BuSh lies again. How come he hasn't fired Rove as promised?

barry2952 said:
Iraq didn't attach us. Our buddies the Saudis provided the vast majority of the skyjackers. Why don't we go after their oppressive society? They torture and kill hundreds of their citizens and even provide torture to the US for a price. Women fared better in Iraq than in Saudi Arabia.

I acknowledge that Saddam is a bad man. Kind of a mini-Hitler. Yes the world is better off without him. Since BuSh could have make a valid case for attacking him for being a bad man why fabricate the information on WMD? Where was the urgency? Saddam was truly a limp-dick tyrant. He wasn't going anywhere. I was behind invading Afghanastan due to the proven link (video) of OBL. Where was the smoking gun that offered us GWB's link of Saddam to the terrortists that attacked this land?

Even if none of the WMD info was fabricated it was, indeed, the basis for my getting behind the effort. That is what got many of us behind the effort. I believe I was sold a bill of goods and an awful lot of us feel the same way. Like it or not that is my opinion.

While the end play may have been necessary, I believe we have been deceived by the President and all of his minions. I believe that GWB will be held accountable by the American People.

Here's an analogy for all you business people. Lets say you bought a company and kept all the current staff in place. Lets say this staff had been lying to the previous owner about the financial health of the business and now they continued to deceive you. They were able to do so because there was no external oversight to keep them in line so they used their skills to mask their past failures. Not uncommon. Everyone wants to keep their job.

The business is called on the carpet by the IRS and the business has to shut down when it is discovered that the business is a house of cards. Who would take the hit? The previous owner didn't know his staff was incompetent so you can't go after him. Actually you can but those efforts are rarely sucessful. The staff may have not known that they were incompetent, since this is often the case. The guy that takes the hit is the one that owns the company. He's the one with the ultimate responsibility. He is the one that has a duty to do due dilligance.

Do you believe that Ken Lay didn't know what was going on at Enron? If you do then it's possible that GWB didn't know what was really going on. The ultimate responsibility for the failure of the intelligence community may not fall on his shoulders but the fact that he used the information clearly makes him guilty of poor judgement, which he has failed to admit to.

That would probably be all that would be necessary to get a lot of people back in his camp. Just own up to the mistake and go forward. Continued cover-up is wrecking the national view of the whole political process and the rift is getting wider. GWB promised to be The Great Uniter. When is that going to happen?

Your essay isn't at all persuasive that ANYTHING was "going on." It's simply conjecture. You have less basis for your theory that this was a huge conspiracy than Bush supposedly had for going into Iraq over WMDs.

Where is your "smoking gun?"
 
"Correcting the Record on Valerie Plame"

Correcting the Record on Valerie Plame
By Larry C. Johnson
t r u t h o u t | Statement

Friday 22 July 2005

Copy of my testimony to be presented on Friday, 22 July 2005 before a joint session of Congressional Democrats.

I submit this statement to the Congress in an effort to correct a malicious and disingenuous smear campaign that has been executed against a friend and former colleague, Valerie (Plame) Wilson. Neither Valerie, nor her husband, Ambassador Joseph Wilson has asked me to do anything on their behalf. I am speaking up because I was raised to stop bullies. In the case of Valerie Plame she is facing a gang of bullies that is being directed by the Republican National Committee.

I entered on duty at the CIA in September 1985 as a member of the Career Trainee Program. Senator Orin Hatch had written a letter of recommendation on my behalf and I believe that helped open the doors to me at the CIA. From the first day all members of my training class were undercover. In other words, we had to lie to our family and friends about where we worked. We could only tell those who had an absolute need to know where we worked. In my case, I told my wife. Most of us were given official cover, which means that on paper we worked for some other US Government Agency. People with official cover enjoy the benefits of an official passport, usually a black passport - i.e., a diplomatic passport. If we were caught overseas engaged in espionage activity the black passport was a get out of jail free card. It accords the bearer the protections of the Geneva Convention.

