Are cameras the new guns?

FIND

Dedicated LVC Member
Joined
May 19, 2010
Messages
631
Reaction score
0
Location
Vermillion, SD
http://gizmodo.com/5553765/are-cameras-the-new-guns

In response to a flood of Facebook and YouTube videos that depict police abuse, a new trend in law enforcement is gaining popularity. In at least three states, it is now illegal to record any on-duty police officer.

Even if the encounter involves you and may be necessary to your defense, and even if the recording is on a public street where no expectation of privacy exists.

The legal justification for arresting the "shooter" rests on existing wiretapping or eavesdropping laws, with statutes against obstructing law enforcement sometimes cited. Illinois, Massachusetts, and Maryland are among the 12 states in which all parties must consent for a recording to be legal unless, as with TV news crews, it is obvious to all that recording is underway. Since the police do not consent, the camera-wielder can be arrested. Most all-party-consent states also include an exception for recording in public places where "no expectation of privacy exists" (Illinois does not) but in practice this exception is not being recognized.

Massachusetts attorney June Jensen represented Simon Glik who was arrested for such a recording. She explained, "[T]he statute has been misconstrued by Boston police. You could go to the Boston Common and snap pictures and record if you want." Legal scholar and professor Jonathan Turley agrees, "The police are basing this claim on a ridiculous reading of the two-party consent surveillance law - requiring all parties to consent to being taped. I have written in the area of surveillance law and can say that this is utter nonsense."

The courts, however, disagree. A few weeks ago, an Illinois judge rejected a motion to dismiss an eavesdropping charge against Christopher Drew, who recorded his own arrest for selling one-dollar artwork on the streets of Chicago. Although the misdemeanor charges of not having a peddler's license and peddling in a prohibited area were dropped, Drew is being prosecuted for illegal recording, a Class I felony punishable by 4 to 15 years in prison.

In 2001, when Michael Hyde was arrested for criminally violating the state's electronic surveillance law - aka recording a police encounter - the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court upheld his conviction 4-2. In dissent, Chief Justice Margaret Marshall stated, "Citizens have a particularly important role to play when the official conduct at issue is that of the police. Their role cannot be performed if citizens must fear criminal reprisals…." (Note: In some states it is the audio alone that makes the recording illegal.)

The selection of "shooters" targeted for prosecution do, indeed, suggest a pattern of either reprisal or an attempt to intimidate.

Glik captured a police action on his cellphone to document what he considered to be excessive force. He was not only arrested, his phone was also seized.

On his website Drew wrote, "Myself and three other artists who documented my actions tried for two months to get the police to arrest me for selling art downtown so we could test the Chicago peddlers license law. The police hesitated for two months because they knew it would mean a federal court case. With this felony charge they are trying to avoid this test and ruin me financially and stain my credibility."

Hyde used his recording to file a harassment complaint against the police. After doing so, he was criminally charged.

In short, recordings that are flattering to the police - an officer kissing a baby or rescuing a dog - will almost certainly not result in prosecution even if they are done without all-party consent. The only people who seem prone to prosecution are those who embarrass or confront the police, or who somehow challenge the law. If true, then the prosecutions are a form of social control to discourage criticism of the police or simple dissent.

A recent arrest in Maryland is both typical and disturbing.

On March 5, 24-year-old Anthony John Graber III's motorcycle was pulled over for speeding. He is currently facing criminal charges for a video he recorded on his helmet-mounted camera during the traffic stop.

The case is disturbing because:

1) Graber was not arrested immediately. Ten days after the encounter, he posted some of he material to YouTube, and it embarrassed Trooper J. D. Uhler. The trooper, who was in plainclothes and an unmarked car, jumped out waving a gun and screaming. Only later did Uhler identify himself as a police officer. When the YouTube video was discovered the police got a warrant against Graber, searched his parents' house (where he presumably lives), seized equipment, and charged him with a violation of wiretapping law.

