Cooling system problem

[heyjewel]

I hate to start new thread on this but I have searched and read other threads and I think mine is a little different.
Rebuilt V6 engine. Replaced pretty much everything including both plastic cooling system hoses, water pump, thermostat, radiator, degas and cap with genuine motorcraft, ...
Some probably know from other thread that I was fighting a P0401 and then P0402. Fixed both (swapped DPFE hoses (ouch stop beating me ) and vacuum leak. Ran like a top for 40 or so hard driving miles. Got back home and:
Temp guage went a tiny bit above half way (had been right at halfway point every time I previously drove it after rebuild). Parked it and opened hood and the degas bottle was full, full, full. It had the right amount of coolant and I did bleed it weeks ago. After a short time, there was coolant on the ground. Looked to be in the typical place the degas leaks.
So I'm thinking air (or some other gas - ugh) is in the system. But how is it getting in there with all new cooling system parts? I did not check for heat and the AC remains uncharged.
Any ideas?
Thanks.

 

[joegr]

I think that it is possible to get a water pump that turns the wrong way for the V6. I guess it would be the one for some FWD applications. Of course, I could be thinking about a different engine. Anyway, if this is true and you do have the wrong one, it might explain it. It would pump enough for some cooling, but not enough for higher engine loads. (Coolant still flows in the right direction, it's just that the pump is not as efficient with the vanes curved in the wrong direction. In this case, the "gas" would be steam.

I'm sure there are other possibilities too, but I don't know much about the V6.

 

[heyjewel]

I think that it is possible to get a water pump that turns the wrong way for the V6. I guess it would be the one for some FWD applications. Of course, I could be thinking about a different engine. Anyway, if this is true and you do have the wrong one, it might explain it. It would pump enough for some cooling, but not enough for higher engine loads. (Coolant still flows in the right direction, it's just that the pump is not as efficient with the vanes curved in the wrong direction. In this case, the "gas" would be steam.

I'm sure there are other possibilities too, but I don't know much about the V6.

Man that would s*ck. Can we think of a way to test that?

 

[joegr]

No, I can only think of removing the water pump and looking at the vanes. I think that this is really a long shot and may not be the first thing that you want to try.

 

[heyjewel]

No, I can only think of removing the water pump and looking at the vanes. I think that this is really a long shot and may not be the first thing that you want to try.

Yeah sounds pretty weird. But parts suppliers did pass off some parts meant for other 3.0L V6s as for LS V6. This engine is pretty special.

 

[Broseph]

I’d double check all hoses and caps are hooked up and clamped / torqued correctly. I did my degas and several parts a few years ago after an engine rebuild. Drive one day about 10 miles before it started spraying steam and coolant under the hood and panicked.

Behold, I didn’t clamp the degas bottle overflow hose ( I think that’s what the hose at top is) all the way and air got in the system.

Just something to think about before throwing parts at it. Always double check your work

 

[joegr]

...Behold, I didn’t clamp the degas bottle overflow hose ( I think that’s what the hose at top is) all the way and air got in the system...

The top hose is the engine air bleed. Any small amount of air/steam in the engine coolant circuit is supposed travel up that hose and into the degas bottle.

 

[heyjewel]

I’d double check all hoses and caps are hooked up and clamped / torqued correctly. I did my degas and several parts a few years ago after an engine rebuild. Drive one day about 10 miles before it started spraying steam and coolant under the hood and panicked.

Behold, I didn’t clamp the degas bottle overflow hose ( I think that’s what the hose at top is) all the way and air got in the system.

Just something to think about before throwing parts at it. Always double check your work

Good advice. I will check everything. Again. I wish I had seen where the coolant came out of. Was definitely something around the degas. Going to bleed the system first.

 

[joegr]

Good advice. I will check everything. Again. I wish I had seen where the coolant came out of. Was definitely something around the degas. Going to bleed the system first.

If there is excess pressure (such as overheating causing steam, or air trapped in the system) then the pressure relief in the degas cap will vent coolant out over the top of the degas bottle. It will then drip down where you saw it.