Valerie Plame was a classmate of mine from the day she started with the CIA. At the time I only knew her as Valerie P. Even though all of us in the training class held Top Secret Clearances, we were asked to limit our knowledge of our other classmates to the first initial of their last name. So, Larry J. knew Val P. rather than Valerie Plame. Her name did not become a part of my consciousness until her cover was betrayed by the Government officials who gave columnist Robert Novak her true name.

Although Val started off with official cover, she later joined a select group of intelligence officers a few years later when she became a NOC, i.e. a Non-Official Cover officer. That meant she agreed to operate overseas without the protection of a diplomatic passport. She was using cover, which we now know because of the leak to Robert Novak, of the consulting firm Brewster-Jennings. When she traveled overseas she did not use or have an official passport. If she had been caught engaged in espionage activities while traveling overseas without the black passport she could have been executed.

We must put to bed the lie that she was not undercover. For starters, if she had not been undercover then the CIA would not have referred the matter to the Justice Department. Some reports, such as one in the Washington Times that Valerie Plame's supervisor at the CIA, Fred Rustman, said she told friends and family she worked at the CIA and that her cover was light. These claims are not true. Rustman, who supervised Val in one of her earliest assignments, left the CIA in 1990 and did not stay in social contact with Valerie. His knowledge of Val's cover is dated. He does not know what she has done during the past 15 years.

Val only told those with a need to know about her status in order to safeguard her cover, not compromise it. Val has never been a flamboyant, insecure person who felt the need to tell people what her "real" job was. She was content with being known as an energy consultant married to Joe Wilson and the mother of twins. Despite the repeated claims of representatives for the Republican National Committee, the Wilson's neighbors did not know where Valerie really worked until Novak's op-ed appeared. I would note that not a single member of our training class has come forward to denounce Valerie or question her bona fides. To the contrary, those we have talked to have endorsed what those of us who have left the CIA are doing to defend her reputation and honor.

As noted in the joint letter submitted to Congressional leaders earlier this week, the RNC is repeating the lie that Valerie was nothing more than a glorified desk jockey and could not possibly have any cover worth protecting. To those such as Victoria Toensing, Representative Peter King, P.J. O'Rourke, and Representative Roy Blunt I can only say one thing - you are wrong. I am stunned that some political leaders have such ignorance about a matter so basic to the national security structure of this nation. Robert Novak's compromise of Valerie caused even more damage. It subsequently led to scrutiny of her cover company. This not only compromised her "cover" company but potentially every individual overseas who had been in contact with that company or with her.

Another false claim is that Valerie sent her husband on the mission to Niger. According to the Senate Intelligence Committee Report issued in July 2004, it is clear that the Vice President himself requested that the CIA provide its views on a Defense Intelligence Agency report that Iraq was trying to acquire uranium from Niger. The Vice President's request was relayed through the CIA bureaucracy to the Director of the Counter Proliferation Division at the CIA. Valerie worked for a branch in that Division.

The Senate Intelligence Report is frequently cited by Republican partisans as "proof" that Valerie sent her husband to Niger because she sent a memo describing her husband's qualifications to the Deputy Division Chief. Several news personalities, such as Chris Matthews and Bill O'Reilly continue to repeat this nonsense as proof. What the Senate Intelligence Committee does not include in the report is the fact that Valerie's boss had asked her to write a memo outlining her husband's qualifications for the job. She did what any good employee does; she gave her boss what he asked for.

The decision to send Joe Wilson on the mission to Niger was made by Valerie's bosses. She did not have the authority to sign travel vouchers, issue travel orders, or expend one dime of US taxpayer dollars on her own. Yet, she has been singled out by the Republican National Committee and its partisans as a legitimate target of attack. It was Karl Rove who told Chris Matthews, "Wilson's wife is fair game."

What makes the unjustified and inappropriate attacks on Valerie Plame and her reputation so unfair is that there was no Administration policy position stipulating that Iraq was trying to acquire uranium in February 2002. That issue was still up in the air and, as noted by SSCI, Vice President Cheney himself asked for more information.

