Differential Help

so sexy......

Lou, will you be writing up anything, like a list, of all parts/costs needed. Now that I have an old 3.31 lying around...HMMM
 
right - the idea would be a DIY project - so setting backlash and pre-load is the challenge....
 
:runaway: :wrench :bowrofl:
Friggin sweet!

That would be worthy of a sticker on my car to advertise it... (and I HATE stickers) :p
 
Quik LS said:
Yep - the Torsen is here......

I'm waiting on shims.
Click to expand...

Quik, I know this is an old post. Any info on where that Torsen came out of? For my project I need something with clutches inside -- Torsens act too funky when one wheel becomes partially unloaded.
 
It's a Torsen T-2 ('99 Cobra, 28 spline fitment) from Reider Racing. They also offered a T-2R, which is a more aggressive "racing" version.

http://www.reiderracing.com/zexeltorsen.htm

I have not yet set the pre-load or back lash yet - so there is still a fair amount of fiddling with shims...
 
Quik LS said:
It's a Torsen T-2 ('99 Cobra, 28 spline fitment) from Reider Racing. They also offered a T-2R, which is a more aggressive "racing" version.

http://www.reiderracing.com/zexeltorsen.htm

I have not yet set the pre-load or back lash yet - so there is still a fair amount of fiddling with shims...
Click to expand...

So I'm guessing this means that the various clutch type 8.8 28-spline diffs would work? Stuff like this:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=221

This begs the somewhat obvious question -- what are you using for output flanges (I come from a different world where the output or side flange is what plugs into the differential housing, if there's some other term here in the Lincoln world)?

I'm pulling together a lot of info here. Thanks for everyone's help. Just need to figure out suspension!
 
thoraxe said:
So I'm guessing this means that the various clutch type 8.8 28-spline diffs would work? Stuff like this:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=221

This begs the somewhat obvious question -- what are you using for output flanges (I come from a different world where the output or side flange is what plugs into the differential housing, if there's some other term here in the Lincoln world)?

I'm pulling together a lot of info here. Thanks for everyone's help. Just need to figure out suspension!
Click to expand...

Problem I see and seem to find when talking with people, when bolting the 8.8 internals into the LS case a 8.0 you have a pinion depth problem. A 8.8 case is about a little longer in the pinion area which makes sense as the pinion location is likely moved out/forward .4". Meaning that the pinion shaft itself, case or bearings would have to be modified, potentially weaking the unit and design all together. Perheps weaker than the 8.0 stock unit.

I will have my built diff in hand today or tommorrow with the Ford Racing Traction Lock and 4.10s installed. I'm using a MarkVIII aluminum housing and installing that into the car. My driveshaft (technically I bought a extra) will be modified to bolt to the MarkVIII (very common style) flange. This will eliminte one of the 2 ridiculous rubber driveshaft grommets our power transfers to the wheels though on the LS.

Few weeks from bolt in day.
 
02LSE96LSC91SE84TC said:
Problem I see and seem to find when talking with people, when bolting the 8.8 internals into the LS case a 8.0 you have a pinion depth problem. A 8.8 case is about a little longer in the pinion area which makes sense as the pinion location is likely moved out/forward .4". Meaning that the pinion shaft itself, case or bearings would have to be modified, potentially weaking the unit and design all together. Perheps weaker than the 8.0 stock unit.

I will have my built diff in hand today or tommorrow with the Ford Racing Traction Lock and 4.10s installed. I'm using a MarkVIII aluminum housing and installing that into the car. My driveshaft (technically I bought a extra) will be modified to bolt to the MarkVIII (very common style) flange. This will eliminte one of the 2 ridiculous rubber driveshaft grommets our power transfers to the wheels though on the LS.
Click to expand...

Forgive my ignorance as I'm very new to my LS research.

When you say you're going to use a MarkVIII housing, does this bolt to the LS with no modification? Do the axles bolt up to it?

I'm guessing that the MarkVIII housing is an 8.8"? I'm not worried about a driveshaft as I may go with a one-piece or, as you are, have the stock unit modified to fit whatever goes in the back.

Great information!
 
thoraxe said:
Forgive my ignorance as I'm very new to my LS research.

When you say you're going to use a MarkVIII housing, does this bolt to the LS with no modification? Do the axles bolt up to it?

I'm guessing that the MarkVIII housing is an 8.8"? I'm not worried about a driveshaft as I may go with a one-piece or, as you are, have the stock unit modified to fit whatever goes in the back.

