Any Advice Would Really Be Appreciated

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KC96LSC

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Hello all, I've started the tear down of my 96' Mark VIII. My original plan was to put in an engine I already have on hand. After some time contemplating the idea, I realized that the helper I have couldn't do it and I physically couldn't do the work ether. My neck gives me a lot of problems and to be on my back trying to hold my head off the ground to do the work just wasn't going to happen. So I decided to move on to plan B, which is doing the head gasket. With my helper there to do the wrenching and such, it's the best way for me to get her up and running again. We have a place here in KC called Nolands Cylinder Head Service, they actually did a set of 327 heads for me back in the early 80's and recently did the heads on my fathers Dodge Ram for the head gasket job we did on it a couple years ago. Anyway, Bud (one of the sons) said he would take care of me on the heads. There shop is really awesome, I have complete trust in these guys.

As for my engine, I'm very comfortable with the short block itself. I've owned the car for most of its life and have changed the oil every 3000. The only noise I ever heard was the timing chains, at least I'm pretty sure that's what I was hearing. I went ahead and ordered the 96 Mark VIII shop manual, that should have all the specs I will need for putting it all back together, I have a couple questions if anyone would care to chime in.

First of all, I'm not exactly sure what gasket set I need to order, I've done so much reading I think I overloaded my head. I believe this is at least one of the sets I need (Ford Racing M6067T46 Head Changing Kit) but I also need to get the set for the 96' Intake Manifold, IMRC & Valve Covers as well as the other gaskets to finish the job. So if someone could tell me what the best kit to buy that would cover all my needs, that would be great.
Next topic is about a timing chain set, I figure while I'm in there I should do all I can do to improve it. I've seen different sets on eBay and would appreciate any advice about this subject.
Another thing I was thinking about was rebuilding the fuel injectors. I think this video does a great job of showing how to go about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxVcZyyF8Fo
Please tell me about anything I might be over looking. I would like to do everything I can to improve my 189,000 mile engine.
I'm sure I'll have more questions as I go but for now, anyone that might help guide me along I would really appreciate the insight.
Here's a pic just for the heck of it.

025.jpg
 
My advice is to buddy up to a FOMOCO dealer. We used to have Max at Five Star, I don't know were else to send you, as I got my own locally. You should stay with the Motorcraft kits, and that's were you you need a patient parts guy to go thru and get you the correct numbers for the kit and what it includes, typically the FOMOCO kit gives you more than you want as they are very complete.

You are also going to need to have tools to set the cam timing on these heads on assembly. Any errors will be catastrophic. Do not take anything apart until you have your manual, and have immersed yourself in the timing issues, as you could cause a lot of unnecessary work .
I believe either at this site or on the LOD site there is a write up on proper cam timing, and head rebuild. There are also some tools required which you may need to borrow or make or buy.
 
Thanks for replying Roadboss, we did a head gasket on my fathers Dodge Ram SOHC and when I took those off we positioned everything on the factory marks as well as marking sprockets and chains for positioning. Bud (head shop guy) is going to do it just like he did the last time, so when I get them back everything will be just as I took them off, so as long as the crank doesn't get moved, everything should go back on the same way. Please tell me if I'm missing something here. It worked fine 30,000 miles ago on the Dodge. As for getting a Ford guy at the dealer I should probably go up there and start talking to someone I guess.

I will go look around more for some of the write ups your referencing to, thanks again for the help every little bit helps.
 
You need to ask can this even be reasonably done with the engine in the vehicle?

Removing the cam cover is one thing but removing the head with the engine in the vehicle is quite another.

I do know the service manual has a complete section on "in-vehicle" service procedures. If I recall the exhaust manifold is supposed to come with the head.

Regardless of the details and my experience (or lack of), I would not advise it. But if you choose to do so, as RoadBoss says, use genuine FLM parts and gaskets where possible. Fel-Pro does make acceptable gaskets and I have bought their IMRC gaskets and cam cover gaskets within the past year. You can get pretty good pricing for gaskets on Rock Auto, but if you can source them from the dealer it may be better depending on who pays shipping. Some stuff I can get from the dealer parts counter cheaper once you add shipping costs from getting them online.

You want to look for the Ford Racing camshaft drive kit (the full timing set should be around $500, tensioners included). You can do better with the secondary sprockets and chains by getting billet steel gears and HD chains (as I am about to do).

Don't waste your time or money on rebuilding injectors or having them serviced. Buy new FRPP from a reputable distributor or re-use what you have.

Head gaskets - Ford MLS (Multi-Layer Steel) gaskets are the way to go.

Hardware - the head bolts are one-time use torque-to-yield bolts, you will want new ones. If you are replacing the head in the car you will not be able to use ARP studs. Anything else you can replace with ARP hardware is well worth the cost (I'm thinking cam bolts in particular).