At the end of the day we are left with these facts. We went to war in Iraq on the premise that Saddam was reacquiring weapons of mass destruction. Joe Wilson was sent on a mission to Niger in response to a request initiated by the Vice President. Joe Wilson supplied information to the CIA that supported other reports debunking the claim that Saddam was trying to buy yellow cake uranium from Niger. When Joe went public with his information, which had been corroborated by the CIA in April 2003, the response from the White House was to call him a liar and spread the name of his wife around. We sit here more than two years later and the storm of invective and smear against Ambassador Wilson and his wife, Valerie, continues. I voted for George Bush in November of 2000 because I wanted a President who knew what the meaning of "is" was. I was tired of political operatives who spent endless hours on cable news channels parsing words. I was promised a President who would bring a new tone and new ethical standards to Washington.

So where are we? The President has flip flopped and backed away from his promise to fire anyone at the White House implicated in a leak. We now know from press reports that at least Karl Rove and Scooter Libby are implicated in these leaks. Instead of a President concerned first and foremost with protecting this country and the intelligence officers who serve it, we are confronted with a President who is willing to sit by while political operatives savage the reputations of good Americans like Valerie and Joe Wilson. This is wrong.

Without firm action by President Bush to return to those principles he promised to follow when he came to Washington, I fear our political debate in this country will degenerate into an argument about what the meaning of "leak" is. We deserve people who work in the White House who are committed to protecting classified information, telling the truth to the American people, and living by example the idea that a country at war with Islamic extremists cannot expend its efforts attacking other American citizens who simply tried to tell the truth.

Right On!!!!!!
 
Key phrase: "Copy of my testimony to be presented on Friday, 22 July 2005 before a joint session of Congressional Democrats."

truthout.com has no more credibility than moveon.org, which is also nothing more than a screeching, Bush-hating, liberal mouthpiece.

More opinions. Still no more facts than what we already know.
 
fossten said:
Key phrase: "Copy of my testimony to be presented on Friday, 22 July 2005 before a joint session of Congressional Democrats."

truthout.com has no more credibility than moveon.org, which is also nothing more than a screeching, Bush-hating, liberal mouthpiece.

More opinions. Still no more facts than what we already know.

Typical bu:q:q:q:q response. You know nothing of this persons career or character but you are willing to condemn their testimony because it makes Shrub look bad. A person who truly cares about this country would hope that the people who work in our intelligence gathering community in particular, but hopefully all branches of government, would be conscientious and honest about the performance of their job and do the best according to their abilities. But you, without knowing anything about this person, are willing to condemn their testimony based solely on the fact that A) It was presented before a joint session of Congressional Democrats, and B) your opinion that Truthout has no credibility.
That is why I submit that you are a Repug Depends diaper, absorbing the :q:q:q:q that the Repug machine spews out and stinking things up for the shear purpose of distracting from any efforts to get to the truth of what really happened. You use typical Repug tactics in responding to any article or post that questions the actions/character of Shrub---you attack the author or posting party. Childish at best.
 
Phil,

I know this guy pisses you off. I can certainly understand. Your eloquence is only overshadowed by your ability to hit the nail on the head but we need to ratchet things down a notch. Please say thay IMHO _______ is a ..............
 
I can see that I get under all three of your shriveled little skins. However, the same goes for you. When all you post are articles by shrill Bush-haters like Paul Krugman or anyone-from-moveon.org, it all gets lumped together IMHO. I wasn't speaking to the credibility of the person who wrote the article, I questioned the credibility of the sponsor (IF YOU GO BACK AND RE-READ THE POST, ASSUMING YOU CAN READ OR EVEN DID READ IT IN THE FIRST PLACE). But the author didn't even cite solid evidence to back up his claims. He only stated his opinion.

Furthermore, the date on his article is 7/22, which is Friday, so the so-called Repug machine hadn't even had time to influence me yet, since this news hasn't even been made yet. So you have no basis with which to claim that I've been told what to think about this particular incident.

Truth is, I don't know what to think about it yet. But I do know what I think of that :bsflag: website.

Talk about putting words in someone's mouth! I would call you Spinmaster, except you're not even good at it. I think I'll call you...Spinster.
 
Denial after denial after denial in the face of countless evidence coming to light in the public eye pointing to the shenanagans going on at the White House. Proof that for the BuSh administration and his glazed-eyed, shrub-hazed followers, "ignorance is bliss".
 