2) Baltimore criminal defense attorney Steven D. Silverman said he had never heard of the Maryland wiretap law being used in this manner. In other words, Maryland has joined the expanding trend of criminalizing the act of recording police abuse. Silverman surmises, "It's more [about] ‘contempt of cop' than the violation of the wiretapping law."

3) Police spokesman Gregory M. Shipley is defending the pursuit of charges against Graber, denying that it is "some capricious retribution" and citing as justification the particularly egregious nature of Graber's traffic offenses. Oddly, however, the offenses were not so egregious as to cause his arrest before the video appeared.

Almost without exception, police officials have staunchly supported the arresting officers. This argues strongly against the idea that some rogue officers are overreacting or that a few cops have something to hide. "Arrest those who record the police" appears to be official policy, and it's backed by the courts.

Carlos Miller at the Photography Is Not A Crime website offers an explanation: "For the second time in less than a month, a police officer was convicted from evidence obtained from a videotape. The first officer to be convicted was New York City Police Officer Patrick Pogan, who would never have stood trial had it not been for a video posted on Youtube showing him body slamming a bicyclist before charging him with assault on an officer. The second officer to be convicted was Ottawa Hills (Ohio) Police Officer Thomas White, who shot a motorcyclist in the back after a traffic stop, permanently paralyzing the 24-year-old man."

When the police act as though cameras were the equivalent of guns pointed at them, there is a sense in which they are correct. Cameras have become the most effective weapon that ordinary people have to protect against and to expose police abuse. And the police want it to stop.

Happily, even as the practice of arresting "shooters" expands, there are signs of effective backlash. At least one Pennsylvania jurisdiction has reaffirmed the right to video in public places. As part of a settlement with ACLU attorneys who represented an arrested "shooter," the police in Spring City and East Vincent Township adopted a written policy allowing the recording of on-duty policemen.

As journalist Radley Balko declares, "State legislatures should consider passing laws explicitly making it legal to record on-duty law enforcement officials."

Wendy McElroy is the author of several books on anarchism and feminism. She maintains the iconoclastic website ifeminists.net as well as an active blog at wendymcelroy.com.

The author of this post can be contacted at tips@gizmodo.com



As someone I knew was just saying to someone else I know who lives in Massachusettes, "How's it feel to live in Nazi-land."

and discuss.
 
Happily, even as the practice of arresting "shooters" expands, there are signs of effective backlash. At least one Pennsylvania jurisdiction has reaffirmed the right to video in public places. As part of a settlement with ACLU attorneys who represented an arrested "shooter," the police in Spring City and East Vincent Township adopted a written policy allowing the recording of on-duty policemen.

Thank goodness for the ACLU - and hopefully the rest of the country will go the way of the Pennsylvania jurisdiction, that people will be allowed to record on-duty police. They are on our payroll - they are answerable to the people they serve. They shouldn't hide behind wiretap/eavesdropping/electronic surveillance laws, they shouldn't need to.
 
Thank goodness for the ACLU - and hopefully the rest of the country will go the way of the Pennsylvania jurisdiction, that people will be allowed to record on-duty police. They are on our payroll - they are answerable to the people they serve. They shouldn't hide behind wiretap/eavesdropping/electronic surveillance laws, they shouldn't need to.

EXACTLY!! F those scumbags! If you don't want to be videotaped being corrupt then don't be on the taxpayer dollar.
 
So, we are seeing further abuse of power by the state.

I don't know of anyone who supports these types of things, aside from Massachusetts cops who have something to gain from this type of thing.

Legal interpretations like this are wrong. Besides, one would think that as a public servant, there is an implied consent to subject oneself to public review and documentation of ones actions by the public. Of course, I would say that there is a difference if a person is recording solely for the purpose of distributing their recording for profit....
 
Most cops are conservatives so it's not surprising they would act in this manner when given the chance.
 
Most cops are conservatives so it's not surprising they would act in this manner when given the chance.

...you'll have try to be more clever, the trolling is getting too obvious. :rolleyes:

Let's presume the police officers are conservative.
But they don't make laws.

What cities and states are cited in the suit?
Are are these laws in conservative states or leftist ones?
Illinois, Massachusetts, and Maryland are mentioned in the article.

