Delphi Cops seem to be running fine

[LS-jsf]

You've missed my point. The parts should NOT have been plastic to start with, I don't care what brand of car it is. Ford or whomever is f**king us over by doing so, simple as that.

If you've accepted that the (very expensive plastic) parts should only last 10 years and pay through the ass for them, then I guess they have won the battle. Yes Ford would be the bitch, indeed.

I've NEVER said to buy the cheaper bottle, ever. So I won't be telling you how it goes.

My last example was that someone is selling a LS degas bottle for $26.99 shipped to your door from China, the same country that Ford makes their degas bottle and they sell for $200+ - So is the labor more expensive in the China factory that Ford uses, I doubt it. Is the plastic 10 times more expensive that Ford uses, I doubt it. If you read some past posts of mine I say to replace the degas bottle with a Ford one.

But it does seem odd that since there appear to be more than just Ford or Dorman making the bottle, why is only Ford's the one that lasts? (A whopping 10 years, wow)

The bottom line is I don't like being taken advantage of...by anyone.

 

[RigsLS]

Don't let this get personal jsf, that was not the intention nor am I in the mood for it.

I'm not missing any point.
White box parts are just that, imitated not to spec mass produced knock off crap coming out of non Ford approved will build for less sweat shops from all around the world.

Big misconception soon as something says "made in China" on it.

Outsourcing is nothing new, the differance being large contracts awarded to oversees legitimate companies that are held to spec and batch testing, justified to remain compliant to contract VS. reversed engineered duplicated knock off Uncle and Sons' back alley shops.

I hope you can at least take that away from this conversation.

There is a very valid reason why automakers do not make everything out of metal. One key factor is feasibility. They'd have to add several thousands to the sticker price and by doing so have just sold the consumer a car that would not need replacement parts for its duration.

They are not in the business of manufacturing something that would last forever. They rely on the fact the consumer will and needs to open wallet and get into something new rather sooner then later.

Wieght is another element. Cost to manufactur/produce is another.

Wear items were never intended to last.

10yrs on a plastic engine part is nothing new nor was it expected to last behond.

Hope this makes sense to you.
They simple do not want it to last that long. You're not going to get that from any auto maker. Big money in the replacement market. It's up to the consumer to shop and spend it's money wisely. OEM wins every time thus corporate greed elevated pricing.

Avoid white box parts lacking labeling and numbers, waste of both time and money.
Lifetime warranty means jack in such instances.

Pop the hood of a Mazda or such .... same thing. I promise ... done so for very valid reasons.

 

[1LoudLS]

there is a reason why next to NOBODY still makes cars where everything is made out of metal... back when cars were, they weighed much more, got way crappier gas millage, and did not perform nearly as well as they do today. if you don't want cars mostly made of plastic, blame the EPA and their mileage standards they make all the manufactures meet. the only way the cars can do it is to cut weight everywhere they can, so if it doesn't have to be metal, its not going to be.


alternatively, if you don't ever want to replace any plastic cooling system parts, its been well documented that you can just leave your degas cap slightly loose so that you don't build plastic destroying pressure.

 

[1LoudLS]

Pop the hood of a Mazda or such .... same thing.

or a Chevy, or a Chrysler, or a Toyota, or a Honda, or a Nissan, or an Audi, or a Mercedes, or a BMW, or an Alfa, or a Hyundai, or a Mitsubishi, or a Subaru, or a Volvo, or a Buick, or a Jeep, or a GMC, or an Acura, or a Dodge, or a Cadillac, or a Suzuki...

 

[RigsLS]

You did NOT just do that !!!

 

[LS-jsf]

Rigs, I'm not making anything personal, you made some comments directed at me (such as buy the cheap bottle and let us know how it works) implying I said the cheap bottle was the way to go, I never said that and I responded back as I will to anyone, in person or on a keyboard. You can be a little rough at times and I'm told I can be a bit blunt at times. I suppose those two personality types will bump heads on occasion, but it's no reason not to be able to get along.

The last thing I look to do, or want to do is argue with you or anyone on here. If I enjoyed that, I would be on Yahoo being a troll. I always enjoy hearing what you have to say, you have a lot of knowledge, as do some others. I'm a good listener, but that doesn't mean I will always agree with someone or not question how they came to the conclusion they did. That's how ALL of us learn. Nobody has all of the answers, not you, not me or anyone else.

Most of what you mentioned in your last post were wise words, and honestly I knew most of them already. You seem to be hearing me saying one thing and I'm trying to say something else. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well, not sure what it is exactly. But just you saying 'I'm not missing any point' says I'm not getting the point across that I'm trying to, whether it's my fault or yours, it wasn't working.

