All 6 States vote to raise minimum wage

[Joeychgo]

Um...as Moderator, it's your job to make sure everything is fair on the board. You are not, however, qualified to diagnose me. You are definitely not objective here, and that means that YOU are over the top for attempting to censor me. If you don't like something I say, you are perfectly free to edit it.

1. As OWNER of the board - my job is to keep the board running and growing so that it can continue to be a place for the 8000+ members we have.

2. I abhor editing / censoring posts. I do it on occasion when I feel its necessary, but its rare. I would expect you, as the intelligent and educated man that you are, to behave in such a manner that I wouldnt even consider editing your posts. Beyond that, I would expect you to be smart enough that you'll get farther with good debating then spewing insults.

3. My only bias is for the benefit of the forum and its members. It has nothing to do with republican or democrat. 90% of the insults I ahve seen hurled at you were in response to you insulting first. It all needs to stop. PERIOD. If you cant debate without tossing insults, then dont debate. I want your insight and your perspective, but the issues get lost when the insults start flying.

 

[TheDude]

"At-ti-ca! At-ti-ca! At-ti-ca! At-ti-ca! At-ti-ca!!!"

 

[fossten]

1. As OWNER of the board - my job is to keep the board running and growing so that it can continue to be a place for the 8000+ members we have.

2. I abhor editing / censoring posts. I do it on occasion when I feel its necessary, but its rare. I would expect you, as the intelligent and educated man that you are, to behave in such a manner that I wouldnt even consider editing your posts. Beyond that, I would expect you to be smart enough that you'll get farther with good debating then spewing insults.

3. My only bias is for the benefit of the forum and its members. It has nothing to do with republican or democrat. 90% of the insults I ahve seen hurled at you were in response to you insulting first. It all needs to stop. PERIOD. If you cant debate without tossing insults, then dont debate. I want your insight and your perspective, but the issues get lost when the insults start flying.

So I guess you don't think Johnny is educated and smart enough to behave in such a manner? I guess you think he's a blithering idiot, eh?

If you want to appear fair, don't obliquely refer to insults in general. If you're going to chastise me, you need to personally chastise everyone else who "tosses insults." I don't see you doing that. You have singled me out. Personally I don't really care what you think about me. But you are going to continue getting responses on this subject until you start acting like a fair individual and not like an apologist for your liberal buddies.

The fact is that Johnny insulted Biglou and I came to his defense. Obviously you are coming to Johnny's defense while ignoring his foibles. That's fine, but you do it as a poster and not as a moderator.

As far as 90%, you are WRONG about that and if I decided to take the time to count up and quote all the insults spewed on this board and take a ratio, I could prove it. But I'm sure you recognize, as an intelligent man, that you have ONCE AGAIN EXAGGERATED the issue.

I REPEAT: Do NOT command me to knock off anything that you aren't commanding anyone else both PUBLICLY and PERSONALLY to do.

 

[mespock]

Who the hell are you, Mespock? Who the hell are YOU to tell somebody to take a pay cut just so somebody can be GIVEN some more money? .

I am the same person you have said in many of your post to take a pay cut the support of the Bush policies the middle class American.

With every breath you take... with just your attitude it tells all Americans to take a pay cut... oh except those who feel they are that much better than everyone else.. Fossten!!... That those like you feel you can Piss on everyone because they like you only care about themselves... and all those under them are just a bunch of $hit... they like you don't care about America just their pocket book and when it comes down to it.. and you would forsake this country when you are through with the rape of the average American.

 

[fossten]

1. As OWNER of the board - my job is to keep the board running and growing so that it can continue to be a place for the 8000+ members we have.

Well, I don't hold out high hopes if you continue using those people skills to bully people you don't like.

 

[mespock]

Well, I don't hold out high hopes if you continue using those people skills to bully people you don't like.

99% of them membership doesn't come to this forum...

Most have no clue to insults that go on in this forum.. They are here for their cars.. not just to whine about politics.

