with an octogenarian Nazi. And in trying to defend and distance themselves, they reinforce the association to the casual viewer.

 

[foxpaws]

That's fine. I'm not going anywhere with you.

The people who are opposed to the politically disastrous direction this country is being taken are bogged down defensively arguing positions dishonestly framed by the progressive left. That they don't support vigilante justice. That they don't have anything to do with an octogenarian Nazi. And in trying to defend and distance themselves, they reinforce the association to the casual viewer.

So, cal - do you think pro choice people don't love liberty?

 

[Calabrio]

So, cal - do you think pro choice people don't love liberty?

I know that there are people who think abortion should be legal who embrace and support liberty. I also know people who are pro-choice that have red hair. But thanks for asking.

 

[foxpaws]

So, do you think that this is one of those instances (the defensive attitude that the pro-lifers are showing) where the right is being defined by the issue, rather than defining the issue? That seems to be a bad habit they are getting into...

Even in the Palin/Letterman discussion, she is allowing herself to be defined by the issue, isn't she?

 

[Calabrio]

So, do you think that this is one of those instances (the defensive attitude that the pro-lifers are showing) where the right is being defined by the issue, rather than defining the issue? That seems to be a bad habit they are getting into...

It's not necessarily a habit, but it is a response.
The result of the media, with it's increasingly undeniable political and social agenda, having the biggest megaphone.

Even in the Palin/Letterman discussion, she is allowing herself to be defined by the issue, isn't she?

No, Palin has responded on the offensive.
She isn't saying, "My daughter isn't sleeping with A Rod." She's going after Letterman for being the bitter, boring, in-crowd, partisan, NY elitist liberal snob that he has become in recent years.

Again, it's a very difficult position to be in when you're asking for the people who are doing the attacking to present you're "side" fairly.

 

[Calabrio]

So, do you think that this is one of those instances (the defensive attitude that the pro-lifers are showing) where the right is being defined by the issue, rather than defining the issue? That seems to be a bad habit they are getting into...

It's not necessarily a habit, but it is a response.
The result of the media, with it's increasingly undeniable political and social agenda, having the biggest megaphone.

Even in the Palin/Letterman discussion, she is allowing herself to be defined by the issue, isn't she?

No, Palin has responded on the offensive.
She isn't saying, "My daughter isn't sleeping with A Rod."
She's really not even acknowledging the angry, sexist "slutty flight attendant" joke direct at her.. (note the hypocritical silence of the feminists on this issue.)

She's going after Letterman for being the bitter, boring, in-crowd, partisan, NY elitist liberal snob that he has become in recent years.

Again, it's a very difficult position to be in when you're asking for the people who are doing the attacking to present you're "side" fairly.

 

[foxpaws]

It's not necessarily a habit, but it is a response.
The result of the media, with it's increasingly undeniable political and social agenda, having the biggest megaphone.

But, if you know how - you can lead the media - Reagan was a master of it - Newt, actually, used to be pretty good. It certainly is very possible to respond to an issue and than take ownership of it...

No, Palin has responded on the offensive.
She isn't saying, "My daughter isn't sleeping with A Rod."
She's really not even acknowledging the angry, sexist "slutty flight attendant" joke direct at her.. (note the hypocritical silence of the feminists on this issue.)

By responding at all to a 'joke' she was from the start on the defensive. This was a non-issue until she added credibility to it. A simple 'no comment' is the way to take ownership of something that was said as a joke. Bad taste, no taste, whatever the critique of the joke is - it is still perceived as a joke, and when you get defensive about a joke you will always lose. I think the feminists may have realized that with the slutty flight attendant part of the top 10 list... You aren't going to win, so just don't say anything.

 

[fossten]

Would the Tiller killer have acted without the highly promoted actions of the pro-life/right to life movements? That's the question.

The inability of another person to prove your hypothetical does not grant you proof for your premise.