Of course I understand why someone makes parts not to last forever, but that is one of the points I was trying to make. Just because they do it for that reason doesn't make it the right way to do something. It honestly pisses me off and I'm going to state that when the subject comes up. LOL It's just my opinion. And my comment about someone selling a part for $27 or $200+ I understand there will be a huge quality difference in the parts, I don't think someone should be able to sell shit parts like that, nor should the only option be a WAY overpriced part either, again just my opinion.

I see all kinds of new aluminum cooling parts for a Jaguar S-Type, same basic V8 engine we have. The LS should have had aluminum pieces (not heavy metal 1LoudLS) like this from the start on the car, and if not then as replacement parts, again just my opinion.

NEW URO JAGUAR ALUMINUM THERMOSTAT HOUSING KIT AJ82217KIT | eBay

1LoudLS can be a wise-ass saying the Don-Ohio bs about the no pressure, but I do search and read past posts and knew exactly what he was talking about. Nice try though 1LoudLS.

Anyway Rigs, as I mentioned, I'm certainly not here to argue with anyone, but I will express my thoughts and opinions once in awhile. Afterall, that's what a blog is for. And thanks for sharing your knowledge with us all. I know there are plenty of people laying in the weeds who don't comment on here, but read and soak all of it up.

Don't let this get personal jsf, that was not the intention nor am I in the mood for it.

I'm not missing any point.
White box parts are just that, imitated not to spec mass produced knock off crap coming out of non Ford approved will build for less sweat shops from all around the world.

Big misconception soon as something says "made in China" on it.

Outsourcing is nothing new, the differance being large contracts awarded to oversees legitimate companies that are held to spec and batch testing, justified to remain compliant to contract VS. reversed engineered duplicated knock off Uncle and Sons' back alley shops.

I hope you can at least take that away from this conversation.

There is a very valid reason why automakers do not make everything out of metal. One key factor is feasibility. They'd have to add several thousands to the sticker price and by doing so have just sold the consumer a car that would not need replacement parts for its duration.

They are not in the business of manufacturing something that would last forever. They rely on the fact the consumer will and needs to open wallet and get into something new rather sooner then later.

Wieght is another element. Cost to manufactur/produce is another.

Wear items were never intended to last.

10yrs on a plastic engine part is nothing new nor was it expected to last behond.

Hope this makes sense to you.
They simple do not want it to last that long. You're not going to get that from any auto maker. Big money in the replacement market. It's up to the consumer to shop and spend it's money wisely. OEM wins every time thus corporate greed elevated pricing.

Avoid white box parts lacking labeling and numbers, waste of both time and money.
Lifetime warranty means jack in such instances.

Pop the hood of a Mazda or such .... same thing. I promise ... done so for very valid reasons.

 

[RigsLS]

... made some comments directed at me (such as buy the cheap bottle and let us know how it works) implying ...

I didn't imply nothing ... it was referanced as a general. As in "go ahead and get that cheaper bottle ...." I should have perhaps specified more clearly.

What troubles me more is linking to such waste of money. We all know, there will be that small percentage of individuals with not enough wallet that will only see $29.95 and go for it, regardless of the advice not to.

Either or .... not sure why I care, gave up a while back. Not my problem. I've tried.

 

[joegr]

...They are not in the business of manufacturing something that would last forever. They rely on the fact the consumer will and needs to open wallet and get into something new rather sooner then later...

Honestly, they don't intentionally design them to fail. That is not one of the goals. It's just that the goals are to have it last at least a few years past the warranty period. If they can make it last longer than that without adding cost or engineering time, then they will. As you know, it hardly ever happens that it wouldn't add cost or design time (also a cost). They don't need breakdowns to convince the typical new car buyer to trade for a new car. Marketing does that with styling changes (so everybody knows you are driving an old model) and with the addition of features. Most new car buyers will trade before they have any major failures. They do it because they want the new thing, not because the current car isn't working anymore. If problems came too soon, then they would trade for another brand. That's not what the car makers want.

It's also very true that it is much easier to make complex designs in plastic than metal, and the weight and cost issues are very real. As it was, the LS was too expensive for the market it was aimed at, and Lincoln didn't know how to market it. It would have been even worse if it had cost more.

 

[LS-jsf]

Sometimes links need to be put up in reference to something being talked about, otherwise some reading it may not think the statement(s) is true. The truth is most people probably do a search when looking for a part and would find the cheap part on eBay or where ever. And if their wallet is that empty, that's what they'll buy no matter what's said on here. If they do and it fails quickly, well then hopefully since they were schooled well by someone such as yourself, they will figure out a way to save up and do it right the next time instead of rinse & repeat. If not, then anything said here really doesn't matter anyway. As the old saying goes, 'it's like talking to a cement wall.' Again, thanks for all the help you share with others Rigs.

