Charging System Question
- Thread starter BobLS
- Start date
ajv8
Well-Known LVC Member
gen 2 alternator and change the connectors. it has the same control structure. pwr genmon gencom
A lot of complication with a second battery and/or a second alternator?
I would get the factory unit rebuilt with a higher output? Maybe a higher output alternator?
Is 160 A enough?
This one is listed for the 2000-2002 LS. V-8 Engine I think?
160A Alternator
Cost of course is always a problem. This one is $340
They do have a 200A model but at $441 it's getting expensive!
200A Alternator
If you have the V-6 they also have a 200A model and it is cheaper at $360.
200A V-6 Alternator
They even have 220A versions if needed? This is for the V-8 and is almost $500.
220A Alternator
So lot's of choices.
.
.
.
I would get the factory unit rebuilt with a higher output? Maybe a higher output alternator?
Is 160 A enough?
This one is listed for the 2000-2002 LS. V-8 Engine I think?
160A Alternator
Cost of course is always a problem. This one is $340
They do have a 200A model but at $441 it's getting expensive!
200A Alternator
If you have the V-6 they also have a 200A model and it is cheaper at $360.
200A V-6 Alternator
They even have 220A versions if needed? This is for the V-8 and is almost $500.
220A Alternator
So lot's of choices.
.
.
.
This has been attempted in the past, usually ends up not working or being limited to working like stock due to the pcm controlling the output. If there was an actual confirmed working drop in replacement, I'd go for it, but from what I can tell, there isn't. As I stated in the beginning, money isn't my concern with this car anymore, is that a bad thing? Probably, but I'm experimenting with this car, seeing what workarounds I can come up with and testing them out myself, which inherently isn't very "cost effective".
Black_Sunshine
Active LVC Member
Just FYI - I know you are going with a different, high amperage fan. With my gen 1, I put in a gen 2 electric fan from a 2003 model. At first, I used a thermostat to control the fan, and it was all-or-nothing, and in low speed traffic it would start driving the car’s voltage down. I have since changed the fan to one of Oddball’s PWM adaptor boards, and it runs the fan at lower speeds. As a result, the car’s voltage stays above 14v, even with the factory alternator. If your other fan doesn’t work out, you should consider this route.
I seen the board oddball released, I probably would've gone that route if it was out before I put mine in. Mine does alright, putting lower amp fans in would be ideal, but my proform controller is pretty sweet as far as adjustment and speed control goes. I found some mishimoto fans that I think would do pretty good, and they draw almost half the amount of amps my current setup draws.
Note, I'm replacing the fans either way. Derale shrouds are great, but their fans (or mine at least) aren't the greatest. I've already got a bearing squeaking in one of mine. Mishimoto seem to have very high quality products, so I'll be giving them a shot.
PizallWízall
LVC Member
I have installed these in parallel, no isolator, https://batteryhookup.com/products/super-beast-module-with-48-headway-38120-hp-3-2v-8ah-24v
Had you rewire it for 12 volt setup and also got an AGM for my main,
A little messy, and yes, working on the fire hazard. My lights dont dim anymore.
Had you rewire it for 12 volt setup and also got an AGM for my main,
A little messy, and yes, working on the fire hazard. My lights dont dim anymore.
PizallWízall
LVC Member
I have an Odyssey AGM paralleled with a Headway "super-beast LIFEPO4 no isolator and seems to work out great. Especially with the parasitic drain that was intermittent. U
I'm going to add another battery, I was more trying to figure out if I could rig up an internally regulated one wire to create a separate charging system. Refer to the starting post for a little more detail on the thought.
oddball
Dedicated LVC Member
Several of us tried "high output" aftermarket alternators in years past with very limited success - mostly failure. The control in the LS Gen1 alternator is somewhat uncommon, so the aftermarket just doesn't deal with it well.
This also hits on the usual problem with "high output" alternators. You've fighting physics - there's only so much that can happen. The Ls uses a fairly small case alternator, so getting a higher output rating requires modifying it such that its output during most of its performance curve is actually *lowered*. This is OK for SPL competitions where you just set a fast idle to keep things spinning while competing - but sucks for actually driving the car. I messed around with alternator stuff for *years*, especially with my other cars, and most alternator shops are extremely, uh, creative with their advertising. Yes, hairpins can get a good 20%+ more output than traditional, but anything usefully more needs a bigger case and more copper.
Whether a second battery, or a second alternator, or both is the right answer just depends on what you're doing. Short, sudden spikes only? (e.g. short SPL runs) Second batt is fine. Sustained draw (lots of accessories/fans/stereo going full blast all time)? need a second alt. Both problems - or you're trying to win the regional SPL competition? Both solutions.
