Best article I've read in a long time. Fleecing the Rich

So what's your plan for kicking the 'socialists' out of power in the next two elections?
I'm not sure it can happen. There's no leadership in the GOP, and there's no 3rd party even close to powerful enough to make a dent. Obama's got ACORN pumped full of FED money, and they'll make sure the votes add up.

The deck is stacked.
 
indeed. Such as not buying a newer car 'til you paid off your first..... or continuously using credit cards. Heck I only eat out if it's a special event..other than that i'm cooking every meal besides those I have protein shakes. Hell even protein shakes save money. For 80bucks I get a Optimum Nutrition Gold Standard 10lb protein bag that lasts me about 1-2 months. which is equivelant to $.25 per shake :-D or really pump you up with more scoops with a $.50 shake.
You've really gotten me thinking about this the last few days.
 
Well we will just have to disagree.
I think most people are on middle ground and are pulled one way or the other.

You say most people are middle ground.
Middle of what? Somewhere between liberty and fascism?
Some where between capitalism and communism?

But more importantly, are they on the middle regarding the constitution?
We should only apply it half of the time, the other half of the time use empathy and international law?

You would very likely argue that I'm "far right."
Despite that, I would bet that we would agree on at least about 80% of individual issues regarding politics and policy. And it'd probably be closer to 90% if we had a little time to discuss the idea. I say that provided that the subjects weren't framed or politicized by the media. Yet you think of yourself as "middle."
 
He's trying to save shelf space in the bunker.
:D

That's a good idea too.

Actually, I'm trying to get in super-shape and Pete's pointing out some good options for supplements. The fact that they're lower cost helps as well.
 
try Twin Lab's Potassium supplements (helps for lean body mass and getting rid of water weight) along with CLA amino acids. Both of them and a good eating routine (As I never say diet cause you are'nt gonna DIE for healthy eating) you can get in shape pretty good...some sport supplements help such as BSN's N.O.XPLODE
 
You say most people are middle ground.
Middle of what? Somewhere between liberty and fascism?
Some where between capitalism and communism?

But more importantly, are they on the middle regarding the constitution?
We should only apply it half of the time, the other half of the time use empathy and international law?

You would very likely argue that I'm "far right."
Despite that, I would bet that we would agree on at least about 80% of individual issues regarding politics and policy. And it'd probably be closer to 90% if we had a little time to discuss the idea. I say that provided that the subjects weren't framed or politicized by the media. Yet you think of yourself as "middle."

By middle I mean they believe in different parts of both parties.
Some might think the left is crazy the way they are spending money, but are prochoice.
Or some might believe that spending money to try to get the economy going is the right thing to do but are prolife. "like my mom" :)
There is middle ground.
The party that appeals to the middle ground is the one that gets in office.
But the middle ground shifts and changes as events occur and times change.

I don't think I'm in the middle.
I lean right.
Never have voted anything but republican.
So your right we would agree on most issues.
I do feel that the party is leaning soo far right that they don't appeal to the middle.
Thats why the left has the power.
 
I do feel that the party is leaning soo far right that they don't appeal to the middle.
Thats why the left has the power.
Uh-huh. That's why the GOP tried to pass amnesty, spent money like drunken sailors, and nominated John McCain for President. :rolleyes:

And look how well it worked.

Try again.
 
Calabrio licks my balls at night

if McCain chose someone besides RETARD PALIN he might of won the croud...but it's a bit hard since instead his campaign slogan is "Dumb and Dumber" hense McCain/Palin
 
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By middle I mean they believe in different parts of both parties.
Some might think the left is crazy the way they are spending money, but are prochoice.
Or some might believe that spending money to try to get the economy going is the right thing to do but are prolife. "like my mom" :)
There is middle ground.
The party that appeals to the middle ground is the one that gets in office.
But the middle ground shifts and changes as events occur and times change.

I don't think I'm in the middle.
I lean right.
Never have voted anything but republican.
So your right we would agree on most issues.
I do feel that the party is leaning soo far right that they don't appeal to the middle.
Thats why the left has the power.

Fossten made a good point. In many ways, the GOP has been dominated in more recent times by less then conservatives. Bush was a quazi-conservative at best, and McCain had a few conservative values, but could hardly be considered conservative. Amnesty, excessive spending, etc. all show that. Yet, when the "moderates" dominated, we start to suffer. Conservative principles have been shown to succeed at the ballot box (Reagan, contract with America). It is when conservatives start to sacrifice their values that that they start to lose. In fact, the two biggest issues that killed the GOP were Amnesty and their excessive spending in Washington, with the bailouts leading up to and including TARP that were the tipping point in the 2008 race.