I didn't imply nothing ... it was referanced as a general. As in "go ahead and get that cheaper bottle ...." I should have perhaps specified more clearly.

What troubles me more is linking to such waste of money. We all know, there will be that small percentage of individuals with not enough wallet that will only see $29.95 and go for it, regardless of the advice not to.

Either or .... not sure why I care, gave up a while back. Not my problem. I've tried.

 

[LS-jsf]

All words of wisdom and I would agree with everything except that the LS was too expensive for the market it was aimed at. It was priced similar to the German cars that a younger crowd was currently buying at the time, but as you said, Lincoln didn't know how to market to that group as they never had in the past. Lincoln=older buyers.

While true that it couldn't have been marketed at a higher price point, and making the cooling parts out of aluminum instead of plastic may have raised the car's cost and a small amount of weight, if there were known issues with these parts then Lincoln should have at least corrected it when they made changes on the 2nd Gen cars. They still made the 2nd Gen for 4 more years. As you mentioned, if people are having problems with reliability, why would their next car buy be a Lincoln. I understand that they are planning new models years ahead, but if it's a known major problem it should have been corrected, in my opinion.

The LS was priced about $15k less then it's cousin the Jaguar S-Type and I've read that since Ford owned them both at that time, the Jaguar bosses were very adament they didn't want the LS to compete directly with the S-Type in any way, so some things planned such as a more powerful engine for the LSE were cut. Early on I think they should have made the 5-speed with the V8, not the V6 if they were seeking out a performance minded buyer.

Honestly, they don't intentionally design them to fail. That is not one of the goals. It's just that the goals are to have it last at least a few years past the warranty period. If they can make it last longer than that without adding cost or engineering time, then they will. As you know, it hardly ever happens that it wouldn't add cost or design time (also a cost). They don't need breakdowns to convince the typical new car buyer to trade for a new car. Marketing does that with styling changes (so everybody knows you are driving an old model) and with the addition of features. Most new car buyers will trade before they have any major failures. They do it because they want the new thing, not because the current car isn't working anymore. If problems came too soon, then they would trade for another brand. That's not what the car makers want.

It's also very true that it is much easier to make complex designs in plastic than metal, and the weight and cost issues are very real. As it was, the LS was too expensive for the market it was aimed at, and Lincoln didn't know how to market it. It would have been even worse if it had cost more.

 

[RigsLS]

Honestly, they don't intentionally design them to fail ...

Of course they don't and they also do not aim to make plastic degas bottles last forever. I'm sure you understood my point but apparently I'm having difficulties explaining myself correctly this week.

I'm done here,
Nothing lasts forever.

 

[grizzlyls]

I have always been an advocate for not paying overpriced amounts for goods that are sourced relatively the same manufacturing sub. No offense to anyone who owns one, but dont get me started on Apple. Motorcraft is rife with that lately. I am seeing much better and cheaper stuff in several cases down the Jaguar supply chain. I will continue to search for the part that will prove best for least out of my pocket, that's my point.

 

[Gary Vogeler]

All words of wisdom and I would agree with everything except that the LS was too expensive for the market it was aimed at. It was priced similar to the German cars that a younger crowd was currently buying at the time, but as you said, Lincoln didn't know how to market to that group as they never had in the past. Lincoln=older buyers.

While true that it couldn't have been marketed at a higher price point, and making the cooling parts out of aluminum instead of plastic may have raised the car's cost and a small amount of weight, if there were known issues with these parts then Lincoln should have at least corrected it when they made changes on the 2nd Gen cars. They still made the 2nd Gen for 4 more years. As you mentioned, if people are having problems with reliability, why would their next car buy be a Lincoln. I understand that they are planning new models years ahead, but if it's a known major problem it should have been corrected, in my opinion.

The LS was priced about $15k less then it's cousin the Jaguar S-Type and I've read that since Ford owned them both at that time, the Jaguar bosses were very adament they didn't want the LS to compete directly with the S-Type in any way, so some things planned such as a more powerful engine for the LSE were cut. Early on I think they should have made the 5-speed with the V8, not the V6 if they were seeking out a performance minded buyer.

Did Ford significantly increase the prices for the Gen2 over the Gen 1? I never considered a Gen2 so I did not pay attention to pricing.

I did considerable research before I purchased my 02 V8 Sport and there were no comparably equipped German or Japanese vehicles in the same price class as the LS. After purchasing mine, I had multiple people comment how they were considering one due to the size, RWD, available V8 and price. The LS was around 15% less expensive than comparable German or Japanese models.