 

[heyjewel]

If there is excess pressure (such as overheating causing steam, or air trapped in the system) then the pressure relief in the degas cap will vent coolant out over the top of the degas bottle. It will then drip down where you saw it.

Yes I'm figuring that's what happened. But how is the air getting in? Going to look at all the connections but wouldn't I be more likely to see coolant leak at a loose connection than air getting sucked in?

 

[Firebrian]

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[BILLBOATS]

I hate to start new thread on this but I have searched and read other threads and I think mine is a little different.
Rebuilt V6 engine. Replaced pretty much everything including both plastic cooling system hoses, water pump, thermostat, radiator, degas and cap with genuine motorcraft, ...
Some probably know from other thread that I was fighting a P0401 and then P0402. Fixed both (swapped DPFE hoses (ouch stop beating me ) and vacuum leak. Ran like a top for 40 or so hard driving miles. Got back home and:
Temp guage went a tiny bit above half way (had been right at halfway point every time I previously drove it after rebuild). Parked it and opened hood and the degas bottle was full, full, full. It had the right amount of coolant and I did bleed it weeks ago. After a short time, there was coolant on the ground. Looked to be in the typical place the degas leaks.
So I'm thinking air (or some other gas - ugh) is in the system. But how is it getting in there with all new cooling system parts? I did not check for heat and the AC remains uncharged.
Any ideas?
Thanks.

Hi, I too in 4 cyl after replacing water pump had a coolant gushing out at the rate of 1 gal in 1 to 3 miles of driving. I too at first thought it was the head gasket. Put it on a lift and you can hear it bubble backwards. Rear hard. Figured all the work I did was lost. My friend mechanic Craig took it off the lift and we filled it up with water and as we drove home doing 70 it held temp but high. You have more air in engine or radiator because when the water pump is replaced, lots of coolant leaves the block alowing much air to be trapped in the block . It took me 5 gallions of water to get the air lock out of the gm 2.4 dohc. I suggest a home made funnel out of a 2 liter bottle with the bottom cut off. Then insert the neck into your resivour . By keeping the bottle filled up while the motor run , air will escape but be blocked by the water in the 2 liter bottle provided you keep it fiiled enough so it can stop air from getting back into the jar. Look on y tube and see what guys did to get these newer engines to let go of the air locks as they are "tough" much more so than the old v8 mills

 

[joegr]

... Venting the cooling system with the car on boards or ramps is helpful as it helps to force air up and out of the system. Venting when level or even pointed nose down a bit is much harder. ...

Nope. It's easier with the nose pointing down. The high point of the LS cooling system is the degas bottle, which is at the base of the windshield (behind the engine), not at the front of the car.
Also, there is a very specific bleeding procedure that must be followed to the letter.

 

[Firebrian]

====

 

[joegr]

The LS is not a Continental. The degas is in a different place. Not all cars are the same. I've had Grand Marquis (about 4, I think), and they had to be treated totally differently when it came to filling and bleeding than the LS. Why is it so hard to accept that different cars can be different?

Get an LS and try filling and bleeding it not following the factory procedure and with the nose up. See what happens.

 

[milehighmikey]

Hi George, long shot time, but how well is your cooling fan turning? Does it go to high speed when the temp is past mid point?

 

[heyjewel]

Hi George, long shot time, but how well is your cooling fan turning? Does it go to high speed when the temp is past mid point?

I'm going to check that during/after bleeding procedure, right now

 

[BILLBOATS]

Nope. It's easier with the nose pointing down. The high point of the LS cooling system is the degas bottle, which is at the base of the windshield (behind the engine), not at the front of the car.
Also, there is a very specific bleeding procedure that must be followed to the letter.

When and if he gets the trapped air out the car will be saved from the boneyard.

 

[BILLBOATS]

I’d double check all hoses and caps are hooked up and clamped / torqued correctly. I did my degas and several parts a few years ago after an engine rebuild. Drive one day about 10 miles before it started spraying steam and coolant under the hood and panicked.