 

[TheDude]

I am the same person you have said in many of your post to take a pay cut the support of the Bush policies the middle class American.

With every breath you take... with just your attitude it tells all Americans to take a pay cut... oh except those who feel they are that much better than everyone else.. Fossten!!... That those like you feel you can Piss on everyone because they like you only care about themselves... and all those under them are just a bunch of $hit... they like you don't care about America just their pocket book and when it comes down to it.. and you would forsake this country when you are through with the rape of the average American.

Not to wedge myself between you and Fossten, but speaking of pocket books... It has been said before that people ultimately vote according to their own pocket book...

 

[fossten]

I am the same person you have said in many of your post to take a pay cut the support of the Bush policies the middle class American.

With every breath you take... with just your attitude it tells all Americans to take a pay cut... oh except those who feel they are that much better than everyone else.. Fossten!!... That those like you feel you can Piss on everyone because they like you only care about themselves... and all those under them are just a bunch of $hit... they like you don't care about America just their pocket book and when it comes down to it.. and you would forsake this country when you are through with the rape of the average American.

Dude, no offense, but your rant is really incoherent and hard to understand.

 

[pbslmo]

Who the hell are you, Mespock? Who the hell are YOU to tell somebody to take a pay cut just so somebody can be GIVEN some more money? You know what that is? That's socialism. I've got a good idea, Mr. Elitist: Why don't YOU give up some of your pay and GIVE it to the needy, instead of DEMANDING that others do so? Why don't you worry about yourself instead of preaching your hypocritical views to other people?

While you're telling people what to do with their money, why don't you lecture Johnny about driving a $45,000 Lincoln LS? Why don't you tell him he should sell it and give the money to the poor? After all, how dare he drive around in an expensive car while people are driving beaters making minimum wage? Is it going to put you in poverty to sell your Mark and drive a beater as well? Hmmm?

See, you Democrats are nothing but first-class hypocrites. You will harp all day long about how greedy and selfish the Republicans are, and demand that everybody else's money is given to "those less fortunate," but if it comes to your own personal fortune, why, that's unacceptable.

Wow what a mouthful. I'm going out on a limb here, because I'll probalbly be called and Idiot by you, Fossten. But for your information some of us purchased our Lincolns second or third hand because we could not afford a brand new one at $45,000. Some of us Democats do work at jobs that benifit others of lesser income. I work for a non-for-profit that provides housing for the Mentally Disabled. I do donate my hard earned money to charities. Especially to foundations for spinal cord research!( As I have a spinal cord injury), Our midset differs from yours, (which is evident in your rantings).

I don't know what political affiliation Bill Gates is, but for the money he earns, he donates a sizeable chunk. What have you done lately? Try some self reflecting sole searching. Please.

 

[mespock]

Dude, no offense, but your rant is really incoherent and hard to understand.

That is understandable but I doubt it... you got the point!

 

[pepperman]

As a matter of fact, I CAN prove it. My company just outsourced several dozen jobs to India because we can't afford to pay workers here. That was the only choice left to it because raising prices was not an option. Fortunately my job is safe because I'm one of the best producers in the company.

I'll use an example that hits everybody close to home. Who has min wage jobs? McDonald's? So if every single worker working for McD's now is going to make more per hour, the company is in danger of losing profits. Do you really think that the franchise owner is going to let his income go down the tubes? Not hardly. He'll either raise prices or sell out.

If he sells out, the minimum wage has succeeded in driving somebody out of business. That's real nice, isn't it? And it's GREAT for those workers who used to work there. Now they have to find new jobs. Guess what? Everybody's selling out! So now they can't find work anywhere because they have no skills to earn a higher wage.

Let's say he raises prices instead. Now a Big Mac costs 50 cents more than it did. Who's paying that increase? YOU ARE. That is known as a phantom tax.

Either way, the min wage increase is bad for business and the economy.