Cam Timing - as RoadBoss said, you get one chance to do it right. And again this will be more difficult in my opinion with the engine in the vehicle. I know it can be done but it won't be easy, especially for the first time. :eek:

If you do this, study the manual, take lots of pictures, tag your parts and hardware and document your progress. Unless you do it non-stop from start to finish, you will appreciate the pictures and notes for future reference. And there is nothing worse than wondering which bolt goes in what hole... LOL. ;)
 
Driller, thanks for taking the time to respond to this. I have marked everything (electrical) with exact labeling Pass side / Drive side and so on. Also I've been putting all the intake bolts in cardboard so I can put them back in the exact spot they came out of. I have read a couple of write ups from others who have done the job with the short block still in the car. There are definitely a couple tricks to getting the heads up and out of there though.


About doing the timing chain, I would love to do the Ford Racing stuff but can not afford it. the only reason I'm even able to do this top end rebuild is support from family and friends. So my question here is, is it better to leave the basically 200,000 miles timing chain set and related parts alone or go ahead and replace with a $200.00 set off of eBay?

Again, I'm documenting everything I can, I've taken about 45 pics so far and all bolts I have been putting back in where they came from. Basically when something comes off I take pics, label and replace bolts back in or tag and put them in a cardboard diagram of what and where they came out of.

I guess I'll go to a Ford dealer and spend some time with the parts guy figuring what all the gaskets I will need and then compare with Rock Autos pricing

Driller, I read your post about your timing chain and sprocket, that just sucks. I hope you can just get new chain, sprockets and PS tensioners or whole new kit and be back up and running


PS Both of you guys Driller & Roadboss, I obviously remember you guys from years past and I just want you both to know, I really like both of your rides immensely. They are great examples of what these cars can be.
 
KC96LSC said:
So my question here is, is it better to leave the basically 200,000 miles timing chain set and related parts alone or go ahead and replace with a $200.00 set off of eBay?
Click to expand...

I have a feeling you will know more when you take it apart. But I would say if the timing chain set does not show obvious wear, I would leave well enough alone.

You can inspect the sprockets for worn teeth easily enough by visual examination. You can lay the chain down with the side plates vertical and the rollers horizontal and then see how far the chain will bend sideways to gauge the chain wear. Of course to compare to new you would need a new chain.

A more measureable gauge of wear of the roller chain is the elongation of the chain as measured over a number of pitches. The pitch of a chain is the distance from center to center of the rollers. This can be measured directly with the chain under tension. You basically multiply the pitch distance of the chain by the number of pitches to arrive at the gauge length. Then compare the calculated gauge length by measuring the same number of pitches of the chain in question.

Keeping the math simple as an illustration, say for 1/4" pitch chain (4 pitches per inch), 40 pitches equals 10 inches. Measuring 40 pitches of a used chain at 40-1/8" equals 1/8" elongation. 1/8" divided by 40 pitches equals 0.003125" per pitch or 1.25%. By rule of thumb, the maximum wear limit of the chain is generally taken as 1.5%.

This is all probably more than you need to know. I think you will find the chains and/or sprockets show obvious wear and I would imagine the tensioner and chain guides to be approaching the end of their useful life.

I hope I am wrong.
 
driller, I actually understand your explanation off measuring for the elongation of the chains. I think your probably right though, that the tensioners and guides have had better days. Again driller, thank you for bouncing this stuff around for me.

The weather here has gone back to 97 degree days with Heat index of 110 -115 so that's slowing things down for the next few days. Have a good weekend.

Greg
 
I cant image doing this with the engine in the car, cant say that its impossible just not well advised.
I do have a set of low mile b heads if yours are beyond repair Greg.

Your going to need the cam tool set to get it back to stock specs.
Marking everything and not moving the crank wont do it.
#1 needs to be at TDC and the cam tools need to be installed to put the cams in a safe place.
 
Kirk, Thank for the offer on the heads. About doing it in the car, I agree it's not the best method but I have to work with what I've got available to me. I've read a few threads where other people have done it, there are a couple tricks to it but I believe it can be done. Right now I'm broke and I don't mean just about the car. The only reason I'm getting to get the car back going is because a friend has told me to do it. So I have to save and do everything as inexpensively as possible.

Obviously I can't be cheap on the head gaskets or bolts. I've read and been told, I don't have to use tools just as long as I take my time and make sure it goes on just as it came off. I know about putting the engine at TDC and making sure the key grove is pointing at 9 O'clock. I over saw the job we did on my fathers 4.7 SOHC engine and taking my time and marking everything worked out. I know that once the main sprocket/chain is pulled that the cams/springs will move just like they did when we did my fathers head job, but I made sure that when I put it back together, it was where it was when we pulled it off. Please tell me (I mean this as sincerely as I can) what the difference is. Why it wont work for this engine. I know it's not the best idea but what I've read that they say it will be fine as long as I make sure it is exactly like it was when I pulled it off.