Behold, I didn’t clamp the degas bottle overflow hose ( I think that’s what the hose at top is) all the way and air got in the system.

Just something to think about before throwing parts at it. Always double check your work My over flow hose in the 2.4 (I own it for a winter car) was leaking air and fluid . After repair it with a knife and a clamp , psi went to 20 psi from 0 psi. Car now run 10 deg cooller . I think you hit the nail on the head by fixing the hose.

 

[Broseph]

I'm going to check that during/after bleeding procedure, right now

And....are you squared away, or are you still getting air in the system?

 

[heyjewel]

And....are you squared away, or are you still getting air in the system?

So here's the latest:
Yesterday I bled it exactly as Lincoln wants in the DVD service manual. It worked like it always does for me. Very little flow out of the heater bleed even with real hot air out of vents and idling for at least 10 min.
Then I sucked some coolant out of degas to get it to read at the cold line. There was too much in only because I added some at start of bleeding procedure til it ran out the engine bleed.
This AM I took my daughter to school. It's a 25 mile round trip with some good ups and downs. I stopped at halfway point and popped the hood and there was the degas full to the brim! Temp guage has risen very slightly. I just came home. Temp gauge quickly went back down. Whe I got home, popped the hood and the degas level was right at the hot fill line!? I suppose some may have spit out on way home. Its raining so difficult to tell. I let it idle at home for 15 minutes. Level never moved.
I guess I'm going to do some more drive cycles and see how it goes. The level now after cooling for half hour is right at the cold line.
The fan works in that I can see it moving fairly fast when I shine a light on it. I do not know if its at super high speed or not and not sure how to tell. Certainly could be an issue though since the temp seems to go up just a hair when stopped.
I do not yet know if I still have air in the system.
Thanks all.

 

[joegr]

I think (could be wrong) that you have a marginal cooling situation of some sort going on. I think that its the coolant boiling at the hot spots that is causing the level to rise when it is overheating. There may or may not be any air getting in. If the gauge moves at all past the half way mark, it is overheating. I think the temperature has to be close to 240 F for it to move.

Max heat load should be while driving, and up hill should be worst case. If it's going over temp while going more than 35 MPH, then it's not the fan. I'd connect a scan tool and monitor the actual coolant temperatures with it.

Either you're not moving enough coolant (water pump, thermostat, air pocket, clogs), or there isn't enough air going through the radiator. If you have any way to put a temperature probe in the coolant in the return hose, you could rule in or out the radiator and airflow as the problem.

If you monitor the temperature and it stays around 200 while idling, but climbs when you drive, it's probably not the thermostat.

 

[heyjewel]

So I went out there this AM to just open the engine air bleed and nothing came out. Which says there is air in there, yes? I mean since I bled it the other day then it sortof boiled then dropped down to cold level shouldnt that have filled the engine passages?
I am going to see if forscan can help today but it wont tell me anything about air in the system. A brand new system.

 

[heyjewel]

I think (could be wrong) that you have a marginal cooling situation of some sort going on. I think that its the coolant boiling at the hot spots that is causing the level to rise when it is overheating. There may or may not be any air getting in. If the gauge moves at all past the half way mark, it is overheating. I think the temperature has to be close to 240 F for it to move.

Max heat load should be while driving, and up hill should be worst case. If it's going over temp while going more than 35 MPH, then it's not the fan. I'd connect a scan tool and monitor the actual coolant temperatures with it.

Either you're not moving enough coolant (water pump, thermostat, air pocket, clogs), or there isn't enough air going through the radiator. If you have any way to put a temperature probe in the coolant in the return hose, you could rule in or out the radiator and airflow as the problem.

If you monitor the temperature and it stays around 200 while idling, but climbs when you drive, it's probably not the thermostat.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
OK well here's another clue for you all, ... the Walrus was Paul. Ooops, never mind. Different puzzle. Back to peeling this glass onion...