You need to understand that there is a lot of mischaracterization of Conservative ideas, both by the pervasive left wing culture (through the MSM, academia, pop culture, the entertainment industry, etc) as well as more moderate Republicans. For instance, the abortion issue, and specifically how conservatives view it has been rather mischaracterized. It is made to seem that conservatives simply want to ban all abortions by any means necessary at the federal level. In fact, the left is working to do the reverse; enshrine abortion as a "right" by any means necessary. Conservatives want that decision made by the American people, not politicians. Preferably at the individual state level (in keeping with the concept of federalism that is in the constitution) but even a national amendment process would be better then through judicial fiat. Conservatives want to have the debate over it and let the people decide, but liberals have imposed their will unconstitutionally through the courts and then want to avoid and honest debate. But that aspect is lost in the debate and the conservative position is oversimplified to the point of mischaracterization. The same holds true for many conservative positions, especially the social ones.

You are right that, most often, the middle does decide the election (though the 2008 election was a possible exception). But, if a party attempts to gain their vote by simply pandering to them, then that is disingenuous and shows a lack of conviction. It is simply the easiest way to get someone's vote, but says a lot about the lack of character in the politician and/or party. Instead, make your case and convince someone of your position. Most of these people are in the middle because they haven't decided and, at least in my experience, are not as familiar with the various issues and, more importantly, the history and competing philosophies involved. If they are truly interested in making an informed decision, then they are going to be receptive to what you have to say, so you have an opportunity to convince them.

That was a large reason why McCain lost. He has a history of saying what he needs politically to gain favor. His political convictions are, in most cases, not very strong and can and will be cast aside for political expediency. Consequently, his overriding vision is not to coherent and seemed to counter some of his past. Obama's overriding vision, while vague, was coherent and there wasn't the scrutiny on his past (nor the record) that there was for McCain.

The thing is, while many voters are not in one camp or the other due to, frankly ignorance of the philosophical underpinnings behind the competing points of view, the same is not true of politicians. There are few people more familiar with the competing philosophies then federal level politicians. So, when they start taking positions from one side of the isle or the other (like McCain, or Specter) that is philosophically inconsistent and goes against some of the principles they espouse by claiming to subscribe to one ideology or the other. So, the question comes down to this; would you rather vote for someone with the strength of their convictions, or someone who will throw away their convictions at a moments notice for political expediency? When it comes to "moderate" politicians, those usually tend to be your choices.

There is also the fact that there is not overriding philosophy that an actual ideology, and thus party could form out of that is "in the middle" of conservatives and liberals. At best, you could get an ad hoc coalition of special interests that function as a party for a short time (the Reform party for example) but that wouldn't last due to not having an underlying philosophy that holds the group together.
 
if McCain chose someone besides RETARD PALIN he might of won the croud...but it's a bit hard since instead his campaign slogan is "Dumb and Dumber" hense McCain/Palin
Don't believe everything you read about Palin. She's an effective conservative governor, and the only reason I changed my mind and voted McCain. I was going Constitution Party until she was selected.

Come on, after all the Biden gaffes, you can't possibly think she's the dumbest.
 
Don't believe everything you read about Palin. She's an effective conservative governor, and the only reason I changed my mind and voted McCain. I was going Constitution Party until she was selected.

Come on, after all the Biden gaffes, you can't possibly think she's the dumbest.

i'd f*ck her and her daughter....but that's pretty much it...and the democrats focus on joe the plumber, tito the builder, dora the explorer....is f*cking downright retarded. What about the Americans with common sense?

Things were good for McCain til he chose Palin but then again I hate McCain/Biden cause they were the two biggest influences for why my older bro is going to prison for a minimum of 2yrs just because he USED anobolic steroids...and not competatively either :p
 
By middle I mean they believe in different parts of both parties.
We're doing ourselves a huge disservice by thinking in terms of "parties." Because, too often, that becomes a discussion about branding and marketing and not political philosophy or their leadership.

And before deleting it, I went through your post with the "quote/respond" technique and applied that same point through out. Your broad point really had little to do with issues, but marketing and image.

For the sake of the country, it'd be really constructive to be able to discuss policy and philosophy without having to do it within the paradigm of the two party system we have in place right now. We can come back to that though.

But on what issues was the Republican party actually "too far" to the right on? Where did they actually govern like that. The fact of the matter is, the failure of the party was that they didn't exercise that kind of fiscal and government responsibility that was expected of them. They were just Democrat-lite.

If your talking in terms of a big tent, or more accurately, the perception of their big tent, I think you might be right. Ideally, most of the problems and differences could be resolved by better explaining the principles of federalism.

Abortion is a tricky issue, because it's extremely reasonable to argue that the fetus is protected by constitutional rights, and thus not subject to being terminated or vacuumed out. So, just for the sake of discussion, let's leave that out of the conversation.

This goes back to an earlier post I made about the Republican party needed to run on a platform of liberty. Big government on the right (or the perception that it's what they want) isn't much better than liberal big government on the left.

Unfortunately, the education system in this country, frankly run and controlled by a political class, has failed successive generations by NOT teaching the basic principles and laws the country was founded on. How many times do you hear educated people say, "THIS IS A DEMOCRACY!" It's not. It's a representative republic, not a direct democracy. It's not mob rule. We have rule of law.