Time-Out...Married Man joke.

A man walks into a drug store with his 8-year old son. They happen to walk by the condom display, and the boy asks, 'What are these, Dad?'

To which the man matter-of-factly replies, 'Those are called condoms, son.... Men use them to have safe sex.'

'Oh I see,' replied the boys pensively. 'Yes, I've heard of that in health class at school.' He looks over the display and picks up a package of 3 and asks, 'Why are there 3 in this package.'

The dad replies, 'Those are for high school boys. One for Friday, one for Saturday, and one for Sunday.'

'Cool!' says the boy. He notices a 6 pack and asks, 'Then who are these for?' 'Those are for college men.' the dad answers, 'TWO for Friday, TWO for Saturday, and TWO for Sunday.'

'WOW!' exclaimed the boy, 'then who uses THESE?' he asks, picking up a 12 pack. With a sigh, the dad replied, 'Those are for married men. One for January, one for February, one for March…'

 
Today, the Senate Democratic Policy Council and the Democratic side of the House Government Reform Committee held an unofficial hearing in the Senate Dirksen Office Building, in which former intelligence professionals discussed the Plame/CIA leak, especially its impact on the intelligence community, current officers, and Valerie Wilson. (The Democrats had no choice but to hold such a session because the Republicans in the House and Senate refuse to examine or investigate the leak.)



Testimony of James Marcinkowski
former CIA case office and a former prosecutor
July 22, 2005

What is important now is not who wins or loses the political battle or who may or may not be indicted; rather, it is a question of how we will go about protecting the citizens of this country in a very dangerous world. The undisputed fact is that we have irreparably damaged our capability to collect human intelligence and thereby significantly diminished our capability to protect the American people.

Understandable to all Americans is a simple, incontrovertible, but damning truth: the United States government exposed the identity of a clandestine officer working for the CIA. This is not just another partisan "dust-up" between political parties. This unprecedented act will have far-reaching consequences for covert operations around the world. Equally disastrous is that from the time of that first damning act, we have continued on a course of self-inflicted wounds by government officials who have refused to take any responsibility, have played hide-and-seek with the truth and engaged in semantic parlor games for more than two years, all at the expense of the safety of the American people. No government official has that right.

For an understanding of what is at stake it is important to understand some fundamental principles. No country or hostile group, from al Qaeda to any drug rings operating in our cities, likes to be infiltrated or spied upon. The CIA, much like any police department in any city, has undercover officers--spies, that use "cover."

To operate under "cover" means you use some ruse to cloak both your identity and your intentions. The degree of cover needed to carry out any operation varies depending on the target of the investigation. A police officer performing "street buys" uses a "light" cover, meaning he or she could pose as something as simple as a drug user, operate only at night and during the day and, believe it or not, have a desk job in the police station. On the other hand, if an attempt were made to infiltrate a crime syndicate, visiting the local police station or drinking with fellow FBI agents after work may be out of the question. In any scenario, your cover, no matter what the degree, provides personal protection and safety. But it does not end there. Cover is also used to protect collection methodology as well as any innocent persons a CIA officer may have regular contact with, such as overseas acquaintances, friends, and even other U.S. government officials.

While cover provides a degree of safety for the case officer, it also provides security for that officer's informants or agents. In most human intelligence operations, the confidentiality of the cover used by a CIA officer and the personal security of the agent or asset is mutually dependent. A case officer cannot be identified as working for the CIA, just as the informant/agent cannot be identified as working for the CIA through the case officer. If an informant or agent is exposed as working for the CIA, there is a good chance that the CIA officer has been identified as well. Similarly, if the CIA officer is exposed, his or her agents or informants are exposed. In all cases, the cover of a case officer ensures not only his or her own personal safety but that of the agents or assets as well.

The exposure of Valerie Plame's cover by the White House is the same as the local chief of police announcing to the media the identity of its undercover drug officers. In both cases, the ability of the officer to operate is destroyed, but there is also an added dimension. An informant in a major sophisticated crime network, or a CIA asset working in a foreign government, if exposed, has a rather good chance of losing more than just their ability to operate.