 

[fossten]

But, if you know how - you can lead the media - Reagan was a master of it - Newt, actually, used to be pretty good. It certainly is very possible to respond to an issue and than take ownership of it...

Do you even read your own posts before you hit 'submit?' That's the most ludicrous, laughable thing I've ever heard.

The media HATED Reagan, the media tried to DESTROY Reagan and Gingrich. The fact that Reagan was effective DESPITE the media's attempts is irrelevant. You cannot begin to equate the soft soap, fellatious treatment that Obama is receiving with what they did to Reagan.

 

[foxpaws]

Do you even read your own posts before you hit 'submit?' That's the most ludicrous, laughable thing I've ever heard.

The media HATED Reagan, the media tried to DESTROY Reagan and Gingrich. The fact that Reagan was effective DESPITE the media's attempts is irrelevant. You cannot begin to equate the soft soap, fellatious treatment that Obama is receiving with what they did to Reagan.

Really? I was awake in the 80s - were you Foss? I was working politics in the 80s - were you Foss? Or were you already in this paranoid state that you currently reside in?

Reagan was a master at manipulating the media - his PR dept in the white house is the model that is still used to this day, because it was so effective.

From The Nation...

Ronald Reagan lived a charmed life in many respects, none more so than in his relationship with the news media. Indeed, his accomplishments as President are impossible to understand without recognizing the way he and his advisers turned the media, especially television, into a national megaphone for his policies. Most obituaries of Reagan have noted the decisive role that public relations played in his White House, and it's true that the former actor's PR apparatus pioneered or perfected many of the news-management techniques now taken for granted by press and public alike. The media's own complicity in the process has generally gone unmentioned, however, perhaps because it is journalists who write the obituaries. Although the Reagan White House did not shrink from censoring news, most famously during the 1983 invasion of Grenada, the taming of the media during the Reagan years was mostly self-inflicted.

Reagan's own advisers admitted as much. Reagan was called the Teflon President because blame never stuck to him, an outcome reporters attributed to his sunny personality. But David Gergen, the former White House communications director, told me, "A lot of the Teflon came because the press was holding back. I don't think they wanted to go after him that toughly." Ben Bradlee, former executive editor of the Washington Post, agreed: "We have been kinder to President Reagan than any President...since I've been at the Post."
<snip>

 

[Calabrio]

You're post lacks a lot of historic context.

Reagan had a good relationship with some members of the press, yet they still despised his policies and worked very hard to undermine his agenda.

Some of the reluctance associated with "nailing him" came from the fact that the Reagan, due to his ability to go OVER the media, had the overwhelming support of the country behind him.

Reagan was depicted by the press as a well-intentioned, bumbling idiot by the press. An ignorant "actor" who had simply fooled the public into voting for him. A man who slept all day, was itching to bring the world into nuclear war, who was responsible for the homeless in America, and hated black people.

You have incredible nerve, selective memory, or a sheer lack of character, to present history as anything to the contrary. Or to equate the fawning coverage that the current administration is receiving to that of the 1980s.

 

[fossten]

Really? I was awake in the 80s - were you Foss? I was working politics in the 80s - were you Foss? Or were you already in this paranoid state that you currently reside in?

Appeal to authority followed by ad hominem and finished off by a weak insult. Yawn.

Reagan was a master at manipulating the media - his PR dept in the white house is the model that is still used to this day, because it was so effective.

From The Nation...

Ronald Reagan lived a charmed life in many respects, none more so than in his relationship with the news media. Indeed, his accomplishments as President are impossible to understand without recognizing the way he and his advisers turned the media, especially television, into a national megaphone for his policies. Most obituaries of Reagan have noted the decisive role that public relations played in his White House, and it's true that the former actor's PR apparatus pioneered or perfected many of the news-management techniques now taken for granted by press and public alike. The media's own complicity in the process has generally gone unmentioned, however, perhaps because it is journalists who write the obituaries. Although the Reagan White House did not shrink from censoring news, most famously during the 1983 invasion of Grenada, the taming of the media during the Reagan years was mostly self-inflicted.