"Conservatives," or more accurately classical liberals, don't support police states or big government, that's the territory of the left.
 
But most cops are conservatives.
Routine police work is not sophisticated which is why they don't want people who are too bright and will get bored.
Cops can act pretty bluntly executing their duties.
Conservatives are more apt to want to legislate morality and restrict people's personal freedoms.
Abortion, birth control, homosexuality, casual drug use, teenage sexuality as examples are all things conservatives want to control morally with the law.
Law enforcement sees cameras as interfering with police business aspects of which can best be described as unpleasant.
They don't want the public seeing the sausages being made.
Next thing you know they'll be using the Patriot Act to classify common criminals as terrorists in another stretch in order to use this "Tool" at their disposal.
 
But most cops are conservatives.
You've said that already.

Routine police work is not sophisticated which is why they don't want people who are too bright and will get bored.
Actually that isn't true at all.

Cops can act pretty bluntly executing their duties.
Everyone can act pretty blunt when executing their jobs.

Conservatives are more apt to want to legislate morality and restrict people's personal freedoms.
No they aren't.
It's the political left that wants to legislate and restrict personal freedom. Limited government doesn't have the power to do such things.

This is an interesting misconception though, one we should address in another thread...

Abortion, birth control, homosexuality, casual drug use, teenage sexuality as examples are all things conservatives want to control morally with the law.
There are people in both parties that want to abuse the power of the government to influence behavior and have greater influence in our personal lives.

But I know of no laws that are being advanced that ban birth control or homosexuality.

Abortion isn't about shaping moral behavior, but the belief that an innocent, independent, life is being killed. So, including it in your list is inappropriate.

Casual drug use laws were imposed at the turn of the century by the progressive left. Prohibition was imposed by the progressive left. And it's the left that wants to further legislate behavior, be it banning table salt in restaurants or making me wear a helmet on a motorcycle.

And I have no idea why you included teenage sex on this list.

Law enforcement sees cameras as interfering with police business aspects of which can best be described as unpleasant.
At the same rate, law enforcement is increasingly putting cameras on their cars to record all interactions in an effort to protect the officers.

They don't want the public seeing the sausages being made.
According to you.

Next thing you know they'll be using the Patriot Act to classify common criminals as terrorists in another stretch in order to use this "Tool" at their disposal.
Let's look at this topic objectively here.

You have expressed a great deal of contempt and hostility towards local police officers. You've posted an emotional rant rather than a thoughtful argument.

Most police officer and departments have EXPANDED the use of video cameras in law enforcement because it PROTECTS the officers on the street from false charges.

This video camera ban is opposed by "conservative" people, or classic liberals, like myself. And, just using this community as an example, I'm sure that Fossten AND Shag both think the law as presented here is wrong.

Also of note, the three states listed in the article are Illinois, Massachusetts, and Maryland. These are not conservative states.

Yet, despite your contempt and distrust of law enforcement, you overwhelmingly support the broad expansion of government power and intervention in our lives. That's a contradiction that defies logic.

If you think that the local police are going to abuse their power, why would you strengthen the power at the federal level where you have no direct voice or influence or accountability.
 
Actually that isn't true at all.

Judge Rules That Police Can Bar High I.Q. Scores

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/n...rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores.html


NEW HAVEN— A Federal judge has dismissed a lawsuit by a man who was barred from the New London police force because he scored too high on an intelligence test.
In a ruling made public on Tuesday, Judge Peter C. Dorsey of the United States District Court in New Haven agreed that the plaintiff, Robert Jordan, was denied an opportunity to interview for a police job because of his high test scores. But he said that that did not mean Mr. Jordan was a victim of discrimination.
Judge Dorsey ruled that Mr. Jordan was not denied equal protection because the city of New London applied the same standard to everyone: anyone who scored too high was rejected.
Mr. Jordan, 48, who has a bachelor's degree in literature and is an officer with the State Department of Corrections, said he was considering an appeal. ''I was eliminated on the basis of my intellectual makeup,'' he said. ''It's the same as discrimination on the basis of gender or religion or race.''