Any undercover officer, whether in the police department or the CIA, will tell you that the major concern of their informant or agent is their personal safety and that of their family. Cover is safety. If you cannot guarantee that safety in some form or other, the person will not work for you and the source of important information will be lost.

So how is the Valerie Plame incident perceived by any current or potential agent of the CIA? I will guarantee you that if the local police chief identified the names of the department's undercover officers, any half-way sophisticated undercover operation would come to a halt and if he survived that accidental discharge of a weapon in police headquarters, would be asked to retire.

And so the real issues before this Congress and this country today is not partisan politics, not even the loss of secrets. The secrets of Valerie Plame's cover are long gone. What has suffered perhaps irreversible damage is the credibility of our case officers when they try to convince our overseas contact that their safety is of primary importance to us. How are our case officers supposed to build and maintain that confidence when their own government cannot even guarantee the personal protection of the home team? While the loss of secrets in the world of espionage may be damaging, the stealing of the credibility of our CIA officers is unforgivable....

And so we are left with only one fundamental truth, the U.S. government exposed the identity of a covert operative. I am not convinced that the toothpaste can be put back into the tube. Great damage has been done and that damage has been increasing every single day for more than two years. The problem of the refusal to accept responsibility by senior government officials is ongoing and causing greater damage to our national security and our ability to collect human intelligence. But the problem lies not only with government officials but also with the media, commentators and other apologists who have no clue as to the workings of the intelligence community. Think about what we are doing from the perspective of our overseas human intelligence assets or potential assets.

I believe Bob Novak when he credited senior administration officials for the initial leak, or the simple, but not insignificant confirmation of that secret information, as I believe a CIA officer in some far away country will lose an opportunity to recruit an asset that may be of invaluable service to our covert war on terror because "promises of protection" will no longer carry the level of trust they once had.

Each time the leader of a political party opens his mouth in public to deflect responsibility, the word overseas is loud and clear--politics in this country does in fact trump national security.

Each time a distinguished ambassador is ruthlessly attacked for the information he provided, a foreign asset will contemplate why he should risk his life when his information will not be taken seriously.

Each time there is a perceived political "success" in deflecting responsibility by debating or re-debating some minutia, such actions are equally effective in undermining the ability of this country to protect itself against its enemies, because the two are indeed related. Each time the political machine made up of prime-time patriots and partisan ninnies display their ignorance by deriding Valerie Plame as a mere "paper-pusher," or belittling the varying degrees of cover used to protect our officers, or continuing to play partisan politics with our national security, it is a disservice to this country. By ridiculing, for example, the "degree" of cover or the use of post office boxes, you lessen the level of confidence that foreign nationals place in our covert capabilities.

Those who would advocate the "I'm ok, you're ok" politics of non-responsibility, should probably think about the impact of those actions on our foreign agents. Non-responsibility means we don't care. Not caring means a loss of security. A loss of security means a loss of an agent. The loss of an agent means the loss of information. The loss of information means an increase in the risk to the people of the United States.

There is a very serious message here. Before you shine up your American flag lapel pin and affix your patriotism to your sleeve, think about what the impact your actions will have on the security of the American people. Think about whether your partisan obfuscation is creating confidence in the United States in general and the CIA in particular. If not, a true patriot would shut up.

Those who take pride in their political ability to divert the issue from the fundamental truth ought to be prepared to take their share of the responsibility for the continuing damage done to our national security.

When this unprecedented act first occurred, the president could have immediately demanded the resignation of all persons even tangentially involved. Or, at a minimum, he could have suspended the security clearances of these persons and placed them on administrative leave. Such methods are routine with police forces throughout the country. That would have at least sent the right message around the globe, that we take the security of those risking their lives on behalf of the United States seriously. Instead, we have flooded the foreign airwaves with two years of inaction, political rhetoric, ignorance, and partisan bickering. That's the wrong message. In doing so we have not lessened, but increased the threat to the security and safety of the people of the United States.
 