Most companies outsource jobs not because they can't afford to pay the workers, they outsource them because foreign countries are a cheap source of labor for them, lower labor cost higher profits for the company, and Fossten no job is ever safe.

Most fast food companies are paying their workers more than minimum wage.

You have still not proven that minimum wage hurts the economy, an increase in the minimum wage puts more money in the pockets of workers and that means they spend more money and that means an improved economy.

 

[Calabrio]

You have still not proven that minimum wage hurts the economy, an increase in the minimum wage puts more money in the pockets of workers and that means they spend more money and that means an improved economy.

No offense, but why don't you do a little research on the subject yourself. I mean, you are on the internet. Especially on positions that are widely accepted as fact, it's getting a little silly for every conservative who states accepted economic theory to find a link to support it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/16/opinion/main1901101.shtml

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_hassett&sid=arLH2cHXlAQY

http://www.fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid=1456

 

[MAC1]

Just raise the minimum wage and get it over with. The republicans should give the democrats what they want on this issue. Again, have a plan in place to deal with possible negative affects such as a proportional drop in income taxes for certain types of businesses that generally pay minimum wage such as restaurants and bars. Tax cuts don't have to be across the board to include Fortune 500 companies and the like. If it has negative affects on jobs then republicans can always say I told you so. But enough is enough with the minimum wage rhetoric regardless of what the studies say. Just raise it and be done with it and move on. There will always be time to play the blame game later on. If a raise causes problems at least the American people will see the results and be able to move on and no longer be distracted by minimum wage rhetoric.

 

[biglou71]

Or D: Share some of that increased PROFITS that your greedy ass buisness has been "handed by BuSh's tax cuts".

It never ceases to amaze me, Repugs NEVER think about sharing some of their good fortune with those less fortunate. They always want to pass the buck onto someone else and hoard all their good fortune to themselves.

your point of view maybe valid, IF your thinking of Exxon, or some large business. But many small businesses are just scraping by now, with current labor expenses. So, when you add in higher labor costs they are forced to do one of things I outlined above.

But forcing small businesses out of the market never has bothered the left, hell if they had their way, the government would run everything anyway. Communism For Teh Win Comrade

 

[Vitas]

No offense, but why don't you do a little research on the subject yourself. I mean, you are on the internet. Especially on positions that are widely accepted as fact, it's getting a little silly for every conservative who states accepted economic theory to find a link to support it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/16/opinion/main1901101.shtml

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_hassett&sid=arLH2cHXlAQY

http://www.fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid=1456

Nobel Economists: Republicans Wrong on Minimum Wage

by Bob Geiger | Oct 13 2006 - 10:26am

With the buying power of the Federal minimum wage at its lowest point in 55 years, five Nobel Prize-winning economists have been joined by 650 of their peers, in calling on the Republican-led Congress to increase the minimum wage. Describing the last increase almost 10 years ago as now "fully eroded," the economists said that they agree with a report written in 1999 by the Council of Economic Advisors declaring that "modest increases in the minimum wage have had very little or no effect on employment."

"We believe that a modest increase in the minimum wage would improve the well-being of low-wage workers and would not have the adverse effects that critics have claimed," the economists wrote in a paper delivered this week on a conference call hosted by the Economic Policy Institute, an economic research group based in Washington, D.C.

In addition to asserting that the real value of the minimum wage is at its lowest point since 1951, the economists also noted that the ratio of what a minimum-wage earner makes and the average pay rates of other hourly workers is at a significant low.

"The ratio of the minimum wage to the average hourly wage of non-supervisory workers is 31%, its lowest level since World War II," they said. " This decline is causing hardship for low-wage workers and their families."

The Federal minimum wage has been at $5.15 an hour since 1997, which puts a working American earning that wage, even laboring 50 hours a week, at below the national poverty line.

Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) has been ferociously pursuing the issue for years and with particular fervor in the current Congress, which ends this year.