Great information!
Click to expand...

The MarkVIII(yes a 8.8") housing will take some modification to fit. The LS diff cover does bolt right up to the MarkVIII housing, this has been varified and is the rear mount of the center section. Axles fit. The total width of the unit is within a 1/8", so the whole axle to unit relationship we think is good. The front mounting will be a custom pinion brace that I designed. It will attach to the mounting spot of the stock LS unit and span accross the IRS frame also. It will hold the front of the MarkVIII diff securely and much stronger than the stock is held.

You will have problems with the custom driveshaft approach. I started that way and not that it can't be done, it won't be as straight forward as you might think. The LS driveshaft is unique and doesn't seem like driveshaft shops have done much with this style. Mainly the attaching points. They have a 3 bolt design with a pilot bushing in the middle. The driveshaft itself does not connect to the trans or diff directly, there are rubber grommets that connect there. Hard to explain, I can get a pic. Also a straight driveshaft probably won't clean the exhaust shield under the car. This LS has a 2 piece driveshaft with a center bearing in the middle, its not the connect the dots kinda design.
 
Check it out. The power of the car actually transfers though the rubber. Driveshaft bolts to 3 holes, diff/ trans bolts to other 3. Pilot bearing keeps it balanced. Notice the ends are not a pivital u-joint, the attachment at the diff and trans are straight with some flex in the rubber. The angle and bend takes place in the middle of the shaft near the center link. Since the rear is not a moving solid axle there really is no major slip joint in the system, just some rubber flex to take up any body flex. Kinda crazy hey. Also diameters are rather small. Being steel and shafts so short its plenty strong. But if a Lighter weight material was desired likely would need a larger diameter. Can't say for sure for the whole length yet but space is kinda limited by the trans end with the shifter lickage coming through the floor. A custom shaft would perhaps be pretty pricey. I stop persuing that early.

DS1.jpg


DS2.jpg


DS3.jpg
 
Wow that's pretty weird.

Well, I suppose getting the stock shaft modified is just as easy, just need someone competent that can put it together. As for the rubber, if it's not necessary, I'd rather replace it with billet components. It sounds, though, like the rubber actually allows the driveshaft to move.

Here's the thing, though -- My car will probably end up with a Non-Lincoln engine (likely Ford 4.6 3V, 4.6 DOHC, or 4.6 2V, haven't decided). This means a T5 transmission. Is that going to affect whether or not it's easy/hard to get a new driveshaft made?

I'm not worried about clearance to the exhaust. My exhaust will likely be custom.

I'm essentially building a full race car.
 
thoraxe said:
Wow that's pretty weird.

Well, I suppose getting the stock shaft modified is just as easy, just need someone competent that can put it together. As for the rubber, if it's not necessary, I'd rather replace it with billet components. It sounds, though, like the rubber actually allows the driveshaft to move.

Here's the thing, though -- My car will probably end up with a Non-Lincoln engine (likely Ford 4.6 3V, 4.6 DOHC, or 4.6 2V, haven't decided). This means a T5 transmission. Is that going to affect whether or not it's easy/hard to get a new driveshaft made?

I'm not worried about clearance to the exhaust. My exhaust will likely be custom.

I'm essentially building a full race car.
Click to expand...
In the case of a trans and rear swap I would go with a new shaft then. To alter both ends of the stocker wouldn't to me be the best way to go. What you will than have is a very common trans and rear set-up with just a unique length so getting one made would be easy.

What you will need to know is how much room is there in the tunnel. For possibly just a one piece and of coase diameter possiblities. I can't answer that as I haven't pulled the heat shield out to see what other obstacles are hiding (E-brake stuff likely). My decision to just modify the end of the stock set-up really eliminates any fitment problems in the tunnel. If you haven't seen it there is a heat sheild that nearly completely covers the driveshft from end to end making it hard to see what room there is to work with. I don't think exhaust itself would come into play for a 1 piece shaft, likely the sheild.
Even then you would have a very buildable 2 piece unit. Actually with a T5 and 8.8" diff you would just have a modified Mustang situation...if the 1 piece would clear.

I will be pulling the sheild to swap in the new/modified shaft during the swap, then I will have a better insight for what exactly is in the tunnel area under that sheild.
 
Quik LS said:
It's a Torsen T-2 ('99 Cobra, 28 spline fitment) from Reider Racing. They also offered a T-2R, which is a more aggressive "racing" version.

http://www.reiderracing.com/zexeltorsen.htm

I have not yet set the pre-load or back lash yet - so there is still a fair amount of fiddling with shims...
Click to expand...