_______________________________________________________________

Detectives and forensic cops are smart but too high an intellegence for a beat cop or highway patrol officer is a disqualifier for some departments.
 
Most cops are conservatives so it's not surprising they would act in this manner when given the chance.

There really can be no question at this point that you are nothing but a troll on this forum. Nothing above are resident troll, PetesSweets86.
 
Judge Rules That Police Can Bar High I.Q. Scores

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/n...rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores.html


NEW HAVEN— A Federal judge has dismissed a lawsuit by a man who was barred from the New London police force because he scored too high on an intelligence test.
In a ruling made public on Tuesday, Judge Peter C. Dorsey of the United States District Court in New Haven agreed that the plaintiff, Robert Jordan, was denied an opportunity to interview for a police job because of his high test scores. But he said that that did not mean Mr. Jordan was a victim of discrimination.
Judge Dorsey ruled that Mr. Jordan was not denied equal protection because the city of New London applied the same standard to everyone: anyone who scored too high was rejected.
Mr. Jordan, 48, who has a bachelor's degree in literature and is an officer with the State Department of Corrections, said he was considering an appeal. ''I was eliminated on the basis of my intellectual makeup,'' he said. ''It's the same as discrimination on the basis of gender or religion or race.''

_______________________________________________________________

Detectives and forensic cops are smart but too high an intellegence for a beat cop or highway patrol officer is a disqualifier for some departments.

You really don't even try to think critically do you.

This, in no way proves your argument. Just because they can take some action doesn't mean that they do take some action.

One, isolated incident is, at best, anecdotal and doesn't prove your point. Also, your report is being filtered through a news source that tends to editorialize in their reporting and often ignorantly oversimplifies and misrepresents legal news of any kind.
 
You've said that already.


Actually that isn't true at all.


Everyone can act pretty blunt when executing their jobs.


No they aren't.
It's the political left that wants to legislate and restrict personal freedom. Limited government doesn't have the power to do such things.

This is an interesting misconception though, one we should address in another thread...


There are people in both parties that want to abuse the power of the government to influence behavior and have greater influence in our personal lives.

But I know of no laws that are being advanced that ban birth control or homosexuality.

Abortion isn't about shaping moral behavior, but the belief that an innocent, independent, life is being killed. So, including it in your list is inappropriate.

Casual drug use laws were imposed at the turn of the century by the progressive left. Prohibition was imposed by the progressive left. And it's the left that wants to further legislate behavior, be it banning table salt in restaurants or making me wear a helmet on a motorcycle.

And I have no idea why you included teenage sex on this list.


At the same rate, law enforcement is increasingly putting cameras on their cars to record all interactions in an effort to protect the officers.


According to you.


Let's look at this topic objectively here.

You have expressed a great deal of contempt and hostility towards local police officers. You've posted an emotional rant rather than a thoughtful argument.

Most police officer and departments have EXPANDED the use of video cameras in law enforcement because it PROTECTS the officers on the street from false charges.

This video camera ban is opposed by "conservative" people, or classic liberals, like myself. And, just using this community as an example, I'm sure that Fossten AND Shag both think the law as presented here is wrong.

Also of note, the three states listed in the article are Illinois, Massachusetts, and Maryland. These are not conservative states.

Yet, despite your contempt and distrust of law enforcement, you overwhelmingly support the broad expansion of government power and intervention in our lives. That's a contradiction that defies logic.

If you think that the local police are going to abuse their power, why would you strengthen the power at the federal level where you have no direct voice or influence or accountability.

It's not as much fun here without foss :(

liberals may want to control society's behavior and that can have some tyrannical elements but conservatives more want to control and/or punish the behaviour of individuals in their personal lives and that has tyrannical elements as well.

Police forces are designed to be aggressive with judges and the courts as the final referees and deciders.