Due to what I found in my research, I suspected Ford was targeting to enter the market with the LS via the age old strategy of undercutting the competition on price and to do this, known or suspected weaknesses in the vehicle were left unaddressed. Stronger transmission & more reliable coils are just 2 areas that LS owners wish were a bit more robust but would have a negative cost impact, driving the price closer to the German and Japanese.

Agree with Joegr that the goal of engineering was to have the vehicle failures occur a few years outside of the warranty period where the 2nd, 3rd or 4th owner would have to deal with it. Lived in the auto industry supply chain long enough to learn that. If improved reliability can be achieved with minimal engineering expense or part cost, it may be approved. If reliability numbers are being met, chances for approval of a proposed improvement that has a negative cost impact is low.

 

[LS-jsf]

I said that the LS wasn't too expensive for the market it was supposed to be marketed to and when I said priced similar to German cars, I mis-spoke a bit. That is correct that the similar BMW would cost 15% more than the LS, but that is what I was trying to relay here that the LS should have been a very good alternative to that BMW buyer because it's price was lower and more attractive to a younger buyer. But as many have said, Lincoln did a terrible job marketing to that younger crowd.

I'm not sure that I agree that making the coils and transmission better would have raised the LS price $12k though. There was a 6 speed Jaguar transmission I read others say should have been put in at least with the 2nd Gen LS's, I'm not sure if the 1st Gens were mentioned for it also.

As far as vehicle failures are set to happen to the 2nd-4th owners, no one would disagree with that statement I'm sure. But for some unknown reason, some think it's being said that parts should last forever...I never heard anyone say that, I certainly did not. The simple comment I made is if Lincoln/Ford would have made the coolant parts out of aluminum instead of plastic, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Some say that everyone is making them plastic, that doesn't make it the correct thing to do. My '98 Mark VIII has 147k miles on it. I've owned it for 15 years and it has never so much as overheated in the Las Vegas desert, let alone had any coolant plastic parts give out. Sure can't say that about our LS (with 90k less miles) and apparently a lot of other people's LS's. To my knowledge, the Mark VIII didn't have this coolant plastic parts problem. The LS is the model that followed the Mark VIII. One would hope that it would be made more reliable than it's predecessor, not worse. Maybe the antifreeze has something to do with it? The Mark VIII uses the old conventional green while the LS uses the HOAT 'organic' type. I thought the word organic means something is better for you? LOL Maybe not so much with antifreeze.

Did Ford significantly increase the prices for the Gen2 over the Gen 1? I never considered a Gen2 so I did not pay attention to pricing.

I did considerable research before I purchased my 02 V8 Sport and there were no comparably equipped German or Japanese vehicles in the same price class as the LS. After purchasing mine, I had multiple people comment how they were considering one due to the size, RWD, available V8 and price. The LS was around 15% less expensive than comparable German or Japanese models.

Due to what I found in my research, I suspected Ford was targeting to enter the market with the LS via the age old strategy of undercutting the competition on price and to do this, known or suspected weaknesses in the vehicle were left unaddressed. Stronger transmission & more reliable coils are just 2 areas that LS owners wish were a bit more robust but would have a negative cost impact, driving the price closer to the German and Japanese.

Agree with Joegr that the goal of engineering was to have the vehicle failures occur a few years outside of the warranty period where the 2nd, 3rd or 4th owner would have to deal with it. Lived in the auto industry supply chain long enough to learn that. If improved reliability can be achieved with minimal engineering expense or part cost, it may be approved. If reliability numbers are being met, chances for approval of a proposed improvement that has a negative cost impact is low.

 

[Gary Vogeler]

Definitely agree the marketing was poor for the LS. The initial TV commercials were attention getters but it appeared to me that buying TV commercial time was the only way the marketing team knew how to spend their budget. I was 35 and in the target age group when I bought my 02 and LS marketing during that model year was very thin, understandably so since the auto industry took a big hit post 9/11.

I do wish the cooling system utilised more metal for durability. I've only lost the degass bottle in 15 years but am waiting for the other shoe to fall. Will have to make a big decision whether or not I keep her any longer when that day comes. A 2018/19 10 speed Ecoboost Mustang convertible with the Ford Performance cold intake and flash sounds really attractive. Always wished the LS was available as a convertible.

Interesting thought on the gold coolant. My dealer switched my LS to the green ethylene glycol coolant and a few flushes back. I did not object since I read enough about the organic coolant related problems on GM cars to have doubts about the long term impact of the gold coolant. I was willing to accept the risk of switching to the green.

Good call on the Mark VIII. I always wanted an LSC when they were new but didn't have the income at the time.

 

[nghtshd88]

Just an update. 35k miles later and one went out on me today. Going with motorcraft this time.