Did you test fit that 8.8" pinion gear in the 8.0" housing yet??? ;)
 
Thoraxe, when building a full on "race car" there are quite a few things that would usually get in the way of a normal build, that are standard for this type of build. Sometimes doing a very custom build becomes easier in some ways though the workload will increase.

Custom fabrication is a typical thing when building a racing vehicle so any concern about the trans tunnel fitment would turn out to be a minor issue to deal with at worst. Worst case scenario you are looking at eliminating the heat/sound shield relocating any items that may be (though not likely) located under it and then have your custom one piece driveshaft built to spec go fit between whatever trans you go with. I would recommend against the T5 as it doesn't hold crap for real power. For real power go with a T-56 or TKO unit. Then after you have all that figured out you will just fabricate your new exhaust around that and be good to go. Things become much easier when you can design them yourself; because it allows you more ability to make things to your needs instead of dealing with what a manufacturer already made.

Since you plan to drop a built 4.6 in there I just suggest to get rid of all the LS electronics, including gauges, and run that engine standalone with a FAST, Megasquirt, BS3 or so on. Allot of those electronic systems not only add weight, but electronically speaking, get in the way also.

If you are serious about doing this then do not bother with the 3v 4.6. It is a good engine but the 4v 4.6 has a higher power potential. The 2v can be modified to very big power numbers but will still top out lower than the 4v. Where I plan to shoot for close to 850-900rwhp in my 4.6 2v vehicle with twin turbos the same vehicle with a 4v engine would be looking at easily over 1,000+rwhp with comparable mods. I have built some pretty crazy vehicles in my time and I will be the first to say that it will not be anywhere close to cheap. Even if approached from a budget build standpoint you are still looking at roughly $10k to do it properly without a power adder. If you add a turbo or supercharger then add another$5-10k. If you do your own work, especially metal fabwork then you will save allot. I can personally vouch that projects like this can easily surpass the $20k+ mark (not counting labor) and that is not even counting the vehicle cost itself.

I wish you luck with your goals, but I do see allot of people having much bigger eyes early on, then realize they are in over their head and end up not finishing the project.
 
Dude I totally feel where you are coming from. I'm not looking for huge power, actually. I realistically only want 400-500 wheel.

One of my friends runs a 1998 GT with the 2V and a rear-mount turbo, he's very knowledgable about Mustang things. He confirmed my suspicion that for moderate power the 3V is actually the way to go, and is where I'm headed.

I will need the E-brake but I can convert in the long or short run to hydraulic. Worst-case scenario I can relocate the E-brake gizzards inside the cabin to gain clearance.

$10k worth of stuff (not including chassis) is about what I am thinking, but it will realistically end up being, as you say, between $15-20. This project will probably evolve over the course of the year in many different steps. I have some capability myself and with friends and associates to fabricate and wire, but I'm trying to keep that to a relative minimum.

That's why I am trying to stick with the Ford ECM and management for the 3V, if possible. LS1 ECM and management is already basically standalone and you can purchase harnesses that essentially make it so. I am hoping that there is good programmable support for the Ford ECM so that I can go that route, otherwise I will probably go MegaSquirt. FI is not in the plans for the first go-around. Factory gauges and electronic diddles were planned to be nixed before the project started -- no need for ABS, TC, AC, etc. All I will keep inside the dash is the HVAC blower which will be plumbed fixed up to windshield (defrost) and through my helmet (ghetto-rigged cold air).

I don't plan on this getting done soon as it is not looking like I will have a title sponsor for 2008. If I have the chassis, motor, suspension, and diff by the spring, I will be delighted.

Please keep us all posted on the progress of your differential build -- I might want to get one of those front x-members for the diff from you.
 
thoraxe said:
Dude I totally feel where you are coming from. I'm not looking for huge power, actually. I realistically only want 400-500 wheel.

One of my friends runs a 1998 GT with the 2V and a rear-mount turbo, he's very knowledgable about Mustang things. He confirmed my suspicion that for moderate power the 3V is actually the way to go, and is where I'm headed.

I will need the E-brake but I can convert in the long or short run to hydraulic. Worst-case scenario I can relocate the E-brake gizzards inside the cabin to gain clearance.