Mounting an alternator isn't horrible, just time and fabrication. The thing to watch out for is the PCM fighting the new alternator. The PCM will actually command BELOW 14V for fuel economy when it thinks it's OK. So if the other alternator is putting out 14.2 all the time then the PCM may actually shut down the OEM alternator. I *think* the SCT actually can access the alternator control? It's been a long time.
Realistically, the best choice is to throw away the stock system and put in a simpler alternator setup. The PCM will just complain endlessly about it.
This also hits on the usual problem with "high output" alternators. You've fighting physics - there's only so much that can happen. The Ls uses a fairly small case alternator, so getting a higher output rating requires modifying it such that its output during most of its performance curve is actually *lowered*. This is OK for SPL competitions where you just set a fast idle to keep things spinning while competing - but sucks for actually driving the car. I messed around with alternator stuff for *years*, especially with my other cars, and most alternator shops are extremely, uh, creative with their advertising. Yes, hairpins can get a good 20%+ more output than traditional, but anything usefully more needs a bigger case and more copper.
Whether a second battery, or a second alternator, or both is the right answer just depends on what you're doing. Short, sudden spikes only? (e.g. short SPL runs) Second batt is fine. Sustained draw (lots of accessories/fans/stereo going full blast all time)? need a second alt. Both problems - or you're trying to win the regional SPL competition? Both solutions.
Mounting an alternator isn't horrible, just time and fabrication. The thing to watch out for is the PCM fighting the new alternator. The PCM will actually command BELOW 14V for fuel economy when it thinks it's OK. So if the other alternator is putting out 14.2 all the time then the PCM may actually shut down the OEM alternator. I *think* the SCT actually can access the alternator control? It's been a long time.
Realistically, the best choice is to throw away the stock system and put in a simpler alternator setup. The PCM will just complain endlessly about it.
Oddball, I appreciate the reply, what I'm trying to do is bypass the factory alt for my aftermarket electronics. I'd leave the factory one in there for all the factory electronics tied into it, but then I'd like to run a second battery/alternator completely seperate from the factory stuff to run my aftermarket stuff. I hope that makes sense.
It's gonna be used for a mix of things, yes a little spl stuff, but also my cooling fan controller, air pump for my d2 coilovers (although I'm not too sure how much amperage that pump draws), and some other things down the road.
Oddball, doing a little more reading into your comment (now that I'm not at work) I think you've more/less answered my question. Do you see any sort of issue electrically that I might run into installing a second alternator and battery? There's a guy at work telling me my pcm might see weird voltage through the grounds and mess with stuff, but I'm not exactly sure how it could mess with anything. I plan on getting something like a 160 amp, and I doubt I'll use all that, but for the SPL stuff, it'll be good to have some headroom.
oddball
Dedicated LVC Member
I didn't catch that you wanted it to be a separate system. Yeah, it's possible for the ground to get noisy and the PCM to get upset by it, but the only way to find out is to try it. Make sure all the grounding points are extremely good, and maybe add a few. It would be very bad if the separate system pushed enough current through poor connections to cause a voltage differential.
This is the answer I've been looking for, thank you. I plan on adding 1/0 grounds for everything, would you recommend grounding both alternators directly to the chassis, or even the batteries, or both? I'm planning on doing a couple runs of 1/0 for both power, and grounds from the batteries to the engine bay. That way, I'll have easy access to them from the front. This is all ofc wire, so it'll be able to handle a decent amount of amperage.
oddball
Dedicated LVC Member
Both batteries need to be grounded to the body very well. The engine then needs to be grounded to the body very well. The alternators ground through their body mounting to the engine. It's worthwhile to add extra connections. You don't necessarily need to run a ground cable from front to back assuming the body isn't rusting away. Just make sure to remove the paint wherever you tie onto the body.
OFC is 98% marketing hype. You do want real copper wire, not copper plated aluminum. Welding hookup wire is a popular choice for the bigger gauges, which is fine. The insulation isn't great for an automobile environment but it's certainly fine for running through the interior. It'll likely degrade pretty quick in the engine bay though.
I tended to go to the junkyard and grab the 2gauge power runs from all the LS's and reuse that everywhere.
OFC is 98% marketing hype. You do want real copper wire, not copper plated aluminum. Welding hookup wire is a popular choice for the bigger gauges, which is fine. The insulation isn't great for an automobile environment but it's certainly fine for running through the interior. It'll likely degrade pretty quick in the engine bay though.
I tended to go to the junkyard and grab the 2gauge power runs from all the LS's and reuse that everywhere.
Happy to say the LS hasn't seen any rust. I've had good luck with shca ofc wire, I'm not sure how good it really is, but I know it isn't that junk cca wire people try to get by with. I never thought of grabbing factory wires, there's a pick a part with about 6 or 7 LS's not far from me.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Move to the "salt belt" (Ohio) and during one winter... it will. After 10 plus years my rocker panels are rotted out.