fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
Elroy's Assertion:
Wrong. In reality there is merely overwhelming evidence that most people don't take time to read their own Bibles....By definition, most Christians, rather than reading for themselves, follow the beliefs of a Culture of Christianity -- and many of the Culture's beliefs are based on one or two verses of the Bible, often taken out of context.
This is most definitely the case when it comes to abortion. Ask most anti-abortion Christians to support their view, and they'll give you a couple of verses. One, quite obviously, is the Commandment against murder. But that begs the question of whether or not abortion is murder, which begs the question of whether or not a fetus is the same as a full-term human person. To support their beliefs, these Christians point to one of three bible verses that refer to God working in the womb. The first is found in Psalms:
"For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for Thou art fearfully wonderful (later texts were changed to read "for I am fearfully and wonderfully made"); wonderful are Thy works, and my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Thy book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them." (Psalm 139:13-16)
Although this passage does make the point that God was involved in the creation of this particular human being, it does not state that during the creation the fetus is indeed a person. According to Genesis, God was involved in the creation of every living thing, and yet that doesn't make every living thing a full human person. In other words, just because God was involved in its creation, it does not mean terminating it is the same as murder. It's only murder if a full human person is destroyed.
But even if we agreed to interpret these verses the same way that anti-abortion Christians do, we still have a hard time arguing that the Bible supports an anti-abortion point of view. If anything, as we will soon see, abortion is biblical.
Anytime we take one or two verses out of their context and quote them as doctrine, we place ourselves in jeopardy of being contradicted by other verses.
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Our Response:
Yes, Elroy, let's talk about putting things "in context", shall we? You have made "taking things out of context" an art form.
Pro-Lifers definitely will use those Scriptures you proudly claim have been taken out of context. Just to set the record straight (since you are trying to cast doubt on what Psalm 139:13-16 actually said): "Later texts" were probably changed to read "for I am fearfully and wonderfully made" because that is what the ORIGINAL HEBREW states! Nobody played around with the verbiage, so you don't need to try to make the writers/translators of the Bible look like they didn't know what they were doing.
The Sixth Commandment is that we are not to kill/murder. Your disagreement seems not to be with the Commandment, but you immediately and skillfully turn the world's attention to the fact that abortion can't possibly be murder because that little blob of tissue isn't human yet, "which begs the question of whether or not a fetus is the same as a full-term human person"....
You said: "According to Genesis, God was involved in the creation of every living thing, and yet that doesn't make every living thing a full human person."
For your information, God wasn't just "involved with every living thing"; He MADE them! So who are YOU to downplay that and decide who gets to live and who doesn't?
Who died and made you God, Elroy? What difference does it make whether or not a fetus is the same as a full-term person???? The fact remains, it's a LIVING ORGANISM from the moment of conception. That's why it grows! Dead things don't grow! The fact that the cells DO divide and grow and end up being fully-formed human babies, is proof positive that they ARE living beings from the MOMENT OF CONCEPTION that deserve the chance to be born and to live. And neither YOU nor anyone else has the right to snuff out that life - no matter WHAT you try to tell yourself!
In your mind-numbing tirade about how the Bible supposedly supports abortion, you go on to say:
Another problem in this passage is the phrase, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee." In Psalm 139:13-16 the anti-abortionists claim that because God was active in the creation of King David in his mother's womb that we must conclude the fetus is recognized by God as being a person. But here we see God stating that he knew Jeremiah "before" he was formed in the womb. By anti-abortionist logic, we would have to conclude that we are a human person even before conception. Since this is a ridiculous notion, we must, therefore, conclude that the anti-abortionist is interpreting these verses incorrectly.
No, Elroy - we must conclude that YOU are deliberately ignoring and sluffing over what GOD SAID! God SAID He knew us before conception, so why are you trying to tell the world He didn't really mean it that way? (It's ironic that an atheist will sit there and try to use the BIBLE to prove his own lopsided viewpoint!) Why SHOULDN'T believers conclude that God recognizes a fetus as a person, since there are several Scriptures that mention unborn babies? Just because this notion is "ridiculous" in YOUR eyes isn't proof that God lied. Like everything else on your self-aggrandizing website, it's nothing but Elroy's OPINION!!!!!