$10k worth of stuff (not including chassis) is about what I am thinking, but it will realistically end up being, as you say, between $15-20. This project will probably evolve over the course of the year in many different steps. I have some capability myself and with friends and associates to fabricate and wire, but I'm trying to keep that to a relative minimum.

That's why I am trying to stick with the Ford ECM and management for the 3V, if possible. LS1 ECM and management is already basically standalone and you can purchase harnesses that essentially make it so. I am hoping that there is good programmable support for the Ford ECM so that I can go that route, otherwise I will probably go MegaSquirt. FI is not in the plans for the first go-around. Factory gauges and electronic diddles were planned to be nixed before the project started -- no need for ABS, TC, AC, etc. All I will keep inside the dash is the HVAC blower which will be plumbed fixed up to windshield (defrost) and through my helmet (ghetto-rigged cold air).

I don't plan on this getting done soon as it is not looking like I will have a title sponsor for 2008. If I have the chassis, motor, suspension, and diff by the spring, I will be delighted.

Please keep us all posted on the progress of your differential build -- I might want to get one of those front x-members for the diff from you.
Click to expand...



I am telling you now, do not bother with that 3V 4.6. Your Mustang buddy may know a little bit about this stuff and even once did a turbo on his 98 GT, but I would bet the farm that I know much more when it comes to this stuff. That 3V engine is a much more complex design, and also has a much more complex PCM controlling it. If you go the 4v way it will most likely cost less, be simpler, and net you more power more easily. This is coming from a performance shop owner that specializes in forced induction and crazy builds, usually for Ford vehicles as well as being a Ford custom tuner also. For what you say you plan to do I would not go with the 3V 4.6 at all.

Also if 400-500rwhp is your goal then you will not even come close with that 3V and all the goodies while still N/A. You will top out in the mid 300's with the 3V. However, you will come close with that 4V even in N/A form since you say you do not want to do the power adder for a while. Hitting 500rwhp is not easy to do. You have to address allot of things that get expensive. since you said 500rwhp I would say your overall project cost (not counting car) just went up to at least $20k (not counting labor), especially if you want to get somewhere near that while still N/A.

It sounds like you are kind of new to this stuff based upon your statement of "have some capability". With a build like this the only way it will get done properly is if you either know your stuff, and I mean KNOW YOUR STUFF, or have enough money to pay someone else who does. I would say that half of my customers started out as doing a project themselves with allot of friends promising to help but never fully delivering. In the end after the friends have lost interest in the project the person gives up and takes it to me to finish it.

I am not trying to get you down or be a naysayer but I firmly believe that you need a reality check with a few things here. This is coming from a person who has walked the footsteps that you are about to take. My suggestion to make a project this large go smoothly is to wait one full year before doing anything. In that year you will need to make a very in-depth plan. Also you will need to make all your contact for any special services you will need. Another good thing is to make sure that you are able to do most of the work yourself. If you are not a good welder then learn, same with wiring, vehicular engine work, custom fuel systems, tuning and so on. One year may seem like a long time but I have seen people rush things or just not come in fully prepared and run out of money or patience less than 1/2 way through. For example one of my new customers with a Built, cammed and blown 01 Cobra that has been down for more than a year now due to poor planning on his part; and he is a certified Master Mechanic.

One last key phrase is Self Sustainment... Do not rely upon the assumption that friends or coworkers will help you with this project as most will help at first and then find other things to do. Likely more than 80% of this project you will end up doing yourself. Good luck, it looks like it could be a pretty fun build if approached right.
 
I plan on having this thing in my garage on jackstands for a long long time :)

Thanks for the advice! The 4V Cobra motors are much cheaper, you're right. This thread is way off topic from diffs, so I will PM you or see you over on modularfords.com ;)
 
02LSE96LSC91SE84TC said:
What you will need to know is how much room is there in the tunnel. For possibly just a one piece and of coase diameter possiblities.
Click to expand...
If it'll fit in an '05+ Mustang, it should, theoretically, fit in the LS's tunnel. The floorpan of DEW98 is one of the few things that made it into the new Mustang.
 
Quik LS said:
It's a Torsen T-2 ('99 Cobra, 28 spline fitment) from Reider Racing. They also offered a T-2R, which is a more aggressive "racing" version.

http://www.reiderracing.com/zexeltorsen.htm

I have not yet set the pre-load or back lash yet - so there is still a fair amount of fiddling with shims...
Click to expand...

So could I get one of those and just have a shop install it for me?
How hard would it be?
WHat I am worried about is labor cost and shops ability to tweak it to make it work.
 
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