In the past I've had more minor tickets than I'd care to admit but with the help of my electronic friends in the last 5 years I've learned to avoid getting ticketed.
I also had a uniformed officer essentially shake me down for a donation to his police bbq after he walked through an open door on me with suspicion until he realized I was the owner.
Chief Wigham and the Simpsons police force have an element of truth in the satire.
The police are like being in the presence of a dangerous or at least annoying animal and one should act accordingly.
 
Here is a post from the conservative blog, hotair.com, that shows 04SCTLS' attempt to brand this on conservatives as nothing more then a dishonest, opportunistic attempt to smear and ostracize. It also points to a libertarian source, Reason Magazine, in being opposed to this as well.
Do police have a legitimate expectation of privacy in public performance of duty?
posted at 1:36 pm on June 3, 2010 by Ed Morrissey

Perhaps the blame lies on the founders who wrote our Constitution, who included an individual right to bear arms but not to bear … cameras. In a handful of states, it has now become illegal to videotape police officers performing their duties in public, and in Maryland, it can result in charges of illegal wiretapping. The efforts to squelch videotaping have created situations where citizens place themselves at risk in having no expectation of privacy when speaking to police in public, but the officers themselves are presumed to have that expectation in the same conversation and place:
In response to a flood of Facebook and YouTube videos that depict police abuse, a new trend in law enforcement is gaining popularity. In at least three states, it is now illegal to record any on-duty police officer.

Even if the encounter involves you and may be necessary to your defense, and even if the recording is on a public street where no expectation of privacy exists.

The legal justification for arresting the “shooter” rests on existing wiretapping or eavesdropping laws, with statutes against obstructing law enforcement sometimes cited. Illinois, Massachusetts, and Maryland are among the 12 states in which all parties must consent for a recording to be legal unless, as with TV news crews, it is obvious to all that recording is underway. Since the police do not consent, the camera-wielder can be arrested. Most all-party-consent states also include an exception for recording in public places where “no expectation of privacy exists” (Illinois does not) but in practice this exception is not being recognized.

Massachusetts attorney June Jensen represented Simon Glik who was arrested for such a recording. She explained, “[T]he statute has been misconstrued by Boston police. You could go to the Boston Common and snap pictures and record if you want.” Legal scholar and professor Jonathan Turley agrees, “The police are basing this claim on a ridiculous reading of the two-party consent surveillance law – requiring all parties to consent to being taped. I have written in the area of surveillance law and can say that this is utter nonsense.”

The courts, however, disagree. A few weeks ago, an Illinois judge rejected a motion to dismiss an eavesdropping charge against Christopher Drew, who recorded his own arrest for selling one-dollar artwork on the streets of Chicago. Although the misdemeanor charges of not having a peddler’s license and peddling in a prohibited area were dropped, Drew is being prosecuted for illegal recording, a Class I felony punishable by 4 to 15 years in prison.
Radley Balko has been covering this issue for Reason Magazine for quite a while. He also looks at Maryland’s attempt to use wiretapping laws to keep people from videotaping police:
Graber is due in court next week. He faces up to five years in prison. State’s Attorney Joseph Cassilly has also charged Graber with “Possession of an Interception Device.” That “device” would be Graber’s otherwise-perfectly-legal video camera.

Graber’s case is starting to spur some local and national media discussion of the state’s wiretapping law. As I mentioned in my column last month, his arrest came at about the same time the Jack McKenna case broke nationally. McKenna, a student at the University of Maryland, was given an unprovoked beating by police during student celebrations after a basketball game last February. McKenna would probably still be facing criminal charges and the cops who beat him would likely still be on the beat were it not for several cell phone videos that captured his beating. According to Cassily’s interpretation of the law, if any of those cell phones were close enough to record audio of the beating, the people who shot the videos are felons.

Now we have another video of an arrest during the Preakness Stakes in which a Baltimore police officer can be heard telling the camera-holder, “Do me a favor and turn that off. It’s illegal to record anybody’s voice or anything else in the state of Maryland.”