So I took all in joegr's post here to heart and hooked up the forscan and took her for a drive. Did this after I bled the system again. Had to add maybe a cup or two of antifreeze to the degas to get the engine bleed to bleed. Heater bleed as always dripped at best. But plenty of heat.

I live bout .6 of a mile down a dirt road with speed limit 10 mph. Much is uphill to get out for me. Car was warm as I started off as I had just run the bleed procedure. Went up .5 mile or so at 10-15mph all the way in first gear. Stopped before I got to the main road and Engine temp on forscan was 111 degrees C which is 232 degrees F. And the coolant was boiling. But gauge was centered. Took a drive anyway. 8 miles up/down and rode her hard. Stopped half way and checked and temp down to 103. Got to where I was going and coolant boiling. Temp 111 again. Went into store and coolant had sttled down when I came out. Top of degas was a bit wet from coolant. That's all the data cause my stinkin Sony computer battery only lasts about 20 mins away from the plug. Next time gonna bring an inverter.

BTW, gauge NEVER moved past exactly halfway.

So, data says- 1) coolant got real hot and boiled just going 1/2 mile or so in first gear at 15mph. Radiator? is new. Fan? got perhaps? good reading of 62% fan speed on forscan when boiling. Maybe this isn't enough? WHere is that stinking fan sensor/actuator thing? Rhetorical. I'll look it up on DVD. Only about 6% at idle. Air? Who knows?
2) Drove hard about 4 miles. Stopped. Coolant temp 103 and no boiling level back down to hot line, which is where it was when I left. 3) Went rest of way (to CVS) rode her hard. Got there and 111 and boiling again. Contradicts case 1. So maybe radiator? Maybe air? Maybe fan? Actuator? Maybe something else. Thermostat? Fan sensor? Fan? I just dunno.
I do have one theory which I can test - the degas cap. It's supposed to keep 16psi pressure in the system which should raise the boiling point, yes? To what I dont know. Th cap is fomoco - it says that right on it. I have another cap or two on my other 2 LSes (pray for me). I will swap caps before my net test run.

I would HATE to shotgun this problem any further than the cap. Unless it will cause permanent engine (or brain) damage, my inclination right now is to just drive her and if the temp sensor goes above middle AT ALL, pull over and wait it out. I usually have a good sci fi book with me these days.

Reminds of '60s with my '64 Merc Monterey conv 390. Had to do some of that on the way to Woodstock believe it or not from Boston. Got there, or as close as the car could take us, and all we saw was Ravi Shankar. Actually we only heard him. Even with tickets we couldn't get in it was such a freaking zoo. And then the deluge came down. We drove to Lake George and tried to score. I'll end story there.

 

[heyjewel]

OK took for another test today. Now I think I have two problems.
Put new degas cap on (from other LS been running great.) Not Fomoco.
Started at 90 degrees C ECT. Got to same spot as yesterday where boiling had begun and all was fine. Temp about 103C. Fan at 10% or so.
Drove hard mostly uphill to store about 7 miles. All good all the way until stopped. Temp went up to 116C (241F). Temp gauge crept up above 1/2 to nearly 5/8. Fan said it was at 100%. Coolant did not boil or leak out but did expand. Came out of store. All same. Started and fan went straight to 100% and temp began to drop. Drove home and gauge was just a hair above 1/2 most of the way. Got home and all was well with ECT=103 and no boiling. Did not expand.
So obviously I got a bad degas cap from Ford. This one in there now prevented boiling up to 116 where the other boiled at 111. I noticed that bad cap went on very easily and just merrily went click click click when tightening. This better one is harder to put on and tough to tighten to get a few clicks.
Then there is another problem which causes the ECT to climb to 116. I was thinking thermostat? But when I checked forscan at home I found the FANVAR parameter said failed. Hmmm. I did not notice this on the drive. Not sure when it failed and under what circumstance unfortunately. Fan seemed to work but something thinks it isn't working properly. Variable says "Cooling fan driver fault." So gotta attack that. Not sure how to get more info on it.