....With all these groups chanting the same mantra, there must be some pretty overwhelming biblical evidence of abortion's evil, right?
Wrong. In reality there is merely overwhelming evidence that most people don't take time to read their own Bibles....By definition, most Christians, rather than reading for themselves, follow the beliefs of a Culture of Christianity -- and many of the Culture's beliefs are based on one or two verses of the Bible, often taken out of context.
This is most definitely the case when it comes to abortion. Ask most anti-abortion Christians to support their view, and they'll give you a couple of verses. One, quite obviously, is the Commandment against murder. But that begs the question of whether or not abortion is murder, which begs the question of whether or not a fetus is the same as a full-term human person. To support their beliefs, these Christians point to one of three bible verses that refer to God working in the womb. The first is found in Psalms:
"For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for Thou art fearfully wonderful (later texts were changed to read "for I am fearfully and wonderfully made"); wonderful are Thy works, and my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Thy book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them." (Psalm 139:13-16)
Although this passage does make the point that God was involved in the creation of this particular human being, it does not state that during the creation the fetus is indeed a person. According to Genesis, God was involved in the creation of every living thing, and yet that doesn't make every living thing a full human person. In other words, just because God was involved in its creation, it does not mean terminating it is the same as murder. It's only murder if a full human person is destroyed.
But even if we agreed to interpret these verses the same way that anti-abortion Christians do, we still have a hard time arguing that the Bible supports an anti-abortion point of view. If anything, as we will soon see, abortion is biblical.
Anytime we take one or two verses out of their context and quote them as doctrine, we place ourselves in jeopardy of being contradicted by other verses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our Response:
Yes, Elroy, let's talk about putting things "in context", shall we? You have made "taking things out of context" an art form.
Pro-Lifers definitely will use those Scriptures you proudly claim have been taken out of context. Just to set the record straight (since you are trying to cast doubt on what Psalm 139:13-16 actually said): "Later texts" were probably changed to read "for I am fearfully and wonderfully made" because that is what the ORIGINAL HEBREW states! Nobody played around with the verbiage, so you don't need to try to make the writers/translators of the Bible look like they didn't know what they were doing.
The Sixth Commandment is that we are not to kill/murder. Your disagreement seems not to be with the Commandment, but you immediately and skillfully turn the world's attention to the fact that abortion can't possibly be murder because that little blob of tissue isn't human yet, "which begs the question of whether or not a fetus is the same as a full-term human person"....
You said: "According to Genesis, God was involved in the creation of every living thing, and yet that doesn't make every living thing a full human person."
For your information, God wasn't just "involved with every living thing"; He MADE them! So who are YOU to downplay that and decide who gets to live and who doesn't?
Who died and made you God, Elroy? What difference does it make whether or not a fetus is the same as a full-term person???? The fact remains, it's a LIVING ORGANISM from the moment of conception. That's why it grows! Dead things don't grow! The fact that the cells DO divide and grow and end up being fully-formed human babies, is proof positive that they ARE living beings from the MOMENT OF CONCEPTION that deserve the chance to be born and to live. And neither YOU nor anyone else has the right to snuff out that life - no matter WHAT you try to tell yourself!
In your mind-numbing tirade about how the Bible supposedly supports abortion, you go on to say:
Another problem in this passage is the phrase, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee." In Psalm 139:13-16 the anti-abortionists claim that because God was active in the creation of King David in his mother's womb that we must conclude the fetus is recognized by God as being a person. But here we see God stating that he knew Jeremiah "before" he was formed in the womb. By anti-abortionist logic, we would have to conclude that we are a human person even before conception. Since this is a ridiculous notion, we must, therefore, conclude that the anti-abortionist is interpreting these verses incorrectly.
No, Elroy - we must conclude that YOU are deliberately ignoring and sluffing over what GOD SAID! God SAID He knew us before conception, so why are you trying to tell the world He didn't really mean it that way? (It's ironic that an atheist will sit there and try to use the BIBLE to prove his own lopsided viewpoint!) Why SHOULDN'T believers conclude that God recognizes a fetus as a person, since there are several Scriptures that mention unborn babies? Just because this notion is "ridiculous" in YOUR eyes isn't proof that God lied. Like everything else on your self-aggrandizing website, it's nothing but Elroy's OPINION!!!!!
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