Bush's Approval Rating Hits New High

For once, :I

I've got two words for anyone who thinks "their" religion is more suited in our "government" than any other religion. "Priest" and "molestation".

That's great stuff! Speaking as a Catholic I definately don't agree with some of the things that have "come out of the closet" in regards to The Catholic Church. I am definately not naive enough to think that these things haven't been going on for years before the popularity of the liberal media and shock news either.

However, you take the basis of a faith and not the mortal representatives of the faith to model your life and become a responsible citizen.

In the end, you are either on the "Right Side" of the fence or the "Wrong Side" and even though I like to gamble on some things I am not willing to gamble on eternity.
 
Read the preamble to the Bill of Rights. It states the reasons for and spirit of the Amendments.

I have, many times. I know very well what the Framers ment, and what they didn't mean by the first amendment and the two religious clauses. I have even gone farther and read the Federalist papers, as well as the original proposed wording for the 1st amendment, among other relevant writings. :eek:


Dude, the framers totally excluded religion from the cognizance of the federal authorities. Religion, as the word is used in the Constitution means "the duty we owe our Creator and the methods of discharging it." It does not mean "a Church of America."

DUDE....what? you are gonna have to explain that one. Where is your contextual basis for religion being understood by that definition (the duty we owe our Creator and the methods of discharging it) by the Framers? Religion is an idea and a belief system, not a responsibility. The Framers never intended the church to be "beyond the authority" of the government. Laws are still applicable to the church, and religion.

Freedom of religion means freedom from human authority over religion and especially civil authority.

Laws still apply. Read the Supreme Court opinion in the case of Employment Division of Oregon v. Smith (1990). The court opinion was authored (brilliantly) by Scalia.

Religion is given a privileged status (like the media) but it is not beyond the law.

Distorted? How? When? By whom?

The Supreme Court, specifically in the early to mid 20th century. The used the legal fiction called"incorporation" to apply the bill of rights to the states.

They also made a "wall of separation" into law, even though that was no where in the founding document nor was it the intent of the Framers.

There were, and are many others who work to distort what the 1st amendment said and means in regards to religion.
 
I have, many times. I know very well what the Framers ment, and what they didn't mean by the first amendment and the two religious clauses.

What methodology did you employ to ascertain what they meant?
 
Mick posted

Dude, the framers totally excluded religion from the cognizance of the federal authorities. Religion, as the word is used in the Constitution means "the duty we owe our Creator and the methods of discharging it." It does not mean "a Church of America."

Shag posted

DUDE....what? you are gonna have to explain that one. Where is your contextual basis for religion being understood by that definition (the duty we owe our Creator and the methods of discharging it) by the Framers? Religion is an idea and a belief system, not a responsibility. The Framers never intended the church to be "beyond the authority" of the government. Laws are still applicable to the church, and religion.

Are you familiar with the common law rules of construction, as they existed when the Constitution was being made?
 
They also made a "wall of separation" into law, even though that was no where in the founding document nor was it the intent of the Framers.

The lawmakers could be said to have built a wall of separation between religion and civil authority by establishing a limited government with no power whatsoever over religion.
 
The lawmakers could be said to have built a wall of separation between religion and civil authority by establishing a limited government with no power whatsoever over religion.

You could say that, but you would be wrong. There is not wall of separation in the constitution. Do you even know the origins of that phrase?
 
You could say that, but you would be wrong.

What rules and principles of Constitutional Interpretation did you follow to arrive that conclusion?

There is not wall of separation in the constitution.

Have you a better metaphor for the Constitution's exemption of religion from the cognizance of the federal authorities? James Burgh's "wall" metaphor is superior to Saint George Tucker's "mounds of separation, don't you think?

Do you even know the origins of that phrase?

I know the Constitution wasn't adopted with the understanding it would be construed according to phrases coined after it was adopted, the actions of the First U. S. Congress or those of the First President of the United States.
 
No...explain it.