97silverlsc said:
The undisputed fact is that we have irreparably damaged our capability to collect human intelligence and thereby significantly diminished our capability to protect the American people.
Stop right there. She hadn't been covert for over 6 years so exactly how valuable was she. Come on. Keep grasping at straws. Her husband, who by-the-way, in my not humble opinion, is a pathological liar, has done more to harm this country by continuing to carry on this charade than any 'slip of the tongue performed by Rove and Libby'.
 
MonsterMark said:
Stop right there. She hadn't been covert for over 6 years so exactly how valuable was she. Come on. Keep grasping at straws. Her husband, who by-the-way, in my not humble opinion, is a pathological liar, has done more to harm this country by continuing to carry on this charade than any 'slip of the tongue performed by Rove and Libby'.

Can you for once STOP exploiting the technicalities of this issue and look at the broader picture? Do you see NOTHING WRONG w/ our government officials exposing identities of even once-covert CIA agents? Is the damage done to our covert capabilities from this leak so hard for you to comprehend? Does one damaging, possibly un-truthful report about the Iraq-Niger nuclear issue justify putting the AMERICAN CITIZENS ONE IOTA MORE AT RISK??? :Bang :Bang

"Artful dodgers".
 
JohnnyBz00LS said:
:Bang :Bang
You better stop smashing your head against the wall or you might cause brain damage.

Nobody knows all the facts so why don't we wait to see what the special prosecutor comes up with. If indeed an individual in the White House is responsible, believe me, us conservatives will make that head roll. We are just not willing to chop it off based on a witch hunt.

Now that it appears the facts don't support the ability to convict based on the actual committal of a crime, the prosecutor is now exploring perjury issues. So let's wait and see. Personally, I think Rove was set up by a POS liberal reporter who took the tiny bit of info he could get and blew it into a story. That is what I think will come out. Rove participated but this reporter blew up the story and turned it into a 'White House is out to get this guy' story which was not the original intent. Just more lies and distortions from the left to 'get' this President. Reminds one of RatherGate, doesn't it?
 
JohnnyBz00LS said:
Can you for once STOP exploiting the technicalities of this issue and look at the broader picture? Do you see NOTHING WRONG w/ our government officials exposing identities of even once-covert CIA agents? Is the damage done to our covert capabilities from this leak so hard for you to comprehend?
Sure, I can see the dangers. In return, can you not see that this thing has been blown way, way, way out of proportion? If I can see the dirty politics of this on the right, can you see the dirty politics of this on the left?
 
I'm with Bryan on this one. Let's wait and see if the Republican side calls for someone's head. If someone has pujured themselves or are technically guilty of outing an agent and the Republicans don't act they will suffer the loss of many more of their supporters.
 
Shub clarifies leak position

Bush Vows To Fire Anyone Who Revealed CIA Agent In Skywriting

Skewpoint with Cybersatirist Bob Hirschfeld
President Bush said he will immediately fire any White House personnel determined to have leaked a CIA agent’s name through the use of sky writing.

“If the independent investigation proves that any member of my staff hired a plane to scrawl the name of a covert agent across the skies of Washington, they will no longer be employed at the White House,” Bush told reporters.

This slightly alters the president’s original promise to fire anyone involved in leaking the name, but the Republican National Committee immediately issued a press release hailing Bush for setting a new standard for legal and ethical behavior at the White House.

At the White House, press secretary Scott McClellan was asked why the president altered his criteria for firing, but McClellan merely held up a sign explaining that he just had extensive root canal and would be unable to speak for several days.
 
Nothing would change. We would just have the puppeteer instead of the puppet.
 
barry2952 said:
Nothing would change. We would just have the puppeteer instead of the puppet.

True, but the humiliation of GWB would be worth it. Besides Cheney will be walking the halls of the white house with his tail between his legs (like he was back in the '60s) after seeing his buddy get the smack-down.
 
JohnnyBz00LS said:
True, but the humiliation of GWB would be worth it. Besides Cheney will be walking the halls of the white house with his tail between his legs (like he was back in the '60s) after seeing his buddy get the smack-down.

You guys just keep dreaming those pipe (induced) dreams while the rest of us go get a life.

:sleep:
 

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