And even today, we hear about the need to nominate a supreme court justice who will apply the constitution based upon her personal experience and empathy for,what's presumed to be minorities and women. This is inherently unconstitutional. The justice system is supposed to be blind and administer justice without distinguishing race, religion, gender, or economic class. You'd think that all those journalists, the ones that were required to take a few poli-sci classes while getting their worthless degress, would know this.... but the vast majority of Poli-Sci majors don't even know who the vice-president....
 
Fossten made a good point. In many ways, the GOP has been dominated in more recent times by less then conservatives. Bush was a quazi-conservative at best, and McCain had a few conservative values, but could hardly be considered conservative. Amnesty, excessive spending, etc. all show that. Yet, when the "moderates" dominated, we start to suffer. Conservative principles have been shown to succeed at the ballot box (Reagan, contract with America). It is when conservatives start to sacrifice their values that that they start to lose. In fact, the two biggest issues that killed the GOP were Amnesty and their excessive spending in Washington, with the bailouts leading up to and including TARP that were the tipping point in the 2008 race.

You need to understand that there is a lot of mischaracterization of Conservative ideas, both by the pervasive left wing culture (through the MSM, academia, pop culture, the entertainment industry, etc) as well as more moderate Republicans. For instance, the abortion issue, and specifically how conservatives view it has been rather mischaracterized. It is made to seem that conservatives simply want to ban all abortions by any means necessary at the federal level. In fact, the left is working to do the reverse; enshrine abortion as a "right" by any means necessary. Conservatives want that decision made by the American people, not politicians. Preferably at the individual state level (in keeping with the concept of federalism that is in the constitution) but even a national amendment process would be better then through judicial fiat. Conservatives want to have the debate over it and let the people decide, but liberals have imposed their will unconstitutionally through the courts and then want to avoid and honest debate. But that aspect is lost in the debate and the conservative position is oversimplified to the point of mischaracterization. The same holds true for many conservative positions, especially the social ones.

You are right that, most often, the middle does decide the election (though the 2008 election was a possible exception). But, if a party attempts to gain their vote by simply pandering to them, then that is disingenuous and shows a lack of conviction. It is simply the easiest way to get someone's vote, but says a lot about the lack of character in the politician and/or party. Instead, make your case and convince someone of your position. Most of these people are in the middle because they haven't decided and, at least in my experience, are not as familiar with the various issues and, more importantly, the history and competing philosophies involved. If they are truly interested in making an informed decision, then they are going to be receptive to what you have to say, so you have an opportunity to convince them.

That was a large reason why McCain lost. He has a history of saying what he needs politically to gain favor. His political convictions are, in most cases, not very strong and can and will be cast aside for political expediency. Consequently, his overriding vision is not to coherent and seemed to counter some of his past. Obama's overriding vision, while vague, was coherent and there wasn't the scrutiny on his past (nor the record) that there was for McCain.

The thing is, while many voters are not in one camp or the other due to, frankly ignorance of the philosophical underpinnings behind the competing points of view, the same is not true of politicians. There are few people more familiar with the competing philosophies then federal level politicians. So, when they start taking positions from one side of the isle or the other (like McCain, or Specter) that is philosophically inconsistent and goes against some of the principles they espouse by claiming to subscribe to one ideology or the other. So, the question comes down to this; would you rather vote for someone with the strength of their convictions, or someone who will throw away their convictions at a moments notice for political expediency? When it comes to "moderate" politicians, those usually tend to be your choices.

There is also the fact that there is not overriding philosophy that an actual ideology, and thus party could form out of that is "in the middle" of conservatives and liberals. At best, you could get an ad hoc coalition of special interests that function as a party for a short time (the Reform party for example) but that wouldn't last due to not having an underlying philosophy that holds the group together.

I understand the point and your right…I think when any politician starts to sacrifice their values they wont be around long, people will see through it.

I haven’t thought enough about were social issues should be decided.
Like most people it’s just not that important to me.

The more I think about the last election, McCain would have lost no matter what.
I doubt that he lost because he is a "moderate" politician.
In this election I don’t think it would matter who the republicans put up, they would have lost.
The middle wanted change.
It was the perfect storm.

The middle will want change again, and power will shift.
As an example, we were attacked and another 9-11 happened.
A hard line conservative would win.

I guess it’s more my desire that the right comes more to the middle because that’s were my views are.
 
First you said...

I don't think I'm in the middle.
I lean right.

Never have voted anything but republican.
So your right we would agree on most issues.
Then you said...
The middle will want change again, and power will shift.
As an example, we were attacked and another 9-11 happened.
A hard line conservative would win.

I guess it’s more my desire that the right comes more to the middle because that’s were my views are.

Uh-huh.

Can't wait to see how you wriggle out of this.
 

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