“These esteemed economists understand what everyone except the Republican leadership and the White House understand: an increase in the minimum wage is long overdue and would strengthen our economy," said Kennedy, in a statement Thursday. "Millions of American families are living in poverty while working hard for the American dream, while the Republicans block every effort to give them the raise they deserve --- despite skyrocketing increases in health care, gas prices, and education."

Nobel Prize winners calling on Republicans to raise the minimum wage are Kenneth Arrow of Stanford University, Lawrence Klein of the University of Pennsylvania, Robert Solow of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Joseph Stiglitz at Columbia University and Clive Granger of the University of California, San Diego.

The Republican leadership and the Bush administration have stubbornly held to the view that a higher minimum wage would lead to fewer jobs and more employers moving jobs offshore -- the latter, a ludicrous assumption, given that most minimum wage jobs are local, service-oriented positions that cannot be moved to another country.

The group of 650 economists shot down that notion, saying in their report that a Democratic plan to phase in a minimum wage increase to $7.25 "falls well within the range of options where the benefits to the labor market, workers, and the overall economy would be positive."

They also contradicted Republican claims that most people earning minimum wage are teenagers who don’t use the money for living essentials and bare subsistence.

"While controversy about the precise employment effects of the minimum wage continues, research has shown that most of the beneficiaries are adults, most are female, and the vast majority are members of low-income working families," the report says.

Republicans put forth a bogus plan to raise the minimum wage over the summer, when they attached it to a whopping Estate Tax cut for America's super rich, knowing that the legislation would fail, but providing them with a cynical way to tell voters that they had voted to improve the lot of working families.

Meanwhile, the GOP Congress has killed three attempts by Kennedy to raise the minimum wage in just the last two years on almost straight party-line votes and will undoubtedly keep doing that if allowed to remain in power after November 7.

Said Kennedy: "It is clear as day that despite what the economists advise, the only way these hard working people will get a new raise is if this Congress gets new management in November."

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/1684

 

[Mavrick]

bad for the economy and bad for the low income people as well. Sorry but it is true. From a business prosepective I have 2 choices. My labor costs just went up so I either..

A. Lay off employees to offset the rise is labor costs.
B. Raise prices to offset the rise in labor costs.
C. Dont give raises to those currently making just over minimum wage, thus creating more people on minimum wage.

All bad things. Too bad people never think things thru.

First of all A, B, & C adds up to three choices not 2.

I live in a state that has a minimum wage that is quite a bit higher than the federal minimum and guess what the world has not come to an end for small businesses in our state. Although I am not a business owner I have worked in the management end for around 18 years now. I understand that rising costs can cut into your margins and if your margins are thin then yes you will have to do one of your 3 choices. If you choose “B” so what? What do you do when your rent goes up? (If you rent) What did you do when electric rates almost doubled in a matter of months a few years back? This slam to the pocket book was felt big time on the west coast. What did you do when gas prices nearly doubled? What have you done as the cost of heath care rises? Any one or all of these things can add up to more money than the relativity small increase in the minimum wage.

Remember, everyone that uses an entry level work force has to make the same choices as you do and most of them will choose “B” as well. Besides we were all bitching and moaning about $2.00 a gallon for gas a while back now I just paid $2.19 and I’m happy about it. Most people won’t even notice small price increases to cover this and the ones that do will soon forget about it.

The most important asset any company has is its employees. They are the face and voice of our businesses. They deserve a fair wage for a fair days work. My business has been running increases of 10 to 30% for the last 7 years. The only month that we have had a decrease from the same month of the previous year was September 2001. I attribute a lot of that to a staff that is quite happy and it shows in how they interact with our customers. Who knows maybe an increase in moral will translate into more business and you may be able to roll back your prices.

In my humble opinion if you can’t afford to pay someone that you are intrusting the reputation and assets of your business at least 6 or 7 dollars an hour you need to close up shop or register as a non profit and try to find a volunteer work force.