Reagan's own advisers admitted as much. Reagan was called the Teflon President because blame never stuck to him, an outcome reporters attributed to his sunny personality. But David Gergen, the former White House communications director, told me, "A lot of the Teflon came because the press was holding back. I don't think they wanted to go after him that toughly." Ben Bradlee, former executive editor of the Washington Post, agreed: "We have been kinder to President Reagan than any President...since I've been at the Post."
<snip>

Good objective, non editorial source, especially when quoting David Rodham Gergen. /sarc

What a joke, using a liberal rag as an historical 'fact' piece.

Ever hear of Iran/Contra? Nah, the media gently covered that up for Reagan.

 

[foxpaws]

Well Foss, Gergen's creds are pretty darn good... (And if you remember, I do have this odd 'father image' crush on him... )

White House adviser to Presidents Nixon, Ford, Reagan and Clinton. He was Reagan's Communication lead...

And you know - you don't get the nickname 'Teflon President' for no reason whatsoever...

Cal - Reagan was a master of the media - as he used it, usually going around the news sources and appealing directly to the American people. As you stated it 'going OVER the media.' It actually was 'going over the PRESS'. You don't think that isn't working the media? You are pretty naive than in understanding how media, all media, works. Media isn't just the hard nosed news venues, or 'press' in fact, that is very little of the media - and Reagan and his team knew that. His fireside chats were brilliant. A complete end around the hard nosed news media and a direct, entertainment type appeal, to the populace. Using the media in a whole different way. He made it so he became the story - he was the one that the media wanted access to, and it was the entire media, not just the news media... Nice soft stories about his and Nancy's romance - the redecorating of the white house - the ranch - the PR team made sure to get Reagan's 'entertainment' value out front, everyday.

He manipulated the media by not bending to the network news. He was great at speaking to the people, and his PR people were very good at finding avenues where he wasn't filtered by the network news, but instead found media avenues that were a more direct link. And he did it in an age before Rush and Fox News - Reagan and his PR people were incredibly good. Heck, books have been written about it - one of the best - On Bended Knee: The Press and the Reagan Presidency, or for a good review of past presidents - Eyewitness to Power. If you work campaigns and politics, the Reagan model on how to use the media is something you need to study.

I am not comparing this administration to Reagan's, Cal, so you can 'can' your little tirade regarding that. If you look I was trying to show how people can use the media to their advantage if they know how. Reagan knew how. Newt knew it as well - if he can get back on track - and remember to be on the offensive (which is what it is looking like he is doing), chose his media avenues to his advantage, he can work the media to his advantage as well.

 

[fossten]

Well Foss, Gergen's creds are pretty darn good... (And if you remember, I do have this odd 'father image' crush on him... )White House adviser to Presidents Nixon, Ford, Reagan and Clinton. He was Reagan's Communication lead...

There goes your credibility already.

And you know - you don't get the nickname 'Teflon President' for no reason whatsoever...

That nickname was given to him by Patsy Schroeder, a Democrat Congresswoman - in an attempt to smear him during Iran Contra.

It was also given to Bill Clinton, who was also well known as Slick Willie and was far more deserving of the 'teflon' term. Dinesh D'Souza has an interesting article delving into the differences between the two presidents regarding the term.

Here's a snippet:

Yet we might explore the question further by asking: Why did Reagan do it? Bill Clinton's scandals--Whitewater, Travelgate, Filegate, Paula Jones, the campaign-fund-raising shenanigans--have all involved self-aggrandizement and the pursuit of personal gain. Reagan, by contrast, was rendered gullible because he identified with the suffering of the hostages and their families. My point is that while the media speculate about "Teflon Bill" and "Teflon Ron," there is a world of difference in the motives that guided the two men into the scandals that plagued their administrations.