One other thing, is this a good set to get ( Ford Racing M6067T46 Head Changing Kit ) Picture should show up at the bottom.

Kirk, again I know it's not the proper way to do this but I would rather put that money towards parts for the engine.

Greg

71JbBn0xwfL._SL1500_.jpg
 
Hey Kirk, John and you other guys that have built these engines, did you key your cam gears to the cams? I know that Mo has told me before that he key's his to keep them from slipping under boost and high rpm's.
 
chargerxr said:
Hey Kirk, John and you other guys that have built these engines, did you key your cam gears to the cams? I know that Mo has told me before that he key's his to keep them from slipping under boost and high rpm's.
Click to expand...

They should have keys, I have heard some dont.
I kept my keys and filed them and shimed, they don't need much to come off when you degree cams. I was more worried about the cams slipping when torquing down the sprocket cam bolts then it slipping once together.

Greg the problem with attempting to do this without the tool is when the tension is off the chains it easy to be off on the crank sprocket.
There is slop in that chain, when the tensioner is put on if everything is not right it will move the primary gear moving the exhaust cam which will in turn moves the intake cam.
The tool goes in a slot in the back of both cams keeps it so they cant move another tool holds both cams when you torque down the cam sprocket bolts the third part of the kit puts you on TDC on the number 1 hole.
There is no way I would ever attempt this without that kit.
If your guess is off that engine is scrap with the tool there is no guess work.

Besides the head gaskets and bolts you need new cam sprocket bolts and a chain cover gasket.
 
Hey Kirk, I went ahead and ordered the tool. With all the reading I did, the closest I got was for a 98' Cobra. He said that you put the crank key at 12 O'clock and then advance it 45 degrees further and that would put it in the safe zone. I also found a couple other articles that gave the same advice but again they were for a 99' cobra or other SOHC 4.6. Not finding anyone that at least referenced the Mark VIII, I just couldn't take the chance.

With that behind me, I'm wondering if the gasket set (above) is one of the sets I should buy. Another thing is my manifold it was leaking between the upper and lower manifolds, I did my best to try and save it but didn't have a lot of luck. I know that gasket is not available anywhere, what can I do about that?

I've started reading about cleaning the IMRC and other carbon build up, have you ever done this and if so what should I use to clean up everything?

Now one last thing for now, under the valve cover on my drivers side it's a lot darker than the passenger side, what would have caused this to happen?

Here are the pics:

2.jpg


67.jpg
 
That's fairly common, I've taken several apart and seen the same thing. The DOHC 4.6 has always run hotter on the drivers side then the passenger side. Cobra guys have the same problem for years as well. The 3rd version C Head finally adressed it but those mostly only came in the 2005 aviator.

There are aftermarket cooling mods to correct this, such as MMR. They will even the cooling out and not cook the oil plus helps with detonation.
 
Hey Eric, thanks for the input. I hope all is going good with you. I've seen the mods for cooling the heads, I always thought that was just for the more High Performance engines. I was thinking maybe I had a bad valve guides or seals. If I can bother you with this, do you remember what gaskets kits you bought to redo the top end? My money is very tight but I don't/won't just get the cheapest gaskets. I know that doesn't work, I just need to watch every penny. Any advice about this would be a big help.
 
The kit you listed checks out from several vendors online but I haven't seen those type exhaust manifold gaskets.

I've heard a lot of stories of shaft keys not used on the cam sprockets but the timing set used on mine had integral keys on the sprockets. In my opinion, I would use keys or integral keyed sprockets.

I also highly suggest using ARP cam sprocket bolts.
 
Markviiiedrea said:
There are aftermarket cooling mods to correct this, such as MMR. They will even the cooling out and not cook the oil plus helps with detonation.
Click to expand...

allegedly fix the issue. people were making power with modulars long before the cooling mod appeared. and don't buy from MMR.
 
driller said:
The kit you listed checks out from several vendors online but I haven't seen those type exhaust manifold gaskets.

I've heard a lot of stories of shaft keys not used on the cam sprockets but the timing set used on mine had integral keys on the sprockets. In my opinion, I would use keys or integral keyed sprockets.

I also highly suggest using ARP cam sprocket bolts.
Click to expand...

+1
 
I had to put things on hold for a couple days, I kinda wore myself down a bit :). I'm going to hit it starting Monday, as long as the weather agrees with me. As I stated earlier, I got the cam tool. I'm actually looking forward to using it. Once I'm done, hopefully I can make it available to anyone that might need it. Thanks for all the input guys.

Greg
 
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