 

[rmac694203]

I was only kidding around Fossten, so don't take it so personally. The only reason I said anything to only you, is you're the one that anytime someone says something that you take the wrong way, you cry about personal attacks. Yet most of the time you are the first to hurl the attacks. So go ahead a cry about it if you want.

 

[biglou71]

First of all A, B, & C adds up to three choices not 2.

I live in a state that has a minimum wage that is quite a bit higher than the federal minimum and guess what the world has not come to an end for small businesses in our state. Although I am not a business owner I have worked in the management end for around 18 years now. I understand that rising costs can cut into your margins and if your margins are thin then yes you will have to do one of your 3 choices. If you choose “B” so what? What do you do when your rent goes up? (If you rent) What did you do when electric rates almost doubled in a matter of months a few years back? This slam to the pocket book was felt big time on the west coast. What did you do when gas prices nearly doubled? What have you done as the cost of heath care rises? Any one or all of these things can add up to more money than the relativity small increase in the minimum wage.

Remember, everyone that uses an entry level work force has to make the same choices as you do and most of them will choose “B” as well. Besides we were all bitching and moaning about $2.00 a gallon for gas a while back now I just paid $2.19 and I’m happy about it. Most people won’t even notice small price increases to cover this and the ones that do will soon forget about it.

The most important asset any company has is its employees. They are the face and voice of our businesses. They deserve a fair wage for a fair days work. My business has been running increases of 10 to 30% for the last 7 years. The only month that we have had a decrease from the same month of the previous year was September 2001. I attribute a lot of that to a staff that is quite happy and it shows in how they interact with our customers. Who knows maybe an increase in moral will translate into more business and you may be able to roll back your prices.

In my humble opinion if you can’t afford to pay someone that you are intrusting the reputation and assets of your business at least 6 or 7 dollars an hour you need to close up shop or register as a non profit and try to find a volunteer work force.

Indeed, 3 not 2, it was late and I should have been in bed LOL.

My point is that anyone who thinks that raising minium wage means more money in their pocket is fooling themselves. Businesses will simply raise their prices to offset the costs. You may be ahead of the curve for a couple of months, but the prices will catch up, and soon. And those who were above the Curve are hurt more than those who were at or below it were helped. Raising minimum wage forces inflation, hurting everyone.

On a realted topic. Around here, I dont even know where you could work and make minimum wage. Even McDonalds starts at 7.00 per hour.

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

your point of view maybe valid, IF your thinking of Exxon, or some large business. But many small businesses are just scraping by now, with current labor expenses. So, when you add in higher labor costs they are forced to do one of things I outlined above.

But forcing small businesses out of the market never has bothered the left, hell if they had their way, the government would run everything anyway. Communism For Teh Win Comrade

Gee then, if your small buisness is "just scraping by now", then WHAT HAPPENED to all the "great boming economy" where "everyone benifits" that was promised by the GOP with BuSh's tax cuts????

That's IS my point. THE ONLY BENEFICIARIES OF BUSH'S TAX CUTS WERE BIG CORPORATIONS AND THE WAGE EARNERS AT THE TOP OF THE INCOME SCALE. NOTHING has trickled down to the middle class, small buisness owners or those near the bottom earning at or close to minimum wage. Therefore the GOP's shouts of "tax cuts are good for everyone" is just plain :bsflag: The only way that works is if those big benefits at the top trickle down in the form of wage increases. That has NOT occurred because GREEDY mother-fluckers like fossten want to oppress those at the bottom of the income scale by keeping all the benefits of BuSh's tax cuts to themselves.

WRT the "what to do" when labor costs increase, certainly if your operating margins are thin (much more likely w/ a small buisness), you'll have to pass that cost onto the consumers of your product / service. If the consumers include those 6+ digit wage earners, who cares? THEY WON'T unless they are just plain greedy.