The common law rules of construction were rules, some dating back to the 1500's, established by the English Courts. They were universally accepted at the time the Constitution was being made. The lawmakers assumed, understood and took for granted that the rules would be used to interpret the words of the Constitution.

The rules were contained in judicial opinions. However, Blackstone's famous Commentaries, published in America in the early 1770's, organized the common law for the first time, thus making it much easier for American lawyers and judges to find the common law pertaining to a particular legal issue.

There are numerous instances, during the making of the Constitution, of the lawmakers and others assuming that the words of the Constitution would be construed according to the rules of construction.
 
The common law rules of construction were rules, some dating back to the 1500's, established by the English Courts. They were universally accepted at the time the Constitution was being made. The lawmakers assumed, understood and took for granted that the rules would be used to interpret the words of the Constitution.

The rules were contained in judicial opinions. However, Blackstone's famous Commentaries, published in America in the early 1770's, organized the common law for the first time, thus making it much easier for American lawyers and judges to find the common law pertaining to a particular legal issue.

There are numerous instances, during the making of the Constitution, of the lawmakers and others assuming that the words of the Constitution would be construed according to the rules of construction.
Fascinating discussion. Although the mental jousting is impressive, it's a little hard to digest. A simple example of what you're talking about in layman's terms would be greatly appreciated. :Beer
 
Fascinating discussion. Although the mental jousting is impressive, it's a little hard to digest. A simple example of what you're talking about in layman's terms would be greatly appreciated. :Beer

In order to recognize when the lawmakers are assuming that the rules would be used, you first have to know what the rules were. I'll start with the first rule which says that, "Words are generally to be understood in their usual and most known signification; not so much regarding the propriety of grammar, as their general and popular use."

During the convention that framed the Constitution, the following discussion took place regard whether to use the word "inhabitant" or the word "resident" in the provision that eventually became the one that established the qualifications for a member of the House of Representatives. James Madison makes a statement indicating that he assumes the words of the Constitution would be understood generally according to their "common acceptation", which was just another way, first used by Thomas Rutherforth, of saying that words should be understood "in their usual and most known signification" or "their general and popular use."

Art IV. Sect. 2 [FN1], [FN5] taken up.

Col. MASON was for opening a wide door for emigrants; but did not chuse to let foreigners and adventurers make laws for us & govern us. Citizenship for three years was not enough for ensuring that local knowledge which ought to be possessed by the Representative. This was the principal ground of his objection to so short a term. It might also happen that a rich foreign Nation, for example Great Britain, might send over her tools who might bribe their way into the Legislature for insidious purposes. He moved that "seven" years instead of "three," be inserted.

Mr. Govr. MORRIS 2ded. the Motion, & on the question, all the States agreed to it except Connecticut.

Mr. SHERMAN moved to strike out the word "resident" and insert "inhabitant," as less liable to miscontruction.

Mr. MADISON 2ded. the motion, both were vague, but the latter least so in common acceptation, and would not exclude persons absent occasionally for a considerable time on public or private business. Great disputes had been raised in Virga. concerning the meaning of residence as a qualification of Representatives which were determined more according to the affection or dislike to the man in question, than to any fixt interpretation of the word.

 
The common law rules of construction were rules, some dating back to the 1500's, established by the English Courts. They were universally accepted at the time the Constitution was being made. The lawmakers assumed, understood and took for granted that the rules would be used to interpret the words of the Constitution.

The rules were contained in judicial opinions. However, Blackstone's famous Commentaries, published in America in the early 1770's, organized the common law for the first time, thus making it much easier for American lawyers and judges to find the common law pertaining to a particular legal issue.

There are numerous instances, during the making of the Constitution, of the lawmakers and others assuming that the words of the Constitution would be construed according to the rules of construction.