That simply isn’t true, and it’s outrageous that Maryland law enforcement keeps perpetuating this myth. Perhaps that officer was merely misinformed. But Maryland police spokesmen and prosecutors are giving the impression that the state’s wiretapping law is ambiguous about recording on-duty police officers. It really isn’t. They’ve just chosen to interpret it that way, logic and common sense be damned.
No one is arguing that people should interfere in an investigation or expose undercover police on YouTube. These cases involve people videotaping police actions in public, where the police either wear uniforms or announce themselves as law enforcement officers. Last year, the video of a DC police officer brandishing his gun to stop a snowball fight became of the most popular YouTube clips of the year, and resulted in disciplinary action for the police officer. None of these endangered an investigation, but some of these have shown abuses of power by police officers that should focus attention on the officers rather than the videographers.

Police do not have an expectation of privacy in their public encounters with the citizenry. In fact, they should have instead an expectation of public accountability for the performance of that work. When a free people give police the authority to enforce our laws and to have the leeway to commit acts of violence in doing so, that is a trust that requires oversight and accountability. The vast majority of police officers enforce the law in a lawful, professional manner, but some abuse their positions of trust. Removing oversight makes it more difficult for the professionals to do their job and easier for the small number of abusers to bully others into following their example.

Instead of using the combination of technology and a free people to ensure accountability, a few states instead want to turn videographers into felons and put police beyond public scrutiny. That’s a very bad combination and direction. The notion that police officers have an expectation of privacy in public while anything said around them in the same venue is public enough to use as evidence in a court of law sets up a dangerous double standard, and the legislatures of these states should put an end to the abuse of wiretap laws to squelch accountability.​
 
liberals may want to control society's behavior and that can have some tyrannical elements but conservatives more want to control and/or punish the behaviour of individuals in their personal lives and that has tyrannical elements as well.

And you base this on what? Your demonstratable lack of understanding of (and lack of willingness to understand) conservative thought or even the basic viewpoints from which ideology and (ultimately) policy is derived? You lack of skepticism in even blatant liberal attempts to smear conservatives?

You are only demonstrating your obtuseness, insufferable ignorance and intellectual bankruptcy when you make asinine comments like this.
 
You are only demonstrating your obtuseness, insufferable ignorance and intellectual bankruptcy when you make asinine comments like this.

I'm here for you man ;)

so you can yell at me :p

and we agree this is wrong
for the cops to arrest people.
 
You are only demonstrating your obtuseness, insufferable ignorance and intellectual bankruptcy when you make asinine comments like this.

'04 - wow - I don't think I have gotten the intellectual bankruptcy one yet - tell me what happens when they foreclose ;)
 
'04 - wow - I don't think I have gotten the intellectual bankruptcy one yet - tell me what happens when they foreclose ;)

Just watch the O'Reilly factor and pretend that he is talking to you every time someone disagrees with him.:D
 
And you base this on what? Your demonstratable lack of understanding of (and lack of willingness to understand) conservative thought or even the basic viewpoints from which ideology and (ultimately) policy is derived? You lack of skepticism in even blatant liberal attempts to smear conservatives?

You are only demonstrating your obtuseness, insufferable ignorance and intellectual bankruptcy when you make asinine comments like this.

I base this on an OPINION of my own observations over time.
I haven't read all the conservative and liberal how to jargon manuals like you.:rolleyes:
Of course an opinion is something you lack as the opinion tin man here (so and so from the Wizard of Oz has no heart, or brain or courage or in this case an opinion) so this may be confusing to you when I speak out of school...:p
 
'04 - wow - I don't think I have gotten the intellectual bankruptcy one yet - tell me what happens when they foreclose ;)

Maybe as conservative punishment for my impudence I'll have my brain eaten and absorbed into the Borg Collective LOL!
 
I just got a camera ticket for being IN an intersection when it turned red in Philadelphia. They can't give you points because there was no actual person witnessing it, yet they can give a $100 fine. They recently set back the standards from time a car is allowed in the intersection by a tenth or hundreth of a second, and they sent back some ridiculous number of tickets to be refunded, like hundreds of thousands of dollars. :q:q:q:q is completely out of control. Giving out tickets to support more unneeded technology, just snowballs out of control.
 

Members online

Back
Top