History has proven the societies with a huge disparities between the "elite" and the "poor" don't last long. At the other extreme, communistic socialism doesn't work either. However, there is a happy balance between these two extremes where EVERYONE can get ahead and be happy. These great United States of America MUST strive to maintain that balance. What the Republicans have done to our economy in the last 5 years have driven our society away from that balance and has increased the disparity between the "elite" and "poor". Corporate profits and top wage earners's salaries have boomed while the middle class and poor have fallen behind, that is FACT.

If I'm one of the little guys at the bottom, I really wouldn't care one iota if corporate profits and CEO salaries were booming, as long as I was getting ahead too. But when I'm falling behind at the same time they're getting ahead, something is out of whack and needs to change. Well guess what, AMERICA HAS SPOKEN.

Someone has to look out for the little guy, and it SURE IS NOT THE REPUBLICANS.

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

Indeed, 3 not 2, it was late and I should have been in bed LOL.

My point is that anyone who thinks that raising minium wage means more money in their pocket is fooling themselves. Businesses will simply raise their prices to offset the costs. You may be ahead of the curve for a couple of months, but the prices will catch up, and soon. And those who were above the Curve are hurt more than those who were at or below it were helped. Raising minimum wage forces inflation, hurting everyone.

On a realted topic. Around here, I dont even know where you could work and make minimum wage. Even McDonalds starts at 7.00 per hour.

I've got news for you, inflation is happening with or without an increase in minimum wage. And if so few people are actually getting paid minimum wage (one of the GOP's big arguments against a min-wage increase, echo'd by your own post), that argument is moot.

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

Who the hell are you, Mespock? Who the hell are YOU to tell somebody to take a pay cut just so somebody can be GIVEN some more money? You know what that is? That's socialism.

Whaaaa whaaa whaaaa, can you cry a little harder next time?

Let's flip this script around to reflect what has REALLY happened over the last 5 years.......

"Who the hell are you, GW BuSh, the GOP and fossten? Who the hell are YOU to tell some poor person earning minimum wage they don't deserve a raise just so some rich CEO and his buisness can be GIVEN some more money? You know what that is? That's UN-AMERICAN."

So fossten hates America and what it stands for, no big revalation there.

While you're telling people what to do with their money, why don't you lecture Johnny about driving a $45,000 Lincoln LS? Why don't you tell him he should sell it and give the money to the poor? After all, how dare he drive around in an expensive car while people are driving beaters making minimum wage? Is it going to put you in poverty to sell your Mark and drive a beater as well? Hmmm?

HATER, You're just jealous because you are driving a 13 year old car. And get your facts straight, my LS IS MY BEATER!

DUDE, you are completely missing the point, and are mixing apples and oranges. The difference between YOU and I is, YOU want to oppress everyone who is struggling to get ahead while I want to get them a hand up. YOU don't want to spend another dime on your next Big Mac even if it means American jobs are lost to slave labor overseas, where I don't really CARE if my next Big Mac costs $1 more if it means the guy working drive-thru can put food in front of his kids at the dinner table or he can pay next semester's tuition at the community college.

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

The most important asset any company has is its employees. They are the face and voice of our businesses. They deserve a fair wage for a fair days work. My business has been running increases of 10 to 30% for the last 7 years. The only month that we have had a decrease from the same month of the previous year was September 2001. I attribute a lot of that to a staff that is quite happy and it shows in how they interact with our customers. Who knows maybe an increase in moral will translate into more business and you may be able to roll back your prices.

In my humble opinion if you can’t afford to pay someone that you are intrusting the reputation and assets of your business at least 6 or 7 dollars an hour you need to close up shop or register as a non profit and try to find a volunteer work force.

AMEN! :I

 

[biglou71]

Someone has to look out for the little guy, and it SURE IS NOT THE REPUBLICANS.

You may be right about that, But... IT SURE THE HELL IS NOT THE DEMOCRATS EITHER!!

Neither party looks out for the "little guy". IF you think the Democrats are, then you are deluding yourself. And raising minimum wage is simple pandering for votes, it will do nothing to help the little guy, of which I am one.