Ok, I see. That whole "rule of construction" thing threw me. You are saying that, since the basis for much of our legal system is in british common law (except of Louisiana), the there should be a "benefit of clergy" as that was part of the common law system then. I honestly hadn't heard the term "benefit of clergy" before, so I researched a bit. Turns out the idea changed a lot over it's lifetime. By the time of the American revolution, it was avalible to everyone as, more or less a first time offender plea for leniency or partial clemency. It was also by this point, limited to certian crimes. Britian did away with the benefit of clergy in 1827. Congress did away with it in 1790, for the federal courts. The benefit lasted in various states until the mid 1800's and may even remain technically available in some states today. "While many states have abolished clergy by statute or judicial decision, in some it has simply fallen into disuse without formal abolition."

Considering the incorporation of the 1st amendment and its religious clauses, I would say that, effectly, no, there is no legal "benefit of clergy" in this country today.
 
Ok, I see. That whole "rule of construction" thing threw me. You are saying that, since the basis for much of our legal system is in british common law (except of Louisiana), the there should be a "benefit of clergy" as that was part of the common law system then. I honestly hadn't heard the term "benefit of clergy" before, so I researched a bit. Turns out the idea changed a lot over it's lifetime. By the time of the American revolution, it was avalible to everyone as, more or less a first time offender plea for leniency or partial clemency. It was also by this point, limited to certian crimes. Britian did away with the benefit of clergy in 1827. Congress did away with it in 1790, for the federal courts. The benefit lasted in various states until the mid 1800's and may even remain technically available in some states today. "While many states have abolished clergy by statute or judicial decision, in some it has simply fallen into disuse without formal abolition."

Considering the incorporation of the 1st amendment and its religious clauses, I would say that, effectly, no, there is no legal "benefit of clergy" in this country today.

I was just kidding about "benefit of clergy" being part of U. S. law.
 
Here's another example of the lawmakers, during the making of the Constitution, assuming that the common law rules of construction applied to the Constitution.

During the Constitutional Convention, when discussing whether the legal term "ex post facto law" included both civil law and criminal law, delegate John Dickinson announced that he had consulted his Blackstone and found that the illegitimacy of ex post facto laws applied only in criminal cases.

Dickinson probably determined that the first two rules of construction - regarding the "usual and most known" meaning of a word and the "context" of the word - wouldn't enable a judge to ascertain the meaning of "ex post facto law."

Dickinson knew a judge would then apply the third rule which says,"as to the subject matter, words are always to be understood as having a regard thereto..."

Dickinson didn't consult Blackstone's Commentaries because Blackstone was the "subject matter." However, Blackstone's book is where Dickinson found what the "subject matter" (English statutes and judicial opinions) said about the subject of "ex post facto."

Blackstone's book made it easy for Dickinson to find what the statutes and judicial opinions said about the meaning of the term. Before Blackstone organized the English Law, one had to dig through hundreds of years of judicial opinions to find the law.

Here is what he may have found in Blackstone's Commentaries which convinced Dickinson that the term "related to criminal cases only."

There is still a more unreasonable method than this, which is called making of laws ex post facto; when after an action is committed, the legislator then for the first time declares it to have been a crime, and inflicts a punishment upon the person who has committed it; here it is impossible that the party could foresee that an action, innocent when it was done, should be afterwards converted to guilt by a subsequent law; he had therefore no cause to abstain from it; and all punishment for not abstaining must of consequence be cruel and unjust.

 
ohh, ok. I had never heard the term before...
You had my interest piqued.

I was trying to be funny. I forgot that most people have no idea what "benefit of clergy" was. I believe the U. S. Congress, rather early on, explicitly forbid the practice.
 
Yes these days the only benefit of clergy reference would be an unmarried couple living together without benefit of clergy ie being married.
Interesting history and a reverse religious discrimination
giving people a pass on punishment because they mention God.
Kinda brings molesting pedo priests to mind who for many years got away with their crimes against children because they were clergymen.
So one could say that pedophilia was the last crime benefit of clergy was extended to which shows how f---ked up religion can sometimes be.
 

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